Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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MachineGhost wrote:
Xan wrote:And how exactly would you describe taking a knife to Scripture and hacking out the parts that you don't believe?
Omitting B.S. that isn't supported by history, science, reason and common sense?

All you religious believers do this all ready anyway (especially Muslims). Jefferson just formalized it.
In other words, you want to be like God and worship your own infinite knowledge of truth as you define it? Wow!

And your second statement, what the heck does that even mean? My religion ensures me an eternity of joy, will yours do that for you?

... Mountaineer
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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MachineGhost wrote:
Xan wrote:And how exactly would you describe taking a knife to Scripture and hacking out the parts that you don't believe?
Omitting B.S. that isn't supported by history, science, reason and common sense?
You can read the book in pdf form here for free ...
http://uuhouston.org/files/The_Jefferson_Bible.pdf

As for leaving out what "isn't supported by history", I only needed to read the first few paragraphs to see that Jefferson probably didn't know as much about the historical problems with the New Testament as we do today. He starts with Luke, skipping chapter 1 which contains the annunciations of the births of John the Baptist and Jesus and the virgin birth of Mary. This is fine, but then he starts with Luke chapter 2 and falls immediately into a historical black hole. Problems with the census that supposedly caused Joseph and Mary to travel from Nazareth to Bethlehem are well known today. The date of this census was approximately 10 years before Jesus was born. In addition it doesn't pass the "common sense" test. It's understandable why the author of Luke needs for Joseph to take his pregnant wife Mary on a 70 mile journey to register for the census because that's where one of his ancestors lived a thousand years ago. It's because the Jews believed the messiah would be born in Bethlehem, according to the scriptures, so the narrative had to get Mary there some way. That the Roman Emperor would require such a thing is beyond reasonable belief.

I wonder if he included the nativity story from Matthew which has a completely different account.

If he was writing his New Testament today I think it would be considerably shorter, if he would even attempt it at all.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Xan wrote:So is it good or bad to do that? You seem to be saying it's bad when Mountaineer does it but good when you do it.
I don't like hypocritcalism. The excerpts by Jefferson were from the Bible -- the same source Mountaineer professes to literally believe in. So what he said -- which was an ad hominem attack against Jefferson -- was just ridiculous. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bathwater! It's the exact same Bible just without all the irrational or mystical B.S.. But, I don't take all of the bloody thing as the literal word of "God" rather than the revised and edited work of many, many flawed humans.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote:In other words, you want to be like God and worship your own infinite knowledge of truth as you define it? Wow!

And your second statement, what the heck does that even mean? My religion ensures me an eternity of joy, will yours do that for you?
If you want to put it that way, then yes. I kowtow to no one. And I believe your "God" would approve for that is why we were made. (I can see your head twisting all the way around as in The Exorcist right now).

It means y'all ignore the parts that Jefferson formally excluded anyway. So its pointless to go off about it. And you ain't being ensured of anything but the self-delusions of your own mind, bunko. Even me.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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MachineGhost wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:In other words, you want to be like God and worship your own infinite knowledge of truth as you define it? Wow!

And your second statement, what the heck does that even mean? My religion ensures me an eternity of joy, will yours do that for you?
If you want to put it that way, then yes. I kowtow to no one. And I believe your "God" would approve for that is why we were made.

It means y'all ignore the parts that Jefferson formally excluded anyway. So its pointless to go off about it. And you ain't being ensured of anything but the self-delusions of your own mind, bunko. Even me.
I do not understand how you can say I take the Bibe as inerrant, and then a breath later say that y'all (I ?) ignore the parts Jefferson formally excluded. What am I missing? I really would like to understand where you are coming from, even if I disagree with where you shake out. Also, why are you so sure I'm not ensured? You make such an absolute statement about it? In other words, you are right and I'm wrong .... with no proof offered other than you are sure of your thoughts? Don't you see that logic seems really odd?

... M
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:In other words, you want to be like God and worship your own infinite knowledge of truth as you define it? Wow!

And your second statement, what the heck does that even mean? My religion ensures me an eternity of joy, will yours do that for you?
If you want to put it that way, then yes. I kowtow to no one. And I believe your "God" would approve for that is why we were made.

