Putin Invades Ukraine II

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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:24 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:26 pm
SilentMajority wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:44 pm
I'm interested in hearing how the invasions of Iraq and Libya, which wrecked both of them, are virtuous
...
So am I. I'm also interested in whom the comment is directed. Clearly not me, since I wrote
I don’t feel guilty about Saddam or Ghaddafi either. I mean, I feel bad that we wrecked Iraq, even though “there was peace” before we invaded. And, if I could turn back time, I would be against the US invasion of Iraq
It was directed towards you because honestly my blood boils over with the nonchalance in your comments, and half hearted acknowledgement with what was done to Iraq, let alone Libya.

Millions dead or maimed, displaced, irradiated, reintroduction of the slave trade in Libya, endless other horrible things done to real human beings. The same thing is happening here in Ukraine because of the US government. The US overthrew the government there. The US pushed the possiblity of NATO entrance, ehhhhh we've gone through it all already.

Hopefully in 10-20 years we can all say we feel bad that we wrecked Ukraine by fighting a proxy war there and not that half the planet died in nuclear war.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:32 pm

The idiot sheeple think anything the US does is okay, because the US goal is to put down big, bad Putin, and so any amount of collateral damage is justified. One thing they don't understand is that if Putin goes down, someone even worse might come to power, because according to some less biased reporters there are a not insignificant number of working class type people in Russia who criticize Putin not for attacking Ukraine but because they perceive Putin to be too soft in how he deals with provocations by the West. Apparently Putin is a lawyer by training and fairly legalistic, so he tries to do things according to legal norms, but a fair number of Russians think he should throw the book out and be more free wheeling.

That's what I read somewhere. It could be all wrong, but so could all the simplistic "Russia is bad, Putin is the next Hitler" pablum that fills US media.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:01 pm

An interesting article by a former CIA analyst and now anti-war activist:

Americans Dumbed Down on Russia
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:49 am

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 10:32 pm

The idiot sheeple think anything the US does is okay, because the US goal is to put down big, bad Putin, and so any amount of collateral damage is justified. One thing they don't understand is that if Putin goes down, someone even worse might come to power, because according to some less biased reporters there are a not insignificant number of working class type people in Russia who criticize Putin not for attacking Ukraine but because they perceive Putin to be too soft in how he deals with provocations by the West. Apparently Putin is a lawyer by training and fairly legalistic, so he tries to do things according to legal norms, but a fair number of Russians think he should throw the book out and be more free wheeling.

That's what I read somewhere. It could be all wrong, but so could all the simplistic "Russia is bad, Putin is the next Hitler" pablum that fills US media.


Does not seem like he ever became a lawyer but I was surprised to read this:

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Vladimir-Putin

"Putin studied law at Leningrad State University, where his tutor was Anatoly Sobchak, later one of the leading reform politicians of the perestroika period. "
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:52 am

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:01 pm

An interesting article by a former CIA analyst and now anti-war activist:

Americans Dumbed Down on Russia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_McGovern

Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election
McGovern holds a position that the theft of the DNC emails was an inside job, and not the work of Russian agents (contrary to the findings published by the US intelligence community).[36] In McGovern's view, the metadata in the files released by Guccifer 2.0 (whom the US intelligence community identifies as a Russian military intelligence operation) originated from a computer in the Eastern United States but was manipulated to give the appearance that the documents came from Russia. With William Binney, McGovern released a VIPS report in support of his theory, which was taken up by The Nation and other outlets[37] and promoted by Russian state media.[38] Many of the VIPS members, however, did not sign the report. It was later revealed that the inside job theory itself originated from a disinformation campaign run by a UK-based pro-Kremlin hacker named Tim Leonard.[39]

Russia related activities
McGovern was skeptical of the allegation that Russia was involved in the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in 2014 over eastern Ukraine.[40]

McGovern was listed in a 2022 report by the Ukrainian government as a "Speaker who promotes narratives consonant with Russian propaganda".[41]
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:31 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:52 am
McGovern was listed in a 2022 report by the Ukrainian government as a "Speaker who promotes narratives consonant with Russian propaganda".[41]
I love it.

Anyone who uses Russian salad dressing "promotes narratives consonant with Russian propaganda" according to the Zelinsky regime.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:07 am

my ✅’s and ❌’s inserted below:
SilentMajority wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:13 pm
Let me clarify what I attempted poorly to say:

You do not support direct US military engagement with Russia because it risks WW3/end of the world.

