Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:15 pm

dualstow wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 1:19 pm



To be pro-Ukraine, however, has nothing to do with bloodlust. it’s just the opposite. If Putin has his way, he will not stop with Ukraine.


What you wrote above, most of which I did not quote, was one of your top posts ever here, Dualstow!

Now on to what I left as a quote .... if Putin had been able to take over Ukraine in the manner he originally envisioned .... what do you believe he would have done next?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:39 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:15 pm
... if Putin had been able to take over Ukraine in the manner he originally envisioned .... what do you believe he would have done next?
There are duped westerners experts who see him eyeing the former bloc states. And, those old bloc states see it, too.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:03 am

dualstow wrote:
Mon Nov 28, 2022 7:39 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Nov 27, 2022 2:15 pm

... if Putin had been able to take over Ukraine in the manner he originally envisioned .... what do you believe he would have done next?

There are duped westerners experts who see him eyeing the former bloc states. And, those old bloc states see it, too.


Are any / all of them NOT in NATO?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:58 am

Good question. I haven’t looked at the NATO membership list for a while.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by boglerdude » Mon Nov 28, 2022 9:14 pm

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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:09 pm

Watching ‘How War in Ukraine is Destroying Russia’ https://youtu.be/f1WFrsz4g14
Thanks!
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:20 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:09 pm



Watching ‘How War in Ukraine is Destroying Russia’ https://youtu.be/f1WFrsz4g14
Thanks!


Timely for me you sending this here just now. I am about to start some no mind work on my computer which allows me to listen to this without having my brain elsewhere.

But it IS going to require me to stop listening to Blue Oyster Cult's -- Don't Fear The Reaper (live version)!
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Tue Nov 29, 2022 1:10 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 12:09 pm



Watching ‘How War in Ukraine is Destroying Russia’ https://youtu.be/f1WFrsz4g14
Thanks!


Since it was so short (22 minutes) I just finished listening to it twice. Its content was quite good, telling me nothing I already knew and all I did not know.

However the content was truncated by an initial 30 second commercial for the author's other streaming site and then the last 6+ minutes during the same. And, during those 6+ minutes he went absolutely wild in the hyperbole department to describe all he was selling.

Now back to commercial-free Lex!
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:23 pm

That’s Led.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Tue Nov 29, 2022 8:23 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Nov 29, 2022 5:23 pm

That’s Led.


You are correct! Here it IS!
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:29 am

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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:43 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:29 am

Closer to the Truth


Quite a set of opinions!

His named looked familiar so I wanted to read more about him. Here are some nuggets regarding this highly intelligent, educated, experienced person:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Craig_Roberts

Nonetheless, his singular zealousness for supply-side economics provoked ire in some quarters within the government, with Larry Kudlow – then an official in the Office of Management and Budget – saying that "Craig saw himself as the keeper of the Reagan flame. Only Craig knew what was right. No one else knew what was right".

Drug policy
Writing in 1995, Roberts expressed skepticism at the war on drugs, saying that it "perfectly illustrates the maxim 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions'."[32] In The Tyranny of Good Intentions (2000), Roberts and co-author Lawrence Stratton argued that the opposition of some American conservatives to drug-policy reform was an example of "the right's myopia".[33]

Foreign policy
He is a strong opponent of neoconservatism, saying, "the neocons are the worst thing that ever happened to the United States. (They’re) really the scum of the earth… They should all be picked up and shipped out of the country. They all belong in Israel. That’s where they should be. Pick ’em up, ship ’em to Israel, revoke their passports."[19]

Roberts has stated his opposition to United States involvement in the post-2001 War in Afghanistan and to the 2003 invasion of Iraq.[34] According to Roberts, "the Bush regime’s response to 9/11 and the Obama regime’s validation of this response have destroyed accountable, democratic government in the United States".[18] He believes the US is a puppet government of Israel.[19]

He supports Russian president Vladimir Putin, blames Euromaidan and the Syria civil war on a neocon plot, and argues that human rights NGOs working in Russia are part of a “US fifth column” working to undermine its government.[19]