It means y'all ignore the parts that Jefferson formally excluded anyway. So its pointless to go off about it. And you ain't being ensured of anything but the self-delusions of your own mind, bunko. Even me.
I do not understand how you can say I take the Bibe as inerrant, and then a breath later say that y'all (I ?) ignore the parts Jefferson formally excluded. What am I missing? I really would like to understand where you are coming from, even if I disagree with where you shake out. Also, why are you so sure I'm not ensured? You make such an absolute statement about it? In other words, you are right and I'm wrong .... with no proof offered other than you are sure of your thoughts? Don't you see that logic seems really odd?

... M
I don't think MG meant that you ignore the parts that Jefferson excluded. Those are probably parts that you most definitely affirm.

There are a lot of parts that Christian fundamentalists do tend to ignore and/or explain away however. For example, verses like women keeping silent in churches and wearing head coverings when they pray or prophesy (I know Christians who do this), slaves submitting to their masters, etcetera. Even sayings of Jesus like not being able to be his disciple unless you hate your own family. I could go on. To their credit, when it comes to verses like these, even most fundamentalists are willing to think for themselves and relax their strict reading of the Bible.

The most glaring example to me however, is the character of God in the Old Testament. How did he go from being that petty, vindictive, tyrant to being our loving father? This takes a great stretch of the imagination in MY book. I always wonder which part of the Holy Trinity that character was supposed to be.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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curlew wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:
If you want to put it that way, then yes. I kowtow to no one. And I believe your "God" would approve for that is why we were made.

It means y'all ignore the parts that Jefferson formally excluded anyway. So its pointless to go off about it. And you ain't being ensured of anything but the self-delusions of your own mind, bunko. Even me.
I do not understand how you can say I take the Bibe as inerrant, and then a breath later say that y'all (I ?) ignore the parts Jefferson formally excluded. What am I missing? I really would like to understand where you are coming from, even if I disagree with where you shake out. Also, why are you so sure I'm not ensured? You make such an absolute statement about it? In other words, you are right and I'm wrong .... with no proof offered other than you are sure of your thoughts? Don't you see that logic seems really odd?

... M
I don't think MG meant that you ignore the parts that Jefferson excluded. Those are probably parts that you most definitely affirm.

There are a lot of parts that Christian fundamentalists do tend to ignore and/or explain away however. For example, verses like women keeping silent in churches and wearing head coverings when they pray or prophesy (I know Christians who do this), slaves submitting to their masters, etcetera. Even sayings of Jesus like not being able to be his disciple unless you hate your own family. I could go on. To their credit, when it comes to verses like these, even most fundamentalists are willing to think for themselves and relax their strict reading of the Bible.

The most glaring example to me however, is the character of God in the Old Testament. How did he go from being that petty, vindictive, tyrant to being our loving father? This takes a great stretch of the imagination in MY book. I always wonder which part of the Holy Trinity that character was supposed to be.
curlew,

Thanks for commenting. Your perspective is a lot like mine used to be. Then I came to understand how important it is to hear the Word proclaimed faithfully, in context, rather than cherry pick verses. I've heard way too many preachers pick a verse out of context to fit some agenda they are trying to endorse (e.g raise money for some cause) rather than preach God's Word faithfully. Context to Holy Scripture interpretation is like location to a realtor .... I remember the old cliche on how to select a new home .... location, location, location. I think most "battles" in Christian history are over interpretation; same old story that has been in play since God's Word was recorded. Context to me being when was the book written, to whom, why, did it apply only to the Jews, gentiles, nations, or everyone for all time, did it apply before or after Christ was incarnated, is the interpretation Christocentric, is one reading the NT from the perspective of the OT or vice versa, how big of a context is the verse connected or related to - the sentence, the paragraph, the Book, the whole Bible and how is that determined, etc. So, context, context, context. One of the best books I've read on how to interpret Holy Scripture is https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/236 ... _This_Mean_ but, it is not a light read for under an umbrella at the beach. ;)

