My Dream City: No Public Schools

[Hal]

Hmmm....

If you wish to have Public Schools, how about a surcharge on your property tax based on the number of school aged children you have?

As an aside, I have met "poor" families with fantastic children - think "Little house on the Prairie" type children.
Think the main issue is the standard of the parents, both rich and poor. Not sure how you would encourage "responsible" parents into your ideal city though.

Certainly I have no love for State-run schools. Still remember one of the few decent teachers telling my father "It is inappropriate to send your children to this school if you wish them to have an education"

[Kriegsspiel]

I would venture that high property values and taxes are a big city thing. There are many places outside of the cities where property values and taxes are reasonable. I'm not convinced that school spending is causing, or even correlated, with school quality.

[Xan]

The idea of parents pulling the entire freight for their kids' education is certainly an interesting theory, and worth discussing.

I think a more realistic way to improve things is to completely disband the public school system, and instead take the amount of money that the state had previously spent to educate each student, and give each student a voucher in that amount.

Schools will pop up of all different makes and descriptions. Even the poor, who can't afford to live in a nice suburb, will suddenly be able to exert market pressure on their schools. Bad schools will fold, good schools will thrive.

This is far from the libertarian utopia of no school taxes, but it does mean it should get buy-in from both the left and the right. Really I don't see any argument how it isn't better than the current system. The only reason I can see to oppose it is if you're in the pocket of teachers' unions.

doodle, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts.

[doodle]

I think educating future generations is probably one of the best investments a country can make to ensure its continued prosperity. To cut public funding of education would put us at a severe disadvantage globally....and we are already way behind.

How those dollars get spent is another matter. Overall, I'm not a huge fan of public education. I don't necessarily think its a bad idea to have competing schools as long as there is some oversight as to standards and core curriculum. I think it would be a bad idea to let parents decide what their children will or won't learn. Imagine getting all of your news and information from your carefully selected Facebook feed and then extrapolate. Children should be exposed to a wide variety of viewpoints and philosophies...that is probably one of the strong points for public education where everyone is mixed together.

I don't know, it's an incredibly complicated topic. I'm sure Tom is convinced that his solution would work fantastically. I'm not as optimistic. I grew up for many years in Europe and therefore feel more of a balanced role between the rights of the individual and ones obligations to society. There are plenty of cultures that function quite effectively with that balance. I don't know of any that have ever operated according to Tom's principles.

[doodle]

Tom, I mentioned to you before....why don't you start a libertarian city of your own? You seem very passionate and I'm sure with a handful of other libertarian people you could purchase a large enough tract of land to construct a mini society according to your principles. If a bunch of drugged out hippies can set up a commune then I'd think it would be a breeze for you.

[vnatale]

I'll throw in these tangential questions.

Many non-Democratic countries such as Russia and China surpass U.S. States students in standardized tests such as math....

1) Their schools are mostly public? State funded? Or, what percentage of private schools do they have?

2) How do such un-democratic societies motivate their students to be such better students compared to those of the United States?


Vinny

[Tortoise]

2) How do such un-democratic societies [Russia and China] motivate their students to be such better students compared to those of the United States?

Discipline.

When I was in college, many (perhaps even most) of the highest-achieving students in my engineering classes were Asian. Some of them made it quite clear that they weren't really interested in engineering. They were more interested in less lucrative subjects, but their families expected them to be engineers, so that's what they were majoring in. And their families expected them to be the best, so they studied their asses off to earn good grades.

Discipline in American culture seems to be sorely lacking.

[glennds]

2) How do such un-democratic societies [Russia and China] motivate their students to be such better students compared to those of the United States?

Discipline.

When I was in college, many (perhaps even most) of the highest-achieving students in my engineering classes were Asian. Some of them made it quite clear that they weren't really interested in engineering. They were more interested in less lucrative subjects, but their families expected them to be engineers, so that's what they were majoring in. And their families expected them to be the best, so they studied their asses off to earn good grades.

Discipline in American culture seems to be sorely lacking.

You reminded me of a news story that came out of Texas in the early 90's, Corpus Christi I think. The top ten students in a handful of high schools in the district were all or mostly Vietnamese. It was overwhelming how much they dominated the test scores and GPA averages. Well someone went there to do a deeper dive and came away with an interesting conclusion. Basically all these kids were the children of Vietnamese war refugees from South Vietnam (boat people they were called). The attitude among these families was that the access to education they found in the US was a brass ring of opportunity whereas the other kids just took it for granted. In the end, the conclusion was that the Vietnamese weren't any smarter than the other kids, it was just that they had a different attitude which allowed them to excel.

