What Did Trump Do That Was So Bad?

[Kriegsspiel]

Why are leftist states the ones with the biggest lockdowns? Because the federal government subsidizes it. If there was no stimulus and no $600 week unemployment bonus from the feds, California couldn’t have shut down their state. Because they couldn’t afford to take care of their people put out of work. But uncle sugar steps in and subsidizes their bad decisions.

I’m all for liberal governors to be cut off and reap what they sow, to cause them to think twice in the future when making such decisions.

Bingo.

[sophie]

OK, I'll take the bait! Comments interspersed below.

THE BIDEN PLAN TO

Beat COVID-19
Joe Biden has a real strategy to take on the threat of COVID-19, deliver immediate relief to working families, and reopen our schools and businesses safely.

Cortopassi have you not been paying attention to ANYTHING I've been posting? Biden's strategy is not to reopen anything. He is going to lock the country down the moment he takes office. Lord only knows when he will decide that it's "safe" to reopen. By then the economy not to mention millions of lives will have been damaged almost irreparably, and most small businesses will have folded.

As far as "immediate relief to working families" - that's already in the works. Not Biden's doing, just Pelosi's doing to hold it up until after the election so she can ensure that Biden can be given credit.

BUILD BACK BETTER
Joe Biden's Jobs and Economic Recovery Plan for Working Families
In this time of crisis, Joe Biden has a plan to create millions of good-paying jobs and to build back better an economy that works for everyone.

I can't wait to hear about that plan. Since when has any government plan created "millions of good-paying jobs"? Cite me one example. I'll wait.

THE BIDEN PLAN TO
Give Every American Affordable Health Care
Joe Biden has a plan to build on the Affordable Care Act by giving Americans more choice, reducing health care costs, and making our health care system less complex to navigate.

Hmm. Sounds like he's backed off on Medicare as a public option. Shame, I rather liked that plan and this was the one positive item I could have ascribed to him. What he's said above is pure nonsense. How exactly is he going to convince private insurers to offer services in areas where they've already pulled out?

THE BIDEN PLAN TO
Restore American Leadership Abroad

I have zero expectations that Biden will do anything positive in this arena. Hopefully he will continue Trump's initiatives in trade with China and Middle East peace agreements. What is unfortunately more likely is that he will resume the endless war plan from the Bush & Obama years, and globalization will once again proceed apace with its negative consequences for the American middle class (i.e. the "deplorables").

THE BIDEN PLAN TO
Ensure the Future is "Made in America"

Hmm. Sounds straight out of Trump's book. Trump however understands what you need to do to make this happen. Biden does not. Many of Biden's already announced concrete plans will increase employer costs to hire and maintain employees & contractors. Companies will respond by doing more of what they did prior to Trump's administration: outsource everything under the sun to less expensive countries.

THE BIDEN PLAN TO
Secure our Values as a Nation of Immigrants

In other words, throw the southern border wide open. As I've said in the past, uncontrolled & illegal immigration is an expensive hobby. And of course the reason he's doing it are the following: 1) it will pump up the Democrat voter base. 2) It will suppress wages for the lower and middle classes, which will greatly please Wall Street and the Federal Reserve.

THE BIDEN PLAN TO
Support our Veterans

Sounds like something Trump has been quietly doing, and that Biden never did in all the years he had the opportunity to do it. Why the sudden interest?

[Cortopassi]

I guess we'll see Sophie.

It all comes back to I am saddened it's come to this. Trump , with even a FU(%ing MODICUM of presidentiality would have destroyed Biden or anyone else. Most of his policies are acceptable to me.

It is HIS OWN doing if he loses. Not cheating, not mail in ballots, not whatever. He effed it up himself.

I can't stress that enough. I can't do like tf and it seems most of you and not care how the sausage is made. The sausage is made by a guy I have grown extremely weary of.

**I know what you guys will come back with -- it's the dems! They never gave him a chance. Investigations immediately. Whatever. He could have tried to rise above it. But he's a fighter! He doesn't turn the other cheek! Well, then here we are.

[flyingpylon]

The fact that so many people treat elections like personality contests is the reason we get the politicians we deserve.