You do support the continued supply of military equipment, training, intelligence, American mercenaries (maybe, because this is happening), logistics and domestic aid, money, etc. for the purpose of enabling the Ukis to fight the Russkis.
✅

I am sure you support the funding of anti Putin agents inside Russia to overthrow Putin
✅ as long as they don’t get caught/ outed

as well as cutting off their trade with other countries, the use of international banking,
✅

the confiscation of Russian owned property around the world.

❌ Mixed feelings about this one. When I read about oligarchs with ties to Putin having their boats seized, I wasn’t against it. But, there are some who oppose him. How do we know whom to believe? Glad it’s not my job. And, I’m certainly against discrimination against Russians who happen to live overseas, which *is* happening.

Stop me if I'm wrong on any of those. By any definition that has be "indirect warfare".

If you support it, I assume that means you think this doesn't risk the end of the world.

The world seems to always be in turmoil and everything is a risk. I know that’s a diplomatic answer, but I will say I don’t believe in the U.S. being 100% passive. It worked for Gandhi; it’s not the role of the United States. I don’t believe in appeasement except maybe for North Korea, where there doesn’t seem to be much of a choice for now.


My point is it does, because until one side backs down it will keep escalating, and there's always the threat of an incident or false flag that sparks the big fireworks. Remember when Ukrainian missiles hit Poland and Zelinsky said they were Russian and NATO needed to go to war???? Has he backed off that claim yet?
If you don't think the US Navy was involved in bombing Russian pipelines in the Baltic or that US military "assisting" the Ukrainians in hitting target deep in Russia is direct conflict, ok. I disagree and think and everyone supporting continuation of the war is underestimating the possibility of horrific outcomes for everyone, not just Russia and Ukraine.
I remember. / Don’t know if Zelensky has backed off.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:13 am

Rather than continue arguing whether or not the invasion was justified, or whether or not the US government should be supporting Kiev, maybe we can move onto current developments.

I think everyone who's interested can comb through the previous opinions and/or do their own research on the matter and form their own conclusions.

A short list of significant events so far this week we've seen:

1. Strikes up to 300 miles inside of Russia by drones (doubtless supplied by NATO)
2. Ban of Russian oil imports into Australia/Britain/Canada/Japan/USA/EU at prices above $60 (so effectively a ban)
3. Macron and Viktor Orban (Hungary) calling for re-evaluation of the policy towards Russia, as it's disproportionally hurting Europe
4. Fierce fighting raging at Kherson
5. Zelensky being named "person of the year" by the Financial Times
6. Zelensky signing a decree to go after people in the Russian and Ukrainian Orthodox church suspected of having Russian sympathies. This included raids by police in hundreds of churches to root out Russian positive literature and conduct polygraph interrogations of dozens of people (I assume priests and Church hierarchy)

I'm sure there's a hundred others.

*EDIT* - Zelensky has also just been named Time Magazine "Person of the Year". It looks like they've used new photos instead of re-using the Vouge photo shots.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:17 am

SilentMajority wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:24 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Dec 06, 2022 6:26 pm
SilentMajority wrote:
Mon Dec 05, 2022 7:44 pm
I'm interested in hearing how the invasions of Iraq and Libya, which wrecked both of them, are virtuous
...
So am I. I'm also interested in whom the comment is directed. Clearly not me, since I wrote
I don’t feel guilty about Saddam or Ghaddafi either. I mean, I feel bad that we wrecked Iraq, even though “there was peace” before we invaded. And, if I could turn back time, I would be against the US invasion of Iraq
It was directed towards you because honestly my blood boils over with the nonchalance in your comments, and half hearted acknowledgement with what was done to Iraq, let alone Libya.

Not my intent to make your blood boil.
• If there were a long profile page where I could say, “hey, this is my stance on this conflict and that nation” that I could link to, I’d make use of it. But, I have placed caveats and and clarificaitons in so many posts until I’m blue in the face, and it doesn’t seem to matter. You’re very polite, and I appreciate that, but you misquote me almost every time, and that gives me even less incentive to wrap my opinions in caveats.
• So please don’t mistake brevity for non-chalance or halfheartedness. One of my best friends of all time was born in Iraq and came here as a teenager because of the U.S invasion. We’ve had long talks about it. I take it very seriously.
• Again, I’m not going to couch every comment with a “but war is terrible” speech for every new member who joins the thread. It’s tediious, and honestly it’s not my responsibility. In the end, who cares what my opinion is? No one knows how the war is going to play out.
Millions dead or maimed, displaced, irradiated, reintroduction of the slave trade in Libya, endless other horrible things done to real human beings. The same thing is happening here in Ukraine because of the US government. The US overthrew the government there. The US pushed the possiblity of NATO entrance, ehhhhh we've gone through it all already.
Indeed we have.