Now that I think about it, similar conclusions were made about the reasons for the Vietnamese defeat of the US in the war despite being outmatched in resources.

[Xan]

How those dollars get spent is another matter. Overall, I'm not a huge fan of public education. I don't necessarily think its a bad idea to have competing schools as long as there is some oversight as to standards and core curriculum. I think it would be a bad idea to let parents decide what their children will or won't learn. Imagine getting all of your news and information from your carefully selected Facebook feed and then extrapolate. Children should be exposed to a wide variety of viewpoints and philosophies...that is probably one of the strong points for public education where everyone is mixed together.

Oof, getting away from that oversight would be a huge part of the point for me.

[vnatale]

I think educating future generations is probably one of the best investments a country can make to ensure its continued prosperity. To cut public funding of education would put us at a severe disadvantage globally....and we are already way behind.

How those dollars get spent is another matter. Overall, I'm not a huge fan of public education. I don't necessarily think its a bad idea to have competing schools as long as there is some oversight as to standards and core curriculum. I think it would be a bad idea to let parents decide what their children will or won't learn. Imagine getting all of your news and information from your carefully selected Facebook feed and then extrapolate. Children should be exposed to a wide variety of viewpoints and philosophies...that is probably one of the strong points for public education where everyone is mixed together.

I don't know, it's an incredibly complicated topic. I'm sure Tom is convinced that his solution would work fantastically. I'm not as optimistic. I grew up for many years in Europe and therefore feel more of a balanced role between the rights of the individual and ones obligations to society. There are plenty of cultures that function quite effectively with that balance. I don't know of any that have ever operated according to Tom's principles.

except that modern public education has abandoned teaching a wide variety of philosophy and viewpoints (along with critical thinking long ago)
i agree in mixed classes though, older kids and younger ones should be in the same classrooms, like the old one room school house. the advantage to older kids is they can master subjects by having to help teach, and younger kids get the benefits of having exposure to maturity

i am definitely in favor of school choice/vouchers..

I just read this in a book last week about math education in schools. The author argued that instead of having stratified classes, like I went through in junior and senior high school, it'd be better to have all level students together with the better students helping to teach the lesser students.

[doodle]

Tom, I mentioned to you before....why don't you start a libertarian city of your own? You seem very passionate and I'm sure with a handful of other libertarian people you could purchase a large enough tract of land to construct a mini society according to your principles. If a bunch of drugged out hippies can set up a commune then I'd think it would be a breeze for you.

I would love to!

Let's recreate Atlas Shrugged for real. And see how everyone else does compared to us.

Of course, you aren't really creating an accurate microcosm of society. You'd have to admit drug addicts and violent criminals etc. Etc.

How those dollars get spent is another matter. Overall, I'm not a huge fan of public education. I don't necessarily think its a bad idea to have competing schools as long as there is some oversight as to standards and core curriculum. I think it would be a bad idea to let parents decide what their children will or won't learn. Imagine getting all of your news and information from your carefully selected Facebook feed and then extrapolate. Children should be exposed to a wide variety of viewpoints and philosophies...that is probably one of the strong points for public education where everyone is mixed together.

Oof, getting away from that oversight would be a huge part of the point for me.

How then are you going to evaluate your school and compare it's effectiveness to others? You think parents know what a third grader should be learning and can evaluate whether or not they are on track relative to peers?

[Xan]

How then are you going to evaluate your school and compare it's effectiveness to others? You think parents know what a third grader should be learning and can evaluate whether or not they are on track relative to peers?

There are countless other things that people aren't experts on that they have to make decisions about. There are reviews, evaluations, standardized tests, all sorts of options for how to do this.

Also your point still applies to the current public school system: how do parents know who to elect to the school board? How do the parents know how to hold superintendents and principals accountable? You have the same problem no matter how the school is organized.

[doodle]

Sure standardized tests is one method of going about it...that is a defacto way of establishing a curriculum however so I don't necessarily see the difference between doing thaylt on the front end or the back end. I do not think it's wise to put parents in charge of the pedagogy of their children. School is supposed to be a place where you are exposed to all different ideas and experiences...many of those uncomfortable and challenging to your core beliefs and those of your parents. Scientists have a pretty good grasp of child development and learning...why let parents dictate that process?