Roberts has described himself as a "9/11 skeptic" and spoken at 9/11 Truth movement events.[34][40][41][19] Regarding the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Roberts has written that "all evidence pointed to a plot by the Joint Chiefs, CIA, and Secret Service whose right-wing leaders had concluded that President Kennedy was too 'soft on communism'".[42] He has also stated that the Charlie Hebdo shooting has many of the characteristics of a false flag operation" motivated in part “to stifle the growing European sympathy for the Palestinians and to realign Europe with Israel”.[40][43] The Washington Post noted that in 2014 Roberts speculated on his blog that Ebola originated as a US bioweapon and this was picked up by North Korea's state media.[44]

Views on World War II and the Holocaust
In 2019, Roberts wrote in support of the views of Holocaust denier David Irving, asserting that "Irving, without any doubt the best historian of the European part of World War II, learned at his great expense that challenging myths does not go unpunished... I will avoid the story of how this came to be, but, yes, you guessed it, it was the Zionists".[45] Roberts added that "No German plans, or orders from Hitler, or from Himmler or anyone else have ever been found for an organized holocaust by gas and cremation of Jews... The "death camps" were in fact work camps. Auschwitz, for example, today a Holocaust museum, was the site of Germany's essential artificial rubber factory. Germany was desperate for a work force."[45]

Honors and recognition
In 1981, Roberts was decorated with the United States Treasury Meritorious Service Award for "outstanding contributions to the formulation of United States economic policy".[13]

In 1987, he was invested into the French Legion of Honour at the rank of chevalier (knight) for his services to economics.[10][46][47]

In 2015, Roberts received the International Journalism Award for Political Analysis from Club de Periodistas de Mexico.[48]

In 2017, Roberts received the Lifetime Achievement Award from Marquis Who's Who.[49]
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:32 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:29 am
Closer to the Truth
I think PCR is wrong here. The Russians will almost certainly have to launch a winter offensive. They won't get a victory just by shutting off the power and water in the country and digging into the new Russian provinces.

Once the hard freeze is in their armor and mech units will move much easier off road. They conducted major winter offenses in '41, '42, '43, and '44 so this is their MO. I think the reservists are now reaching the front lines so they might start achieving numerical superiority on the ground also. I could be wrong but I think they've been outnumbered by the Ukrainians since the start although the Ukis are filling their ranks with foreign mercenaries now I'm hearing.

I think they'll have to surround Kiev and get the general staff to surrender the country, with Zelinsky arrested or having fled already. Time will tell.

Will Poland annex the Western part of Ukraine in the aftermath? Scott Ritter the former UN weapons inspector was saying earlier this week that's what he expects. He said he interviewed some Chechen commanders at the front and they told him all the chatter on the radio is Polish troops now in Uki uniforms. Ritter's opinion was that Poland is moving substantial numbers of troops into Ukraine and when Kiev surrenders the Poles are going to take the western part of the country back.

Interestingly the Russian intelligence services said in the last 24 hours that they have evidence or whatever that this is the plan by Poland also. Of course both Warsaw and Kiev said this is a lie. It's impossible to know who's lying when we're talking about governments at war and intelligence services. Some or all of them are lying.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:37 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:43 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:29 am
Closer to the Truth
Quite a set of opinions!

His named looked familiar so I wanted to read more about him. Here are some nuggets regarding this highly intelligent, educated, experienced person:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Craig_Roberts
Yeah, he seems like a tool. I don’t know if I can get my news from someone who refers to “the whore Western media.” Not because I’m a prude who discounts anyone who uses that language. It’s just hard to take him seriously, for many reaons. Pro-Putin, Holocaust-denying tool.

The Russians may win the war. But not because he said so. They just have a bigger army and more experience.
Let 2023 be the year of LASAGNE
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:47 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:37 pm
The Russians may win the war. But not because he said so. They just have a bigger army and more experience.
If Kiev surrenders and the Russians achieve all their strategic goals, do you think that will diminish the credibility of people saying Ukraine can/will win?

What will have been the point of all the death and destruction? Will it have been so that Kiev regime could continue to attack the Donbass region?