[doodle]

The fact that so many people treat elections like personality contests is the reason we get the politicians we deserve.

Personality traits like honesty, humility, compassion and empathy, responsibility...you know, leadership 101. Too bad he couldn't rise above it. He would have had my vote if he had.

[Cortopassi]

The fact that so many people treat elections like personality contests is the reason we get the politicians we deserve.

Personality traits like honesty, humility, compassion and empathy, responsibility...you know, leadership 101. Too bad he couldn't rise above it. He would have had my vote if he had.

tech,

You have at least about 3 people on this board who keep on bringing this up (about personality related decisions). Is there just no possibility of you at least partially agreeing (you may have in the past) that it is not all on the dems, the media, everybody, anybody except Trump himself?

I would say the more liberal minded folks here seem to have at least a bit of wiggle room in their assessment of what's happened in the past 4 years and what's going on now, evidenced by doodle's comment above.

I see almost zero ability to even partially concede anything related to Trump by you?

[Cortopassi]

The fact that so many people treat elections like personality contests is the reason we get the politicians we deserve.

Personality traits like honesty, humility, compassion and empathy, responsibility...you know, leadership 101. Too bad he couldn't rise above it. He would have had my vote if he had.

tech,

You have at least about 3 people on this board who keep on bringing this up (about personality related decisions). Is there just no possibility of you at least partially agreeing (you may have in the past) that it is not all on the dems, the media, everybody, anybody except Trump himself?

I would say the more liberal minded folks here seem to have at least a bit of wiggle room in their assessment of what's happened in the past 4 years and what's going on now, evidenced by doodle's comment above.

I see almost zero ability to even partially concede anything related to Trump by you?

When someone refuses to vote for a Presidential candidate based solely on his personality, when he agrees that that candidate's policies are better than his opponent's policies, he is beyond my ability to persuade of anything.

I am not asking for you to persuade me anymore. I am asking if you see anything at all wrong with how Trump goes about things, regardless of how you perceive the end results?

[vnatale]

Oh God.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonrei ... 46aefe51a7

Counter photo

After a Sunday rally, Obama swished a three-pointer in the gym. Obama: "It's what I do."

Vinny

[vnatale]

Wow, that is indeed very confused. The theological term "Immaculate Conception" refers to the Roman Catholic idea of the conception of Mary, not of Jesus. The Immaculate Conception is not the same thing as the virgin birth.

I did not know that! And I went to Catholic school for grades 1-8. Not that at that age they would have actually explained what the terms meant!

Now I have to believe it was just never said to me and it was not something I had forgot. I, thankfully, avoided the whole Catholic school experience. To us public school kids I don't think we ever heard on good thing about Catholic schools. I never knew anyone as a kid who went to one (prior to high school).

Vinny

[vnatale]

Here is one of the crazy parts of some of Trump's supporters. During one of his weekend rallies in Pennsylvania, Trump complained about the state's governor and said, something to the effect of, "Wait until he comes to me the next time with a need for the state!" And, the crowd wildly cheered!! Complete irrationality??!! Cheering for someone telling you that your state will not get federal assistance at the time of state need? I guess their credo must be, "If Trump says it then it's next to God saying it!"

Vinny

I assume it's similar in PA, but basing on IL, Pritker and Lightfoot have done nothing but criticize and ridicule everything Trump says or does. Everything. Over the years, there have been people who did not like me for whatever reason, and acted similarly toward me. I can tell you I had zero interest in being nice to them or coming to their aid if they needed something. You reap what you sow.

Not quite the same...but, more to the point, if you were at a Trump rally in Illinois and Trump announced he was going to not give full aid to your state at a time of need....would your response be....wild applause and screaming of approval?

It is why many Trump voters (especially the poorer ones) are accused of voting against their own interests.

Vinny

[vnatale]

Here is one of the crazy parts of some of Trump's supporters. During one of his weekend rallies in Pennsylvania, Trump complained about the state's governor and said, something to the effect of, "Wait until he comes to me the next time with a need for the state!" And, the crowd wildly cheered!! Complete irrationality??!! Cheering for someone telling you that your state will not get federal assistance at the time of state need? I guess their credo must be, "If Trump says it then it's next to God saying it!"