[Xan]

Sure standardized tests is one method of going about it...that is a defacto way of establishing a curriculum however so I don't necessarily see the difference between doing thaylt on the front end or the back end.

I didn't say that government should establish such a test, or base any rule or regulation on its outcome. It would be purely to help schools and parents evaluate schools.

I do not think it's wise to put parents in charge of the pedagogy of their children. School is supposed to be a place where you are exposed to all different ideas and experiences...many of those uncomfortable and challenging to your core beliefs and those of your parents.

I'm just not even sure what to do with this. Even with public schools, it's primarily a parent's responsibility to educate their children. Should parents be in charge of educating their children? Yes, a thousand times yes! This is honestly the scariest thing I've seen you write, maybe the scariest thing I've ever seen on this site.

Scientists have a pretty good grasp of child development and learning...why let parents dictate that process?

And already a new contender has taken first place. This is horrifying in every way. Do you have chlidren, doodle?

[doodle]

Sure standardized tests is one method of going about it...that is a defacto way of establishing a curriculum however so I don't necessarily see the difference between doing thaylt on the front end or the back end.

I didn't say that government should establish such a test, or base any rule or regulation on its outcome. It would be purely to help schools and parents evaluate schools.

...and so then the schools teach to the test. We're back to square one.

I do not think it's wise to put parents in charge of the pedagogy of their children. School is supposed to be a place where you are exposed to all different ideas and experiences...many of those uncomfortable and challenging to your core beliefs and those of your parents.

I'm just not even sure what to do with this. Even with public schools, it's primarily a parent's responsibility to educate their children. Should parents be in charge of educating their children? Yes, a thousand times yes! This is honestly the scariest thing I've seen you write, maybe the scariest thing I've ever seen on this site.

Scientists have a pretty good grasp of child development and learning...why let parents dictate that process?

And already a new contender has taken first place. This is horrifying in every way.
[/quote]

Ummm ....who do you think is consulted when districts and states develop curriculum for students? Who do you think writes the textbooks? Parents? What type of education would you expect your principals and teachers to have? You think these decisions should be made by parents? Should parents dictate the curriculum that little johnny gets when he goes off to medical school? Or studies structural engineering?

[Xan]

Ummm ....who do you think is consulted when districts and states develop curriculum for students? Who do you think writes the textbooks? Parents? What type of education would you expect your principals and teachers to have? You think these decisions should be made by parents? Should parents dictate the curriculum that little johnny gets when he goes off to medical school? Or studies structural engineering?

Ultimately, the consumer of the education does decide. Once Johnny is old enough to go to medical school, he decides which one. Until then, the parents decide.

[doodle]

Ummm ....who do you think is consulted when districts and states develop curriculum for students? Who do you think writes the textbooks? Parents? What type of education would you expect your principals and teachers to have? You think these decisions should be made by parents? Should parents dictate the curriculum that little johnny gets when he goes off to medical school? Or studies structural engineering?

Ultimately, the consumer of the education does decide. Once Johnny is old enough to go to medical school, he decides which one. Until then, the parents decide.

It's like you guys are trying to reinvent the wheel here.

You support standardized tests as a method for consumers / parents to evaluate schools...because how can you evaluate the effectiveness of your child's education unless you can compare him to other children at other schools? . So in other words you are creating a defacto curriculum through testing. I don't see how this is different from what currently takes place.

Secondly, Johnny can go to any medical school he wants so long as it is accredited and he can pass certain tests at the end. So again, those are determined by some governing authority... Or maybe you advocate for profit diploma mills to just churn out doctors and we can figure out on the operating table whether or not they know what they are doing? Xan, it's time to grow out of this libertarian fantasyland

[Xan]

Tom's the one in fantasyland, about getting people to actually stop supporting paying for kids' educations.

I think my proposal is perfectly realistic, and avoids another fantasyland of public schools working particularly well.

And then the idea of parents not being in charge of their kids' education is a really outlandish fantasyland which I hope would find zero support anywhere.

And then the idea of parents not being in charge of their kids' education is a really outlandish fantasyland which I hope would find zero support anywhere.

ditto..

[vnatale]

Tom's the one in fantasyland, about getting people to actually stop supporting paying for kids' educations.

I think my proposal is perfectly realistic, and avoids another fantasyland of public schools working particularly well.

And then the idea of parents not being in charge of their kids' education is a really outlandish fantasyland which I hope would find zero support anywhere.

ditto..