... Mountaineer
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote: Thanks for commenting. Your perspective is a lot like mine used to be. Then I came to understand how important it is to hear the Word proclaimed faithfully, in context, rather than cherry pick verses. I've heard way too many preachers pick a verse out of context to fit some agenda they are trying to endorse (e.g raise money for some cause) rather than preach God's Word faithfully. Context to Holy Scripture interpretation is like location to a realtor .... I remember the old cliche on how to select a new home .... location, location, location. I think most "battles" in Christian history are over interpretation; same old story that has been in play since God's Word was recorded. Context to me being when was the book written, to whom, why, did it apply only to the Jews, gentiles, nations, or everyone for all time, did it apply before or after Christ was incarnated, is the interpretation Christocentric, is one reading the NT from the perspective of the OT or vice versa, how big of a context is the verse connected or related to - the sentence, the paragraph, the Book, the whole Bible and how is that determined, etc. So, context, context, context. One of the best books I've read on how to interpret Holy Scripture is https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/236 ... _This_Mean_ but, it is not a light read for under an umbrella at the beach. ;)
... Mountaineer
When I was a Christian I had a very simplistic view of the Bible. I thought that God could say to me whatever it was that he wanted to say through the available English translations and I didn't need to learn Greek and Hebrew or go to school and learn principles of interpretation and other such things.

In other words, when God said that he wanted all those Amalekites killed, including the "men, women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys", he did not provide any reason or context. I just took it to mean, "this is who I am and what I want to do and I am God so live with it". I have read explanations for why he might have decreed such a thing but I haven't been impressed by any of them. How would you, as a Christian defend that decree?
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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curlew wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: Thanks for commenting. Your perspective is a lot like mine used to be. Then I came to understand how important it is to hear the Word proclaimed faithfully, in context, rather than cherry pick verses. I've heard way too many preachers pick a verse out of context to fit some agenda they are trying to endorse (e.g raise money for some cause) rather than preach God's Word faithfully. Context to Holy Scripture interpretation is like location to a realtor .... I remember the old cliche on how to select a new home .... location, location, location. I think most "battles" in Christian history are over interpretation; same old story that has been in play since God's Word was recorded. Context to me being when was the book written, to whom, why, did it apply only to the Jews, gentiles, nations, or everyone for all time, did it apply before or after Christ was incarnated, is the interpretation Christocentric, is one reading the NT from the perspective of the OT or vice versa, how big of a context is the verse connected or related to - the sentence, the paragraph, the Book, the whole Bible and how is that determined, etc. So, context, context, context. One of the best books I've read on how to interpret Holy Scripture is https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/236 ... _This_Mean_ but, it is not a light read for under an umbrella at the beach. ;)
... Mountaineer
When I was a Christian I had a very simplistic view of the Bible. I thought that God could say to me whatever it was that he wanted to say through the available English translations and I didn't need to learn Greek and Hebrew or go to school and learn principles of interpretation and other such things.

In other words, when God said that he wanted all those Amalekites killed, including the "men, women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys", he did not provide any reason or context. I just took it to mean, "this is who I am and what I want to do and I am God so live with it". I have read explanations for why he might have decreed such a thing but I haven't been impressed by any of them. How would you, as a Christian defend that decree?
curlew,

My take on the answer to your question (I assume you are refering to 1 Samuel 15, much of it copied below in order to understand the context): I may be wrong, but I think this is one of the rare times God commanded temporal military action against others. In this instance, for ancient Israel, it was God’s way of giving His people the land He had promised them and taking it from a people who for centuries had turned their backs on God and engaged in the vilest practices. Divine warfare is God’s means for saving his chosen people. For the sake of OT Israel, God engaged in temporal and national warfare, while for the salvation of all believers of both Testaments, God won the spiritual war through the physical death of Jesus on the cross and his bodily resurrection. Without this divine warfare, mankind would have been doomed to eternity in hell, but God’s warfare enabled Israel to inherit the promised land, and his victory on the cross has made all believers heirs of eternal life in the new heavens and new earth. Note that God punished both the Amelekites and Saul for not doing what he commanded. He chose the people, Israel, to bring Christ, as promised in Genesis 3:15, to save the world from sin and death. Also note God spared the Kenites because they were kind to the Israelites. Bottom line for this account: repent, have faith in the Word of God, try to live by his commandments full well knowing all will fall short, and know believers are saved for the sake of what Christ did on the cross, let God be God, accept what He has chosen to reveal to us, don't dwell on the things Satan puts in our path to question God's motives, focus on what God has revealed which is sufficient.

