The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

glennds
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by glennds » Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:46 pm

InsuranceGuy wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:27 pm
doodle wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:19 pm
How does anyone live on less than 15 an hour anyways?
Why get the govenment in the middle of the free market?
I agree with this to a point. But it's important to remember that it was the post Depression New Deal programs that provided for unionization and labor standards. This in turn abolished the pre-Depression exploitation of workers and ultimately paved the way for the development of the suburban middle class, which led to decades of postwar economic expansion.

Too much government intervention has its drawbacks, but if it were an Ayn Rand world with none, the natural outcome would be exploitation by whomever has the leverage, and another gilded age of extreme disparity.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by D1984 » Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:51 pm

sophie wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 9:54 am

D1984's post though is a good example of why you're so pessimistic. If I had the time today I could easily rebut practically every sentence in it (and so could you). But, I don't. D, could you please do some of your own fact checking???

Will just say one thing: the minimum wage vs contract work split is precisely along party lines. It is an article of faith among Democrats that a higher minimum wage will be good for the middle class. Republicans however can point to plenty of data showing that increasing the minimum wage decreases available entry level jobs, which kinda just makes sense. So if you passed a minimum wage law AND banned contract work, you'd really be putting the screws on.
What specifically was wrong? You could quibble some on the productivity growth figures (if when calculating real inflation-adjusted productivity growth one uses the NDP deflator instead of the CPI deflator you get about 0.21% less growth per year from the early 1970s to 2006 and about 0.05% less growth a year from 2006 to 2018; I had already presumed this objection which is why I said something like "around $20 an hour" instead of "upwards of $24 an hour" which is where it would be if you used the method of inflation adjustment that would show higher economy-wide productivity growth in real inflation adjusted terms) but it is as clear as day that the minimum wage has not even kept up with inflation even if one assumes ZERO productivity growth (in which case the minimum would need to be around $12.11 just to keep up with inflation).

As far as the minimum wage causing job losses/higher unemployment....ever since Krueger and Card in the mid 1990s this has been an issue of contention. I do know that the same people who are against any increase in the minimum wage also tend to believe in factually incorrect notions like tax cuts fully paying for themselves, trickle-down supply side economics actually working, and that every time we try to do anything at all that will decrease profits or increase costs in the least for business owners or the wealthy (e.g. a minimum wage, worker's comp for on the job injuries, payroll taxes, higher income taxes, anti-discrimination laws, equal pay laws, laws allowing workers to unionize and making employers bargain in good faith, employee health and occupational safety regulations, laws against pollution, laws against child labor, unemployment compensation, requiring employers to provide at least a minimum of health insurance coverage, Medicare, Medicaid, any form of a welfare state funded at all by taxes, etc) it will inevitably backfire and hurt everyone and cause The End Of The World (and of the free market) As We Know It and we will all grow up in a socialist slave state where we sadly tell our grandchildren what it was like in America when people were actually free....and yet somehow when measures like these get passed the economy mostly does just fine despite these gloomy predictions. This has been the case for at least the last hundred years or so.

If minimum wages seriously hurt employment, how do you explain that the US reached some of its best (i.e. lowest) unemployment rates circa 1966-1969 when the minimum wage was at an all time high in real inflation-adjusted (and CPI deflator or NDP deflator productivity-adjusted) terms?
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Post by doodle » Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:40 pm

If minimum wages seriously hurt employment, how do you explain that the US reached some of its best (i.e. lowest) unemployment rates circa 1966-1969 when the minimum wage was at an all time high in real inflation-adjusted (and CPI deflator or NDP deflator productivity-adjusted) terms
Empirical results > theories
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by vnatale » Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:49 pm

doodle wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:40 pm
If minimum wages seriously hurt employment, how do you explain that the US reached some of its best (i.e. lowest) unemployment rates circa 1966-1969 when the minimum wage was at an all time high in real inflation-adjusted (and CPI deflator or NDP deflator productivity-adjusted) terms
Empirical results > theories
There are so many factors in the unemployment rate. You cannot pick just one of the factors and say it was highly correlated with the unemployment rate. In fact, it could actually be a negative correlation, in general, but for that given time period several of the other factors had outsized positive impact which then made it appear that one factor was also positively correlated.

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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by pmward » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:57 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:49 pm
doodle wrote:
Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:40 pm
If minimum wages seriously hurt employment, how do you explain that the US reached some of its best (i.e. lowest) unemployment rates circa 1966-1969 when the minimum wage was at an all time high in real inflation-adjusted (and CPI deflator or NDP deflator productivity-adjusted) terms
Empirical results > theories
There are so many factors in the unemployment rate. You cannot pick just one of the factors and say it was highly correlated with the unemployment rate. In fact, it could actually be a negative correlation, in general, but for that given time period several of the other factors had outsized positive impact which then made it appear that one factor was also positively correlated.