Vinny

I assume it's similar in PA, but basing on IL, Pritker and Lightfoot have done nothing but criticize and ridicule everything Trump says or does. Everything. Over the years, there have been people who did not like me for whatever reason, and acted similarly toward me. I can tell you I had zero interest in being nice to them or coming to their aid if they needed something. You reap what you sow.

Yeah, except it's the small guy who suffers.

Exactly!

Vinny

[Cortopassi]

Job number 1 for any elected official, and whoever gets elected should need to have concrete evidence they are capable of doing it:

--Be able to build a consensus among people and groups with significantly different positions--

The Art of the Deal guy fails miserably on this. You can spout or believe whatever you want about the underlying reasons on why he's failed. But he does not even try. That is no way to unify a country that is split right down the middle. His success, in the private sector did not translate one signle bit.

Being a middle of the road guy mostly, they all piss the hell out of me. Trump, Pelosi, McConnell, Schumer, Madigan, etc, etc, etc.

And that's all for me today. I will check in with you guys tomorrow. Hope we all can deal with whatever happens.

[sophie]

Cortopassi, I'm not so sure that Trump is really that bad at consensus building. You've certainly heard from the mainstream media about how bad he is at that, but....don't you have just the teensiest suspicion that this conclusion is not accurate? If Trump were really that bad, how could he possibly have accomplished what he has done in his first term?

That said - yes, I will absolutely acknowledge (and have, many times) that Trump's offhand comments and his tendency to self-congratulation makes me wince. I've compared him to that really, really annoying uncle we all have who makes Thankgiving dinner unnecessarily painful.

So now that I've met you halfway on that....would you at least reconsider the wisdom of choosing style over substance in making your presidential choice? I know you've already voted so the point is moot, but I'm still kinda shocked to hear this from an intelligent person on this forum, who has already shown themselves to be capable of thinking outside the box. Style is for clothes shopping and Christmas tree decorating. Not for running countries. I know you've already voted, but ... you can tell us if you're having second thoughts?

News flash: just got a call from my mother. She may have early Alzheimer's, but her common sense and good judgment are still intact. She had been telling me all summer how she hated Trump's behavior and liked Biden, but today she went to the polls and voted for Trump. She says she thinks Trump has done a lot of good and that Biden listens too much to other people. We ended up agreeing that the ideal would be Biden in office with Trump telling him what to do! Love that idea!!! And, GO MOM!!!!!!!

[vnatale]

The fact that so many people treat elections like personality contests is the reason we get the politicians we deserve.

Personality traits like honesty, humility, compassion and empathy, responsibility...you know, leadership 101. Too bad he couldn't rise above it. He would have had my vote if he had.

I have yet to witness any Trump supporters address the issue of Trump being a constant liar.

Who of any us continues to maintain a personal relationship with anyone who lies to us? Or, continues to do business with any one who lies to us?

That Trump supporters continue to support him tells me that many of them must be "the ends justifies the means" people. Obviously, Doodle, you and I are not one of those people. We have higher standards / expectations of our people.

We should have as president of our country someone who cannot be trusted.

Every day, at many points in our day, we put implicit trust in both people and institutions that we can trust them. How can Trump accomplish anything when those who interact with him cannot count on this basic trust in him?

Vinny

[Tortoise]

News flash: just got a call from my mother. She may have early Alzheimer's, but her common sense and good judgment are still intact. She had been telling me all summer how she hated Trump's behavior and liked Biden, but today she went to the polls and voted for Trump. She says she thinks Trump has done a lot of good and that Biden listens too much to other people. We ended up agreeing that the ideal would be Biden in office with Trump telling him what to do! Love that idea!!! And, GO MOM!!!!!!!

Classic example of how what people say they want is often not what they really want (as evidenced by what they actually choose).

I have yet to witness any Trump supporters address the issue of Trump being a constant liar.

Can you share your top three examples of what you consider to be Trump's biggest lies?