... Mountaineer

1 Samuel 15: 1And Samuel said to Saul, “ The LORD sent me to banoint you king over his people Israel; now therefore listen to the words of the LORD. 2Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’” 4So Saul summoned the people and numbered them in Telaim, two hundred thousand men on foot, and ten thousand men of Judah. 5And Saul came to the city of Amalek and lay in wait in the valley. 6Then Saul said to the Kenites, “Go, depart; go down from among the Amalekites, lest I destroy you with them. For you showed kindness to all the people of Israel when they came up out of Egypt.” So the Kenites departed from among the Amalekites. 7And Saul defeated the Amalekites from Havilah as far as Shur, which is east of Egypt. 8And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive and devoted to destruction all the people with the edge of the sword. 9But Saul and the people spared Agag and the best of the sheep and of the oxen and of the fattened calves and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them. All that was despised and worthless they devoted to destruction. 10The word of the LORD came to Samuel: 11“ I regret that I have made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me and has not performed my commandments.” And Samuel was angry, and he cried to the LORD all night. 12And Samuel rose early to meet Saul in the morning. And it was told Samuel, “Saul came to Carmel, and behold, he set up a monument for himself and turned and passed on and went down to Gilgal.” 13And Samuel came to Saul, and Saul said to him, “ Blessed be you to the LORD. I have performed the commandment of the LORD.” 14And Samuel said, “What then is this bleating of the sheep in my ears and the lowing of the oxen that I hear?” 15Saul said, “They have brought them from the Amalekites, for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen to sacrifice to the LORD your God, and the rest we have devoted to destruction.” 16Then Samuel said to Saul, “Stop! I will tell you what the LORD said to me this night.” And he said to him, “Speak.” 17And Samuel said, “ Though you are little in your own eyes, are you not the head of the tribes of Israel? The LORD anointed you king over Israel. 18And the LORD sent you on a mission and said, ‘Go, devote to destruction the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed.’ 19Why then did you not obey the voice of the LORD? Why did you pounce on the spoil and do what was evil in the sight of the LORD?” 20And Saul said to Samuel, “ I have obeyed the voice of the LORD. I have gone on the mission on which the LORD sent me. I have brought Agag the king of Amalek, and I have devoted the Amalekites to destruction. 21But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the best of the things devoted to destruction, to sacrifice to the LORD your God in Gilgal.” 22And Samuel said, “ Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to listen than the fat of rams. 23For rebellion is as the sin of divination, and presumption is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the LORD, he has also rejected you from being king.” 24Saul said to Samuel, “ I have sinned, for I have transgressed the commandment of the LORD and your words, because I feared the people and obeyed their voice. 25Now therefore, please pardon my sin and return with me that I may worship the LORD.” 26And Samuel said to Saul, “I will not return with you. For you have rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD has rejected you from being king over Israel.” 27As Samuel turned to go away, Saul seized the skirt of his robe, and it tore. 28And Samuel said to him, “ The LORD has torn the kingdom of Israel from you this day and has given it to a neighbor of yours, who is better than you. 29And also the Glory of Israel will not lie or have regret, for he is not a man, that he should have regret.” 30Then he said, “I have sinned; yet honor me now before the elders of my people and before Israel, and return with me, that I may bow before the LORD your God.” 31So Samuel turned back after Saul, and Saul bowed before the LORD. 32Then Samuel said, “Bring here to me Agag the king of the Amalekites.” And Agag came to him cheerfully. 3 Agag said, “Surely the bitterness of death is past.” 33And Samuel said, “ As your sword has made women childless, so shall your mother be childless among women.” And Samuel hacked Agag to pieces before the LORD in Gilgal. 34Then Samuel went to Ramah, and Saul went up to his house in Gibeah of Saul. 35And Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the LORD regretted that he had made Saul king over Israel.

Various, Authors (2009-03-01). The Lutheran Study Bible. Concordia Publishing House. Kindle Edition.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote: ‘I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”
Various, Authors (2009-03-01). The Lutheran Study Bible. Concordia Publishing House. Kindle Edition.
I was walking outside around the office building with my friend and co-worker this morning, as we do every day. He is a devout Christian who does a lot of good works with his church without bragging about it. He probably thinks I am a Christian too because of things I have said. I am not one to challenge another person's beliefs unless they insist on sharing them with me and converting me to their religion.

We came to a small turtle who obviously found himself on the wrong side of the road and was trying to get back. I told him about some turtles I once found in a similar situation and how I took them over to a nearby river and let them go. We thought about picking the turtle up and helping it on its way but didn't do it. We repeated our walk in the afternoon and discovered the turtle crushed in the middle of the road. We both felt bad.