Vinny
The Fed recently threw out the Phillips Curve because they realized that inflation and unemployment are not as correlated as they once believed.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by InsuranceGuy » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:19 am

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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by InsuranceGuy » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:50 am

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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by pmward » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:11 am

You can count me as undecided on the minimum wage issue. I can make an argument both ways. I think a minimum wage is kind of a bandaid though instead of a fix.

It's obvious that we have an issue with a "wealth gap" in our country that is a problem. It's also obvious that both parties see this gap but offer different solutions. The Democrats look to more social and redistribution policies like an increased minimum wage, while the right is currently more looking for nationalism, protectionism, and reduced corporate taxes with prayers that a trickledown happens as their solution. The left is looking for direct fixes, the right is looking for indirect fixes.

So at the end of the day, both sides do have the common ground in agreeing that the lower and middle classes have been screwed over the last 20 years. I can see scenarios where an increased minimum wage can both help and hurt. I still think that most of these issues all come down to the fact that our economy has been growing at a snails pace. The bar for GDP growth keeps getting lower and lower. So what is the real cause of our sluggish economy? Crap demographics, low population growth, and high debt levels in the private sector (particularly in the corporate realm these days, household debt is actually not that bad at the moment). All these things are like anchors holding wage growth down.

Obviously globalization did have a big deflationary impact as well, but these days not so much as the arbitrage in cost has been mostly closed. For instance, it's not really that much cheaper to manufacture in China than here these days. Even before Trump took office there was already a shift in companies wanting to bring more manufacturing back here as the cost to produce overseas moved up to the point that it was no longer worth the hassle in a lot of cases. So I think the whole nationalism, protectionism movement is 20 years too late. That boat has already sailed for the most part. It was always inevitable that eventually the gap in cost of production by region would run its course and the playing field would become more even leaving efficiency, logistics, and skill set expertise as the main differentiators.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by pmward » Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:36 am

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:24 am
pmward wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 11:11 am
it's not really that much cheaper to manufacture in China than here these days.
How do you figure? Labor costs are still massively lower in China, especially when you factor in benefits such as health care and retirement plans.
They're not really that much cheaper these days. Look at what wage growth has been like in China over the last 20 years. The "arbitrage" has been happening. Over the last 20 years their wages and benefits have been growing at a fast pace, and ours have been stagnating. So manufacturing in China has become less and less attractive by the day.

Let us also not forget that most companies that started going to China 20 years ago assumed in their cost benefit analysis that the cheaper wages and costs would always be there pretty much indefinitely. Most companies have been shocked at how quickly cost to manufacture in China has went up. Many companies have fallen way short of the ROI they expected by manufacturing in China. It was a large investment to move there, then to have costs go up at a very fast pace year after year, it changed the math mid-way through the game.

You also have to look at logistics. In manufacturing there are additional logistical costs like shipping that come into play.

Being someone who has had to manage foreign contractors in the past, I can tell you it is also not an efficient process. It is a headache. It takes a lot of time and money to babysit the foreign contractors.

Language barriers can make things difficult and cause them to have to do rework because of language misunderstanding.

There is less flexibility, since you're dealing with a different company in an entirely different region. This makes the process more fragile, and that fragility does fail at times and has a cost attached to it.

For these reasons and others, companies were already beginning to sour on manufacturing in China long before the Trump isolationism movement. This movement is too little, too late. The damage is already done. Things were already beginning to shift on their own simply based purely on the "free market". The way China's demographics are looking over the next 10 years, costs are likely to continue to go up. Best at this point to just let the "free market" finish it's process, and complete the inevitable trend towards a fully global economy unimpeded. At this point in the process, the scales start to slowly tip back in our favor over time.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by sophie » Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:59 pm

Of course it's cheaper to manufacture in China than in the US. Substantially so.

If that weren't the case, why would Apple be manufacturing virtually every one of its products in China? Why is practically everything sold on Amazon made in China? Why was it that virtually every piece of equipment, supplies, and pharmaceuticals in US hospitals turned out to come from China? If you remember, that turned out to be a major problem early in the pandemic when China throttled back on exports of medical goods to the US in order to keep its own hospitals supplied. And, why do you think Trump was interested in imposing tariffs on Chinese imports? After all, it's logistically much more difficult (and expensive) to have to deal with overseas manufacturing. These companies wouldn't be doing this unless it were profitable.