[Cortopassi]

Dammit, I said I wasn't going to answer.

Anything major he got through was 2017-2018 when he had both houses, right?

It seems the only thing in the past two years has pretty much been the first relief bill? And the USMCA?

I am happy to see he has reduced troops in other countries.

What happened to:
--infrastructure spending
--new/better healthcare plan
--DACA/immigration reform
--followon Covid relief bill

I am convincible, but show me the substance where he's built consensus and gotten something passed that a slightly left leaning person like me would applaud or at least be ok with?

Biden in office with Trump telling him what to do would probably not be a bad solution.

[Cortopassi]

News flash: just got a call from my mother. She may have early Alzheimer's, but her common sense and good judgment are still intact. She had been telling me all summer how she hated Trump's behavior and liked Biden, but today she went to the polls and voted for Trump. She says she thinks Trump has done a lot of good and that Biden listens too much to other people. We ended up agreeing that the ideal would be Biden in office with Trump telling him what to do! Love that idea!!! And, GO MOM!!!!!!!

Classic example of how what people say they want is often not what they really want (as evidenced by what they actually choose).

I have yet to witness any Trump supporters address the issue of Trump being a constant liar.

Can you share your top three examples of what you consider to be Trump's biggest lies?

That's a loaded question, you know. We can all link 50 sites with ease listing Trump's lies.

Can I assume the response would be along the lines of he's just exaggerating. Or grandstanding. Or joking?

Here's some anyway (which also prove a lie to him means diddly squat. Usually it is painful to lie. He does it as easily as the truth, if not easier). Which just makes it worse for him because people who tend to dislike him just believe everything is a lie:
------------------
Separation: “President Obama separated children from families,” Trump began saying in 2018, and has continued to repeat as recently as a few weeks ago, using a regular tactic of his in falsely placing blame for his policies on the previous administration. This is blatantly untrue. Unlike under the Trump administration, there was no official Obama policy of separating families and it did not happen outside of a few rare instances.

Popular vote:In addition to winning the Electoral College in a landslide, I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally

Inauguration: It was a “massive field of people … packed”, Trump said at CIA headquarters the following day, adding that God had stopped it from raining that day. (It in fact rained.)

9/11: During the campaign in 2015, Trump made the fantastical claim that he had watched “thousands and thousands” of Muslims cheering in New Jersey during the 9/11 attacks.

“It was on television. I saw it … There were people that were cheering on the other side of New Jersey, where you have large Arab populations. They were cheering as the World Trade Center came down,” he said on ABC.

No one has been able to find any evidence that this ever happened, but Trump has stood by his story all the same.

Father: “My father is German, right? Was German, and born in a very wonderful place in Germany.”

The president’s father, Fred Trump, was born in New York City.

[vnatale]

News flash: just got a call from my mother. She may have early Alzheimer's, but her common sense and good judgment are still intact. She had been telling me all summer how she hated Trump's behavior and liked Biden, but today she went to the polls and voted for Trump. She says she thinks Trump has done a lot of good and that Biden listens too much to other people. We ended up agreeing that the ideal would be Biden in office with Trump telling him what to do! Love that idea!!! And, GO MOM!!!!!!!

Classic example of how what people say they want is often not what they really want (as evidenced by what they actually choose).

I have yet to witness any Trump supporters address the issue of Trump being a constant liar.

Can you share your top three examples of what you consider to be Trump's biggest lies?

What is the point of that in the light of the below? He is a documented liar, not to be trusted by any normal person!

Vinny

Trump’s documented lies and misleading statements average over 50 per day, database says
The POTUS's daily falsehoods have made it impossible for fact checkers to keep up

https://thegrio.com/2020/10/22/trump-av ... s-per-day/

The Washington Post reports the 22,247 claims were made over the course of 1,316 days. Aug. 27 was the last day the database was able to update due to the sheer volume of the President’s lies. The report says that the journalists compiling the information are eight weeks behind in fact-checking Trump

[Cortopassi]

You guys keep on gyrating around the real issue. If you lie or exaggerate so often that everything you say is questioned, you've lost the ability to lead more than your base.