What will have been the point of all the economic loss and hardship in Europe, and to a lesser extent, here? Is killing some Russian soldiers worth that?

I don't think I've ever read anything from PCR before, but his comments below almost perfectly match my take on the situation although Washington is not a great description of the group calling the shots but for simplicity's sake its OK:

"From Washington’s standpoint, the more Ukraine is destroyed the better. If Putin finally abandons his half-way measures and gets down to real war, the war will soon be over. If Washington can prevent Zelensky from surrendering until Ukraine is destroyed, Washington gets the benefit of the economic and financial drain on Russia that rebuilding will impose. From Washington’s standpoint, the more problems for Russia the better regardless of the cost to Ukrainians.

What we are witnessing is the enormous inhumanity of Washington and the NATO capitals. It is unjust that it is Ukraine that is paying the cost of Western inhumanity and not Washington and the European capitals".
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Xan » Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:33 pm

I have to admit to being somewhat baffled at the idea that the proper response to an invasion is to surrender immediately in order to minimize the casualties.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:06 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:37 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:43 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:29 am

Closer to the Truth


Quite a set of opinions!

His named looked familiar so I wanted to read more about him. Here are some nuggets regarding this highly intelligent, educated, experienced person:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Craig_Roberts


Yeah, he seems like a tool. I don’t know if I can get my news from someone who refers to “the whore Western media.” Not because I’m a prude who discounts anyone who uses that language. It’s just hard to take him seriously, for many reaons. Pro-Putin, Holocaust-denying tool.

The Russians may win the war. But not because he said so. They just have a bigger army and more experience.


For me he was a wild card. Obviously, a highly accomplished person. But there were some things I 100% agreed with him while others I 100% disagreed. So when he says what he says now .... do I agree or disagree?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:07 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:33 pm

I have to admit to being somewhat baffled at the idea that the proper response to an invasion is to surrender immediately in order to minimize the casualties.


For both Poland and France in World War II it was not immediately but not far off?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:11 pm

SilentMajority wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:47 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:37 pm

The Russians may win the war. But not because he said so. They just have a bigger army and more experience.


If Kiev surrenders and the Russians achieve all their strategic goals, do you think that will diminish the credibility of people saying Ukraine can/will win?

What will have been the point of all the death and destruction? Will it have been so that Kiev regime could continue to attack the Donbass region?

What will have been the point of all the economic loss and hardship in Europe, and to a lesser extent, here? Is killing some Russian soldiers worth that?

I don't think I've ever read anything from PCR before, but his comments below almost perfectly match my take on the situation although Washington is not a great description of the group calling the shots but for simplicity's sake its OK:

"From Washington’s standpoint, the more Ukraine is destroyed the better. If Putin finally abandons his half-way measures and gets down to real war, the war will soon be over. If Washington can prevent Zelensky from surrendering until Ukraine is destroyed, Washington gets the benefit of the economic and financial drain on Russia that rebuilding will impose. From Washington’s standpoint, the more problems for Russia the better regardless of the cost to Ukrainians.

What we are witnessing is the enormous inhumanity of Washington and the NATO capitals. It is unjust that it is Ukraine that is paying the cost of Western inhumanity and not Washington and the European capitals".



There is a basic assumption behind all his thinking. That the current Russia miliary is the Russia military of World War II continuing through the Cold War.

I'd recently heard that about 10 years ago Russia severely downgraded its military so that it was appropriated sized to fight a border skirmish battle but not to fight a real war.

That fits in with Putin thinking this was going to be a quick and easy invasion. And, it explains why it has not turned out to be so.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:59 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:33 pm
I have to admit to being somewhat baffled at the idea that the proper response to an invasion is to surrender immediately in order to minimize the casualties.
Lol.

The proper response is to avoid the invasion diplomatically if you can't resist it militarily to minimize civilian death and suffering.

But yes.... immediate surrender would have been a lot better for the people also.

If your mental clock with regards to this conflict started on Feb 24, 2022, it will all seem very confusing, or very simple, but no conclusions will be accurate. The origin of the conflict goes back a lot longer.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:28 pm

I wonder if these guys support fighting to the last Ukrainian?