Many here are in my age group. How many of your parents were involved in your education? I'd say none for both me and my (nearly 7 year older) sister.

We went though a good, huge school system - 693 in my graduating class.

I do not remember them promoting any forms of ideology to us.

[Mountaineer]

What say we step back 125 years to talk about what standards might be appropriate. Can you all pass this test? Perhaps parents should have to pass the test, or an equally comprehensive version of it, so they can properly evaluate what their kids are being taught in these "modern" times, or perhaps before they can qualify for any type of government aid or tax exemption.

https://newrepublic.com/article/79470/1 ... -could-you

^^^Mountaineer^^^

[Xan]

Tom's the one in fantasyland, about getting people to actually stop supporting paying for kids' educations.

I think my proposal is perfectly realistic, and avoids another fantasyland of public schools working particularly well.

And then the idea of parents not being in charge of their kids' education is a really outlandish fantasyland which I hope would find zero support anywhere.

ditto..

Many here are in my age group. How many of your parents were involved in your education? I'd say none for both me and my (nearly 7 year older) sister.

We went though a good, huge school system - 693 in my graduating class.

I do not remember them promoting any forms of ideology to us.

Vinny

It's still ultimately the parents. They choose where to live. You could have lived somewhere else, or gone to a private/parochial school. To say that children are better off being taken away by the state to be educated over their parents' objections is the stuff of dystopian novels.

[Kriegsspiel]

Tom, I think you'd enjoy SSC's graduation address. I mean... all of you probably will.

[Mountaineer]

Tom's the one in fantasyland, about getting people to actually stop supporting paying for kids' educations.

I think my proposal is perfectly realistic, and avoids another fantasyland of public schools working particularly well.

And then the idea of parents not being in charge of their kids' education is a really outlandish fantasyland which I hope would find zero support anywhere.

ditto..

Many here are in my age group.

How many of your parents were involved in your education?

I'd say none for both me and my (nearly 7 year older) sister.

We went though a good, huge school system - 693 in my graduating class.

I do not remember them promoting any forms of ideology to us.

Vinny

Both parents, a couple grandparents, and a couple aunts and uncles. I probably learned more from them than I realize even now. As for my teachers, there are only a couple of standouts from my high school days (math/science and history teachers) and one from my college days (practical chemical engineering professor); the rest were good but not outstanding. Most of my real learning took place through my personal efforts; I had a very strong desire to learn, and learn, and learn, and keep learning instilled in me from my early childhood by the people I mentioned. I went to a small high school in a very small town; 52 in my graduating class.

[doodle]

Tom's the one in fantasyland, about getting people to actually stop supporting paying for kids' educations.

Yes, I think he is so myopically fixated on himself that he forgets how the quality of his life is closely intertwined with the society around him. I think he'd benefit from a bit of study into the concept of dependent origination to temper his fantasyland ideas.

I think my proposal is perfectly realistic, and avoids another fantasyland of public schools working particularly well.

And then the idea of parents not being in charge of their kids' education is a really outlandish fantasyland which I hope would find zero support anywhere.

I think if you delve into charter schools you will find that on the whole they don't perform much better than public schools and in some cases are far worse...the same goes for private school. In the cases they perform better those gains can largely be attributed to students being drawn from specific socioeconomic classes or having more engaged parents.

As far as parents, I'm not saying that they shouldn't play a role in their child's education. Parents are of key importance to a child's learning. Parents are of key importance to their child's health as well but they don't chart the course of action to treat their child's cancer...they defer to medical experts. Of course they have room for input, but why have any experts at all if we are just going to allow lay people to decide how many milligrams of medicine should be dosed out or what treatment regimen should be followed?

I also believe there is a danger in parents indoctrinating their children and exerting control over them that is even scarier in some ways than the big bad boogeyman government that you fear....think scientologists and other religious cults. In public schools teachers are actively prohibited from indoctrinating students into a particular way of thinking. I'm not allowed to express my personal opinions or attempt to persuade students to think a certain way. I'm there to try to open up pathways of critical thinking and to challenge students to question things. As a public school teacher I would have felt extremely uncomfortable trying to persuade students to think about the world in a particular manner....that's indoctrination, not education. When Trump talks about the need for patriotic education it sounds like he wants to create public centers of indoctrination.

[Kriegsspiel]

I went to a small high school in a very small town; 52 in my graduating class.

32 in mine.

WV lulz