That's the simple answer. I have a hard time believing you guys willingly associate or hang around people in your lives who lie constantly.

[Kriegsspiel]

CLAIM
Cortopassi: "You guys keep on gyrating around the real issue. If you lie or exaggerate so often that everything you say is questioned, you've lost the ability to lead more than your base.

OUR RATING: PANTS ON FIRE

Forum member Cortopassi, who is alleged to have abused golden retriever puppies in 2011, claimed without evidence that forumites were "gyrating." Gyrating, which means to dance in a wild or suggestive manner or to move quickly in a circle, has not been witnessed from, nor admitted by, any member of the forum while discussing political issues. A leading expert, professor Penelope Gilligan of UCLA, has said that the number of Americans who gyrate is quite small, although in other cultures it may be more prevalent.

[Cortopassi]

CLAIM
Cortopassi: "You guys keep on gyrating around the real issue. If you lie or exaggerate so often that everything you say is questioned, you've lost the ability to lead more than your base.

OUR RATING: PANTS ON FIRE

Forum member Cortopassi, who is alleged to have abused golden retriever puppies in 2011, claimed without evidence that forumites were "gyrating." Gyrating, which means to dance in a wild or suggestive manner or to move quickly in a circle, has not been witnessed from, nor admitted by, any member of the forum while discussing political issues. A leading expert, professor Penelope Gilligan of UCLA, has said that the number of Americans who gyrate is quite small, although in other cultures it may be more prevalent.

Awesome, good laugh, thanks.

[vnatale]

You guys keep on gyrating around the real issue. If you lie or exaggerate so often that everything you say is questioned, you've lost the ability to lead more than your base.

That's the simple answer. I have a hard time believing you guys willingly associate or hang around people in your lives who lie constantly.

Yes. It's like being a trustworthy person is not something to be valued.

I can tell everyone right now that I will NEVER, ever tell any kind of lie here. One of my prime motivators in life is to be trusted. All that can get destroyed by one lie.

No one else other than a few of us seem to be bothered by the constant lying, which points to an untrustworthy person? As long as there are perceived ends, any means are okay to get there?

I had to look up the definition of "trustworthy" to make sure it's meaning had not changed on me: "able to be relied on as honest or truthful".

Still the same! Therefore if one is not honest or truthful ONE IS NOT TRUSTWORTHY!!!

I'd always thought that people prized being able to put trust in other people. That that was a prime trait in valuing a friend, an employees, a coworker, an employer. Guess not!

Vinny

[vnatale]

It's like being a trustworthy person is not something to be valued.

That's why Biden is best. We can trust him. Trump lies about how many people attended his rally.

Biden is honest. If he says he didn't get his son a job in the Ukraine then we know we can trust him. Because of his truthfulness.

For your information I did write in Tulsi Gabbard today.

And, see if you can get this one...."My nightmare was that Trump would win. He did not. My nightmare was that Biden would win..."

Vinny

[doodle]

It's like being a trustworthy person is not something to be valued.

That's why Biden is best. We can trust him. Trump lies about how many people attended his rally.

Biden is honest. If he says he didn't get his son a job in the Ukraine then we know we can trust him. Because of his truthfulness.

Biden lies too....but no one lies like Trump. His lies are so prodigious that it's almost not even lying anymore because what he says is so unbelievable that it's almost a joke. One would have to be an idiot to believe anything he says.

Also, notice how I voted for Biden but criticize him profusely...and will do so if he gets into office.. That's the interesting thing about the conservative mind...once they lock onto something that they identify as part of their 'tribe' it becomes suddenly beyond reproach. Vinny asks a straightforward question about Trump and Tom deflects...with his usual whataboutism.

[Libertarian666]

You guys keep on gyrating around the real issue. If you lie or exaggerate so often that everything you say is questioned, you've lost the ability to lead more than your base.

That's the simple answer. I have a hard time believing you guys willingly associate or hang around people in your lives who lie constantly.

The only time Joe Biden isn't lying is when he is saying something totally incomprehensible.
But don't let me interrupt your dream. It will be over soon enough.