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2022/1 ... r-ukraine/

Before anyone here thinks this helps the US military or economy let me help you out. At 5PM today I was informed that a contract for just $9M we were about to sign with the USAF was being pulled because "funding reprioritization". We were going to in the next 12 months set up a VR training at an AFB for maintenance personnel and a state of the art asset tracking system for maintenance. This would have paid for itself quickly in lower training and maintenance costs and improved our bases and people.

Guess where the funding went.

We're throwing our treasure away to make sure "Russia bleeds". Gross.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:41 pm

SilentMajority wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:28 pm

I wonder if these guys support fighting to the last Ukrainian?

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2022/1 ... r-ukraine/

Before anyone here thinks this helps the US military or economy let me help you out. At 5PM today I was informed that a contract for just $9M we were about to sign with the USAF was being pulled because "funding reprioritization". We were going to in the next 12 months set up a VR training at an AFB for maintenance personnel and a state of the art asset tracking system for maintenance. This would have paid for itself quickly in lower training and maintenance costs and improved our bases and people.

Guess where the funding went.

We're throwing our treasure away to make sure "Russia bleeds". Gross.


Wasn't that somewhat the same tactic that conservatives / Republicans universally praised Reagan for doing? Dramatically increasing our country's deficit by increased military spending which caused Russia to attempt to match which then led them to bankruptcy as a country? That seems to be what I read innumerable times.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:04 pm

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:44 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:41 pm
SilentMajority wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:28 pm
I wonder if these guys support fighting to the last Ukrainian?

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2022/1 ... r-ukraine/

Before anyone here thinks this helps the US military or economy let me help you out. At 5PM today I was informed that a contract for just $9M we were about to sign with the USAF was being pulled because "funding reprioritization". We were going to in the next 12 months set up a VR training at an AFB for maintenance personnel and a state of the art asset tracking system for maintenance. This would have paid for itself quickly in lower training and maintenance costs and improved our bases and people.

Guess where the funding went.

We're throwing our treasure away to make sure "Russia bleeds". Gross.
Wasn't that somewhat the same tactic that conservatives / Republicans universally praised Reagan for doing? Dramatically increasing our country's deficit by increased military spending which caused Russia to attempt to match which then led them to bankruptcy as a country? That seems to be what I read innumerable times.
Here's at least one of the differences. Reagan presided over a cold war where people weren't dying. We're currently in a hot proxy war where a lot of people in Ukraine are dying on our behalf. The US/NATO is using those dying people for our purposes. It's sick. It should be a war crime. I doubt most of those people who are dying would choose to do this if given a real choice. There is a small leadership group in Ukraine making choices for the whole country, under heavy influence from US/NATO, not to mention corrupt kickbacks out of all the aid money being sent by us.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:02 am

SilentMajority wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:47 pm
dualstow wrote:
Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:37 pm
The Russians may win the war. But not because he said so. They just have a bigger army and more experience.
If Kiev surrenders and the Russians achieve all their strategic goals, do you think that will diminish the credibility of people saying Ukraine can/will win?

No. We may as well be talking about financial prognosicators.
Anything can happen. There are too many variables. And even after the war is over, some people are going to draw their own conclusions, just as some fringe groups continue to do about 9/11. (I’m not lumping you in with them. Just an example).
What will have been the point of all the death and destruction?
Ask Putin.

"From Washington’s standpoint, the more Ukraine is destroyed the better. …
What we are witnessing is the enormous inhumanity of Washington and the NATO capitals.
I reject the idea that the Ukrainians are willing to fight because Washington told them to. This is not the 1950s or 60s with the CIA organizing some coup. I’m one of those suckers who believes that the Ukrainians want to fight back, and that Putin did not expect them to.

Without getting involved in directly fighting the Russians, the U.S. has agreed, in a limited capacity, to supply weapons and other tools of war, as well as training. Are they doing it out of altruism? No, there are geopolitical motives. We are less evil enough than the Russians that I support it. But no one really knows the outcome.
Let 2023 be the year of LASAGNE
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