Hopefully in 10-20 years we can all say we feel bad that we wrecked Ukraine by fighting a proxy war there and not that half the planet died in nuclear war.
✅
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:51 am

We're cool Dualstow. I think we've voiced our disagreements on the "morality" aspect here of Russian and US action and yeah, it's hard to balance brevity and accuracy in an internet chat forum.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Xan » Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:57 am

If Putin has been so wronged and is such a hot-shot lawyer with respect for proper processes, why didn't he go and make his case to the UN? He personally could have laid out a case of the US interfering in the coup, of Russian-majority regions wanting to redraw the borders, etc. He's got a permanent vote on the security council for goodness sake.

Not doing that makes it look like he has no legitimate case to invade, that he believes Ukraine is illegitimate from the start, and that he's just trying to bring the site of the baptism of Rus back into Russian control. All of which (apart from no legitimate case) he's directly said, come to think of it.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:52 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:57 am
why didn't he go and make his case to the UN? He personally could have laid out a case of the US interfering in the coup, of Russian-majority regions wanting to redraw the borders, etc.
I'm not sure how many time the Russians went to the UN but obviously it's not a path to resolution. The UN immediately recognized the coup government and condemned the Crimea vote to join Russia, declaring that Crimea belonged to Ukraine/Kiev (in spite of less than 4% of the population even speaking Ukrainian as a first language).

Something tells me the UN isn't a useful arbiter of justice when justice is in opposition to US interests.

The Reuters article is informative and surprisingly balanced on the subject. Below the link are some excerpts. Interested parties should read it. The US was hand-picking the new government and discussed getting the UN to sign off before the Russian could "torpedo it".

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... 1G20140207

The leaked conversation appeared certain to embarrass the United States and seemed designed to bolster charges - from Russia, among others - that the Ukrainian opposition is being manipulated by Washington, which President Barack Obama’s administration strenuously disputes.

U.S. accusations that Russia helped publicize the taped conversation also threatened Washington’s already tense relationship with Moscow.

The audio clip, which was posted on Tuesday but gained wide circulation on Thursday, appears to show the official, Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, weighing in on the make-up of the next Ukrainian government.

Nuland is heard telling U.S. Ambassador Geoffrey Pyatt that she doesn’t think Vitaly Klitschko, the boxer-turned-politician who is a main opposition leader, should be in a new government.

“So I don’t think Klitsch (Klitschko) should go into the government,” she said in the recording, which appeared to describe events that occurred in late January. “I don’t think it’s necessary. I don’t think it’s a good idea.”

Separately on Thursday, a senior Kremlin aide accused the United States of arming Ukrainian “rebels” and warned Russia could intervene to maintain the security of its neighbor.

U.S. officials, while declining to confirm the recording’s contents, did not dispute its authenticity.

“I did not say it was not authentic,” State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki said at a news briefing.


.
.
.
.
.
In the first audio, Nuland and Pyatt are heard discussing strategies to work with the three main opposition figures: Klitschko, Arseny Yatseniuk, former Ukrainian economy minister, and Oleh Tyahnybok, the far-right nationalist opposition leader.

Nuland referred to getting the United Nations involved in a political solution in Kiev.

“So that would be great, I think, to help glue this thing and have the U.N. help glue it and you know ... fuck the EU,” she said in the recording, which was accompanied by still pictures of people mentioned in the call.

Pyatt responded: “Exactly. And I think we’ve got to do something to make it stick together because you can be pretty sure that if it does start to gain altitude, the Russians will be working behind the scenes to try to torpedo it.”
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:58 am

SilentMajority wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 8:51 am
We're cool Dualstow. I think we've voiced our disagreements on the "morality" aspect here of Russian and US action and yeah, it's hard to balance brevity and accuracy in an internet chat forum.
Glad to hear it!

@Stuper, you mentioned a few pages ago that if you were Russian, you might support Putin. I didn’t acknowledge that many Russians do. I don’t know that it makes him a good leader, though, and in this specific post I’m setting aside his international standing and questioning whether he’s good for the Russian people.

From what I’ve read, his popularity tends to rise in fall with the price of oil, to some extent.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:28 pm

When reading a media piece and trying to decide if you can trust it, look for internal logical consistency and also use your own judgment on whether it makes sense. Here's an example: if you're reading a piece from Western media, and they are trying to portray that the average Russian working class person has the same worldview as say an upper middle class person living in New York City who was educated at a place like Stanford or Penn, you can be pretty sure that what you are reading is not reliable and is basically propaganda.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:07 pm

I've never seen anyone make such an assertion, mainstream news or otherwise.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:26 pm

Of course it's not an assertion. Nobody would fall for that. I said a portrayal. You have to read between the lines a bit.