Obviously we weren't as "holy" as the God of the Old Testament who cared not a whit about ordering the killing of "man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey". I have no idea what would have happened to any turtles who were in the Amalekite camp.

(And BTW, I was laid off this afternoon so I won't be taking those walks with my friend starting on Monday. I'm now, at least, semi-retired).
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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curlew,

Getting a pink slip sucks. My very best wishes for your future.

... Mountaineer
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote:curlew,

Getting a pink slip sucks. My very best wishes for your future.

... Mountaineer
I knew it was coming eventually though it was a few months premature so no big deal. It seemed to bother the folks who had to deal with my termination more than it did me so I kept trying to re-assure them it was okay (others in my position who were younger and not ready to retire probably didn't feel the same way).

But back to the Amalekites. Are you really okay with exterminating man, woman, children, infants, sheep, etcetera? If you had been there do you think you would have had any problems with carrying out those orders from God via the prophet Samuel?

I suspect that's a very hard question to answer (unless you are a complete asshole) so take all the time you need to answer.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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curlew wrote:
Mountaineer wrote:curlew,

Getting a pink slip sucks. My very best wishes for your future.

... Mountaineer
I knew it was coming eventually though it was a few months premature so no big deal. It seemed to bother the folks who had to deal with my termination more than it did me so I kept trying to re-assure them it was okay (others in my position who were younger and not ready to retire probably didn't feel the same way).

But back to the Amalekites. Are you really okay with exterminating man, woman, children, infants, sheep, etcetera? If you had been there do you think you would have had any problems with carrying out those orders from God via the prophet Samuel?

I suspect that's a very hard question to answer (unless you are a complete asshole) so take all the time you need to answer.
Not hard to answer at all, at least for a logical Christian. My points (first two from a logical perspective, the last from a Christian perspective):

1. I already gave the context for what happened, and my take on it. Asking the same question over and over and expecting a different answer is one definition of insanity.

2. Framing questions in the manner you did is a logical fallacy called a loaded question ... I typically do not respond to those types of questions. In my opinion, those type of questions reveal much about the asker and frequently indicate a closed mind. http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

3. I was not there; I try not to speculate or respond to hypothetical questions about the mind of God. In other words, I try to let God be God and recognize that everthing I have, including my reason and my faith, are gifts from Him. He is the Creator, I'm the creature. The creature, no matter how hard he tries, is not the Triune God. Thanks be to God, I am baptized, I am forgiven, I am a child of God. Looking for answers about God outside of the revealed Word of God (the gospel preached, the sacraments, Holy Scripture) puts one on a path to destruction; Satan is laughing.

Blessings dude, I hope you find the lighted path and get out of the darkness. Perhaps semi-retirement will allow time for much contemplation and reflection on what is truly important. Oratio, meditatio, tentatio.

... Mountaineer
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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Mountaineer wrote: 1. I already gave the context for what happened, and my take on it. Asking the same question over and over and expecting a different answer is one definition of insanity.

Blessings dude, I hope you find the lighted path and get out of the darkness. Perhaps semi-retirement will allow time for much contemplation and reflection on what is truly important. Oratio, meditatio, tentatio.

... Mountaineer
Okay, I get that you believe racial genocide can be justified "in context". I'm sure that ISIS agrees with you.

I'll stick with my darkness, thank you.

Te futueo et caballum tuum
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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curlew wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: 1. I already gave the context for what happened, and my take on it. Asking the same question over and over and expecting a different answer is one definition of insanity.

Blessings dude, I hope you find the lighted path and get out of the darkness. Perhaps semi-retirement will allow time for much contemplation and reflection on what is truly important. Oratio, meditatio, tentatio.

... Mountaineer
Okay, I get that you believe racial genocide can be justified "in context". I'm sure that ISIS agrees with you.

I'll stick with my darkness, thank you.

Te futueo et caballum tuum
curlew,

Truly sad, in both the human common courtesy secular sense as well as the mocking God sense. I'm continuing to pray for you. Not only do you not underwhat is written (or don't wish to admit it which I suspect is the more likely case), you continue with the ad hominum attacks. Hopefully, you will have some time in your semi-retirement to reflect on your future and how you wish to spend eternity. May God have mercy on you.

I noticed you cut out much of my last response to you in the above. Hit too close to home for you?

Blessings, ... Mountaineer
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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The Sixth Petition of the Lord's Prayer:

"And lead us not into temptation."

