This Forum & Dissenting Opinions of the HBPP

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barrett
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This Forum & Dissenting Opinions of the HBPP

Post by barrett » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:09 am

With the apparent departure of mathjack this morning, I think it's important to have an honest (hopefully civil!) discussion about whether or not dissenting views of the HBPP are really welcome on this forum. My own opinion is that we discuss many different asset allocations and that most of us don't consider the 4X25 PP as sacred. But I am also giving the book "Mistakes Were Made (But Not By Me)" a re-read, and I am aware that it's possible for anyone to get really dug in and defend their own views no matter how much it seems obvious to others that they are just plain wrong.

So, what do people think?
Last edited by barrett on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
dutchtraffic
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Re: This Forum & Dissenting Opinions of the HBPP

Post by dutchtraffic » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:25 am

Critical views should be there, silly question ofc (I have plenty about the PP), it's a different thing to dedicate your life to it and repeating the same (nonsense) in 489.000 posts.
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Pointedstick
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Re: This Forum & Dissenting Opinions of the HBPP

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:02 am

I volunteer to offer another dissenting voice at times. Here's one:

We have three PP assets poised to return very little over the short-to-medium term: stocks, bonds, and cash. Gold's decline gives it a lot of room to bounce, but can it offset the rest of the portfolio? And what could reverse its decline that wouldn't bode ill for at least one other PP asset, stocks?
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mukramesh
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Re: This Forum & Dissenting Opinions of the HBPP

Post by mukramesh » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:35 am

The following is my opinion only:

Dissenting opinions = fine
Thread jacking = Depends on the circumstance. Sometimes it happens accidentally and often times not a big deal.
Purposely thread jacking every thread = Absolutely not fine and ban-worthy
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ochotona
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Re: This Forum & Dissenting Opinions of the HBPP

Post by ochotona » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:42 am

This entire forum has been a breath of fresh compared to the financial industry, and even compared to Bogleheads, which can be terribly rigid, some of the participants there are way judgmental and harsh. I've looked at a few of the threads there, and just shook my head. Constructive and civil conversations here have been extremely valuable to me from the first date I posted, and I have been into this less than a year and I have already completely re-done my financial life, and I have great hopes for the future. I think the tools here could really prevent me and many of us from ruin in the future. The most useful threads have been those which don't hew to HBPP Orthodoxy:

Mixes other than 4 x 25
Backtesting
Momentum
Risk Parity
Desert Portfolio
Tyler's Charts

and on and on...

Therefore, I'd be very sad if idea filters were to be applied which would squelch non-orthodox "dissent". That being said, I think ground rules could be established and enforced to keep the frustration level to a slow boil or less. I think it's perfectly OK to put particular members on Moderate status if their netiquette skills just aren't there. Some people of high IQ just don't have EQ, especially online.
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Re: This Forum & Dissenting Opinions of the HBPP

Post by Pointedstick » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:51 am

Nobody minds dissent. Dissent strengthens our arguments and I can name a number of people who still hang out here who have decided to abandon the PP for something else and offer their opinions on the matter but are still nice and respectful. I think it's some kind of crazy delusion to imagine that this forum is and has been nothing but rah-rah cheerleading. Most of the dissent has generally been calm and constructive; maybe that's the problem. I think some people don't perceive an opinion as dissenting unless it's aggressive or angry. That's not how we like to do things here.
Last edited by Pointedstick on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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I Shrugged
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Re: This Forum & Dissenting Opinions of the HBPP

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:53 am

Great comments so far.  I don't think MJ means harm at all, but he was drastically overdoing it.  Like me, he might have a bit of addictive internet disorder in which he gets hooked on an interest area and then can't get enough of discussing it on the internet.  I've really toned that down in the past couple of years, but I did have problems with this in the past.  The problem is not the internet forums per se; but they enable and amplify the hyperfocusing on some thing of interest.

Sometimes I used to wish there could be a setting which would have limited me to one post per day.  This was elsewhere, not here.

Bottom line, we don't want groupthink.  We want free inquiry, challenging thinking, and all that.  We just can't let someone who has a problem go overboard.  I don't know if MJ stopped himself, or got banned, or what, but he does have a problem.  It's not a horrible one, but it does affect the rest of us.
Last edited by I Shrugged on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: This Forum & Dissenting Opinions of the HBPP

Post by MachineGhost » Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:59 am

barrett wrote: So, what do people think?
Mathjak appears to have a problem following proper forum etiquette, not the content of his ideas.  He comes across and acts like a n00b, but my understanding is he's been discussing other topics in other forums for at least several years, so either he stubbornly refuses to conform to social norms and/or he's trolling out of an inferiority complex.  Or possibly an addiction as I Shrugged mentioned, which seems to be very common in the newly retired.  They need to fill in their empty time.

I really hope he reconsiders leaving, but if he's going to view everything as a personal attack on his ideas, he may not perceive the real problem and fix his dishonorable behavior.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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l82start
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Re: This Forum & Dissenting Opinions of the HBPP

Post by l82start » Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:06 pm

mj has made some valuable contributions, one of the benefits of having a laser like obsessive focus, is the interesting things it allows you to dig into in a level of detail that no one else would bother to pursue, it also has resulted in similarly  excessive amount of bad internet etiquette, MJ is not banned he is being asked to refrain from thread jacking, insulting and using ad hominem attacks against fellow members, no different than what is asked of all pp forum members.

dissent is encouraged... civil, educational, polite, fun, dissent.... as much as you want,

as a matter of good forum netiquette when answering new members questions please help new members understand the PP its concepts its philosophy and the practical ins and outs of investing completely before diving into (or just link to) advanced debates about contrarian ideas, this form has a tradition of being a helpful and informative place for beginners ...that it is up to us to maintain..
“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.” ― Mark Twain

Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
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Re: This Forum & Dissenting Opinions of the HBPP

Post by Kbg » Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:41 pm

I agree MJ made some good comments, but at least in the threads I read he would constantly assert something and never bring any proof/data to the table. There is no real proof for anything when it comes to financial stuff, but you can bring data, an academic article, a blog post...something to back up what you are saying.
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Re: This Forum & Dissenting Opinions of the HBPP

Post by technovelist » Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:50 pm

Pointedstick wrote: Nobody minds dissent. Dissent strengthens our arguments and I can name a number of people who still hang out here who have decided to abandon the PP for something else and offer their opinions on the matter but are still nice and respectful. I think it's some kind of crazy delusion to imagine that this forum is and has been nothing but rah-rah cheerleading. Most of the dissent has generally been calm and constructive; maybe that's the problem. I think some people don't perceive an opinion as dissenting unless it's aggressive or angry. That's now how we like to do things here.
+1 from a PP heretic.  :P
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Re: This Forum & Dissenting Opinions of the HBPP

Post by lordmetroid » Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:42 pm

I very much like dissenting opinions. No point in having a discussion with a bunch of yes-men in an echo chamber.
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