One of my basic points is that your typical Russian working class person very likely has a different viewpoint on the world than almost anyone who reads this forum. Trying to empathize a bit and see things from their perspective might be harder for us than we realize.

Also, of course, I should have said when reading media pieces to look for obvious conflicts of interest and sources of bias. For example, if the government of Ukraine says that someone promotes Russian propaganda, you might want to take that with a grain of salt.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:10 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 2:26 pm

Of course it's not an assertion. Nobody would fall for that. I said a portrayal. You have to read between the lines a bit.

One of my basic points is that your typical Russian working class person very likely has a different viewpoint on the world than almost anyone who reads this forum. Trying to empathize a bit and see things from their perspective might be harder for us than we realize.

Also, of course, I should have said when reading media pieces to look for obvious conflicts of interest and sources of bias. For example, if the government of Ukraine says that someone promotes Russian propaganda, you might want to take that with a grain of salt.


Of course. But it could still be true.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:22 pm

Oh come on. Do I have to do everything?

Seriously. Really?

Vinny should have posted this by now.

PersonOfTheYear.jpg
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:32 pm

Had no idea of that until you put it here.

However, I WAS aware of this!

Capture.JPG
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Then that was followed by what each of my three sports teams did yesterday:

1) Yankees signing Judge

2) Providence winning by 40

3) Celtics beating the best team in the other conference by 27.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 07, 2022 11:37 pm

I assume many here know that Hitler was Time's 1938 Man of the Year?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Thu Dec 08, 2022 7:15 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:22 pm
Oh come on. Do I have to do everything?

Seriously. Really?

Vinny should have posted this by now.


{img Time PersonOfTheYear }
😂 Now that’s signaling.
It was a little strange to see that within a few hours of Tucker Carlson — whom I don’t watch, but I was flipping channels — accuse Zelensky of punishing Christians.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by dualstow » Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:57 am

^ Actually, even though it’s the dreaded Western media, i think this is right up your alley, Stuper ^
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker- ... -zelenskyy
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by SilentMajority » Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:18 am

dualstow wrote:
Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:57 am
^ Actually, even though it’s the dreaded Western media, i think this is right up your alley, Stuper ^
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker- ... -zelenskyy
Hopefully Tucker, who is probably single most influential media personality in America, can help shrink further the minority of people still supporting the war.

The US government has a history of dumping dictators once they're used up. When they dump this guy Volodymry he's gonna fall hard. I doubt he'll end up in a Russian cage, Tel Aviv or Warsaw are more likely destinations but we'll see.

Five days ago Lukashenko said Belarus and Russia were preparing to fight as a single force, a single Army until Kiev is ready for full-fledged negotiations (paraphrased).

I've heard that hundreds of thousands more troops are massed at the border, we'll see. I expect renewed attack by armored and mech units after the hard freezes set in. Hopefully for the people a last-second diplomatic solution occurs before a further large-scale attack.
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by stuper1 » Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:05 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Dec 08, 2022 8:57 am
^ Actually, even though it’s the dreaded Western media, i think this is right up your alley, Stuper ^
https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tucker- ... -zelenskyy
Ok, let's take this almost as a geometric proof:

1. Time magazine portrays Zelensky as a saint.

2. Tucker portrays him as the opposite. By the way, I've never watched Tucker. I suspect I agree with much of what he says, and disagree with a fair amount also.

3. Obviously #1 and #2 can't both be true. One of them is true, and the other isn't.

4. Which one of #1 or #2 do you believe to be true based on all information you have heard. For me, I think #2 is much more likely to be true.

5. How much of the mass media agree with #1? From what I can tell, a strong majority of the mass media agree with #1.

6. Compare your answers to #4 and #5. What does this tell you about the reliability of mass media?
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Re: Putin Invades Ukraine II

Post by Xan » Thu Dec 08, 2022 2:11 pm

Luther coined the term "simul justus et peccator", that is, saint and sinner at the same time. So more options might be open than you're seeing.

The bishop of Constantinople granted autocephaly to the Orthodox Church of Ukraine. The one Zelensky is exploring suppressing is the Ukranian Orthodox Church, which is a satellite branch of the Russian Orthodox Church.

I believe this issue was behind the current rift between the Moscow Patriarchate and the Constantinople Patriarchate. For what it's worth I believe our resident Eastern Orthodox, Ad Orientem, supported the Moscow church and said the Orthodox Church of Ukraine was schismatic. (I believe that Orthodoxy in the US is /generally/ descended from the Russian branch.)

Anyway, the Tucker article makes it sound like Zelensky is banning Christianity, or Orthodoxy, and that's certainly not true.
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