What does this mean?

Short Answer:
God, indeed, tempts no one; but we pray in this petition that God would guard and keep us, so that the devil, the world, and our flesh may not deceive us, nor seduce us into misbelief, despair, and other great shame and vice; and though we be assailed by them, that still we may finally overcome and gain the victory.

Long Answer:
100] We have now heard enough what toil and labor is required to retain all that for which we pray, and to persevere therein, which, however, is not achieved without infirmities and stumbling. Besides, although we have received forgiveness and a good conscience and are entirely acquitted, yet is our life of such a nature that one stands to-day and to-morrow falls. Therefore, even though we be godly now and stand before God with a good conscience, we must pray again that He would not suffer us to relapse and yield to trials and temptations.

101] Temptation, however, or (as our Saxons in olden times used to call it) Bekoerunge, is of three kinds, namely, of the flesh, of the world, and of the devil.

102] For in the flesh we dwell and carry the old Adam about our neck, who exerts himself and incites us daily to inchastity, laziness, gluttony and drunkenness, avarice and deception, to defraud our neighbor and to overcharge him, and, in short, to all manner of evil lusts which cleave to us by nature, and to which we are incited by the society, example and what we hear and see of other people, which often wound and inflame even an innocent heart.

103] Next comes the world, which offends us in word and deed, and impels us to anger, and impatience. In short, there is nothing but hatred and envy, enmity, violence and wrong, unfaithfulness, vengeance, cursing, raillery, slander, pride and haughtiness, with superfluous finery, honor, fame, and power, where no one is willing to be the least, but every one desires to sit at the head and to be seen before all.

104] Then comes the devil, inciting and provoking in all directions, but especially agitating matters that concern the conscience and spiritual affairs, namely, to induce us to despise and disregard both the Word and works of God, to tear us away from faith, hope, and love, and bring us into misbelief, false security, and obduracy, or, on the other hand, to despair, denial of God, blasphemy, and innumerable other shocking things. These are indeed snares and nets, yea, real fiery darts which are shot most venomously into the heart, not by flesh and blood, but by the devil.

105] Great and grievous, indeed, are these dangers and temptations which every Christian must bear, even though each one were alone by himself, so that every hour that we are in this vile life where we are attacked on all sides, chased and hunted down, we are moved to cry out and to pray that God would not suffer us to become weary and faint and to relapse into sin, shame, and unbelief. For otherwise it is impossible to overcome even the least temptation.

106] This, then, is leading us not into temptation, to wit, when He gives us power and strength to resist, the temptation, however, not being taken away or removed. For while we live in the flesh and have the devil about us, no one can escape temptation and allurements; and it cannot be otherwise than that we must endure trials, yea, be engulfed in them; but we pray for this, that we may not fall and be drowned in them.

107] To feel temptation is therefore a far different thing from consenting or yielding to it. We must all feel it, although not all in the same manner, but some in a greater degree and more severely than others; as, the young suffer especially from the flesh, afterwards, they that attain to middle life and old age, from the world, but others who are occupied with spiritual matters, that is, strong Christians, from the devil.

108] But such feeling, as long as it is against our will and we would rather be rid of it, can harm no one. For if we did not feel it, it could not be called a temptation. But to consent thereto is when we give it the reins and do not resist or pray against it.

109] Therefore we Christians must be armed and daily expect to be incessantly attacked, in order that no one may go on in security and heedlessly, as though the devil were far from us, but at all times expect and parry his blows. For though I am now chaste, patient, kind, and in firm faith, the devil will this very hour send such an arrow into my heart that I can scarcely stand. For he is an enemy that never desists nor becomes tired, so that when one temptation ceases, there always arise others and fresh ones.

110] Accordingly, there is no help or comfort except to run hither and to take hold of the Lord's Prayer, and thus speak to God from the heart: Dear Father, Thou hast bidden me pray; let me not relapse because of temptations. Then you will see that they must desist, and finally acknowledge themselves conquered.

111] Else if you venture to help yourself by your own thoughts and counsel, you will only make the matter worse and give the devil more space. For he has a serpent's head, which if it gain an opening into which he can slip, the whole body will follow without check. But prayer can prevent him and drive him back.

Ref: http://bookofconcord.org/smallcatechism.php
Ref: http://bookofconcord.org/lc-5-ourfather.php
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by curlew »

Mountaineer wrote: I noticed you cut out much of my last response to you in the above. Hit too close to home for you?
... Mountaineer
I didn't read the rest of it. Anyone who believes that racial genocide is okay when it is ordered by the ancient tribal deity has nothing more to say to me that I am remotely interested in.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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curlew wrote:
Mountaineer wrote: I noticed you cut out much of my last response to you in the above. Hit too close to home for you?
... Mountaineer
I didn't read the rest of it. Anyone who believes that racial genocide is okay when it is ordered by the ancient tribal deity has nothing more to say to me that I am remotely interested in.
curlew, I hope you don't mind, but here is the rest of my post you eliminated above. Blessings Dude!

"Truly sad, in both the human common courtesy secular sense as well as the mocking God sense. I'm continuing to pray for you. Not only do you not understand what is written (or don't wish to admit it which I suspect is the more likely case), you continue with the ad hominum attacks. Hopefully, you will have some time in your semi-retirement to reflect on your future and how you wish to spend eternity. May God have mercy on you."

Hope you have a marvelous time on this day God has made, and rejoice in it. Enjoy the time you have on this earth. Hug someone. Smile at someone. Do something unexpected to benefit someone. You might even enjoy it. :)

... Mountaineer
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Xan »

Just published yesterday, this comic is amazingly on-the-mark for this discussion:
http://adam4d.com/god-not-done/
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

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"Poor is the pupil who does not surpass his master." -- Leonardo da Vinci
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Cortopassi »

Religion and politics and investing! I see in the past few pages some similarities in discussions I've had over Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners...

I like reading this thread, but will never have the balls to post anything more than I am now. I respect any position, or lack of position, on religion, as long as you don't try to press your beliefs, or non-beliefs, on me. Don't try to convert me or hurt me or kill me for my beliefs and I'll do the same.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

Cortopassi wrote:Religion and politics and investing! I see in the past few pages some similarities in discussions I've had over Thanksgiving and Christmas dinners...

I like reading this thread, but will never have the balls to post anything more than I am now. I respect any position, or lack of position, on religion, as long as you don't try to press your beliefs, or non-beliefs, on me. Don't try to convert me or hurt me or kill me for my beliefs and I'll do the same.
Sounds like a plan - including the same principle for the investing and politics parts as for religion! However, you are surely aware that the ONLY ways to investing nirvana, political perfection, and religious salvation are ............................ ;) ;)

But, supplements are another matter entirely. Anything goes. ;) ;)

... Mountaineer
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by curlew »

Xan wrote:Just published yesterday, this comic is amazingly on-the-mark for this discussion:
http://adam4d.com/god-not-done/
If Jehovah, Yahweh or whatever you wish to call him truly is the creator and supreme ruler of the universe that Christians and Jews believe him to be then I guess you can make the argument that he can kill whomever he damn well pleases if that floats your boat. Like Nixon said, if the president of the United States does it then it's not illegal.

However, I must object that you are assuming facts not in evidence when you assert that this malevolent tribal god of the Old Testament is who you think he is.

(And for that matter I have the same objection about whether the worldwide deluge or the slaying of the Amalekites even happened).
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Kriegsspiel »

curlew wrote:
Xan wrote:Just published yesterday, this comic is amazingly on-the-mark for this discussion:
http://adam4d.com/god-not-done/
If Jehovah, Yahweh or whatever you wish to call him truly is the creator and supreme ruler of the universe that Christians and Jews believe him to be then I guess you can make the argument that he can kill whomever he damn well pleases if that floats your boat. Like Nixon said, if the president of the United States does it then it's not illegal.

However, I must object that you are assuming facts not in evidence when you assert that this malevolent tribal god of the Old Testament is who you think he is.

(And for that matter I have the same objection about whether the worldwide deluge or the slaying of the Amalekites even happened).
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Re: Figuring Out Religion

Post by Mountaineer »

This may be of interest to some. 10 facts about 12 major religions

These pages summarise the main features of the 12 largest world religions, which together are followed by almost 80% of the world’s population. These beliefs are described without passing any judgment on their truth or otherwise. Not included here are so-called “tribal” and African religions (6%), spiritism, the Eastern religions Cao Dai and Juche (less than 1% in total) and non religious (16%). Source for numbers is http://www.adherents.com.

http://www.is-there-a-god.info/belief/10-facts/

... Mountaineer
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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