And it's not necessarily only about China. There are other countries that have attracted US manufacturing due to low wages & a minimally constraining regulatory environment: Vietnam, Korea, the Maldives, Thailand, Sri Lanka.

Fixing the things that drive up the cost of US manufacturing is something that should be high on everyone's list. Too bad it's not as exciting as a pandemic of positive COVID tests. The minimum wage isn't the only factor to be sure, but making things worse by increasing certainly doesn't help.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by pmward » Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:15 pm

sophie wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 12:59 pm

If that weren't the case, why would Apple be manufacturing virtually every one of its products in China? Why is practically everything sold on Amazon made in China?
Why is it that Apple in recent years has been moving manufacturing back to the U.S.? Why is it that companies like Taiwan Semiconductor and FoxConn made moves in recent years to produce in the U.S.?

The COVID issue you bring up later in the post actually further strengthens my argument here. If you look at what companies have said after the COVID supply chain issues, they've all said that having one point of failure in manufacturing was bad. The trend amongst companies these days going towards diversified manufacturing. Having manufacturing setup in multiple countries and continents to reduce the potential for failure. Considering there has been a large outflow of manufacturing from the North American continent over the last 20 years, this means more flows coming back. The trends are already in place, all you have to do is pay attention to what companies have been saying. They don't need the Federal government to force them to manufacture here, they want to bring some manufacturing back here regardless. Now, manufacturing jobs take time to transition. This is the problem with having that single point of failure, there's a lot of infrastructure that needs to be brought up to speed here in the U.S. It's a slow process, just like it was a slow process transitioning to Asia. But it is happening.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:42 pm

InsuranceGuy wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:50 am
Also, many nations have no minimum wage such as Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. Why get the government involved when we can let the labor unions work out solutions that work out the best solution for each industry?

Because in the United States if you are against minimum wage you are also against labor unions.

Some cantons in Switzerland have minimum wage I believe. I remember reading about Geneva setting it at 25 bucks an hour if I'm not mistaken.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by sophie » Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:43 pm

pmward wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:15 pm
Why is it that Apple in recent years has been moving manufacturing back to the U.S.? Why is it that companies like Taiwan Semiconductor and FoxConn made moves in recent years to produce in the U.S.?
You seriously don't know the answer to that question????

It's because the Trump administration forced the issue by instituting tariffs plus other measures designed to keep American corporate money in the country. If you let the mainstream media do your thinking for you, that would be quite understandable that you missed that bit of cause & effect. Apple sure as heck didn't decide to make that shift for no reason.

This is a prime example of why I started this thread. "The New American Populism" as I've described it is not exactly new - it's actually about four years old now. Because, once you take Trump's name off the label, suddenly you seem to like those policies, or at least their results. Interesting how that works.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by pmward » Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:47 pm

sophie wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:43 pm
pmward wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:15 pm
Why is it that Apple in recent years has been moving manufacturing back to the U.S.? Why is it that companies like Taiwan Semiconductor and FoxConn made moves in recent years to produce in the U.S.?
You seriously don't know the answer to that question????

It's because the Trump administration forced the issue by instituting tariffs plus other measures designed to keep American corporate money in the country. If you let the mainstream media do your thinking for you, that would be quite understandable that you missed that bit of cause & effect. Apple sure as heck didn't decide to make that shift for no reason.

This is a prime example of why I started this thread. "The New American Populism" as I've described it is not exactly new - it's actually about four years old now. Because, once you take Trump's name off the label, suddenly you seem to like those policies, or at least their results. Interesting how that works.
Sorry, but Apples Mesa AZ plant was their first push to brining manufacturing back to the states, and this pre-dated Trump. Mind you, during Trumps administration they did convert that plant away from manufacturing to a data center. But still, it's not just Trump's tariffs.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:48 pm

sophie wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:43 pm
pmward wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:15 pm
Why is it that Apple in recent years has been moving manufacturing back to the U.S.? Why is it that companies like Taiwan Semiconductor and FoxConn made moves in recent years to produce in the U.S.?
You seriously don't know the answer to that question????

It's because the Trump administration forced the issue by instituting tariffs plus other measures designed to keep American corporate money in the country. If you let the mainstream media do your thinking for you, that would be quite understandable that you missed that bit of cause & effect. Apple sure as heck didn't decide to make that shift for no reason.

This is a prime example of why I started this thread. "The New American Populism" as I've described it is not exactly new - it's actually about four years old now. Because, once you take Trump's name off the label, suddenly you seem to like those policies, or at least their results. Interesting how that works.
Better to build here....however I wonder how many jobs this will create vs how much of production will be automated. If you believe in AI automation then all of these are just temporary bandaids according to Andrew Yang.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by pmward » Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:51 pm

doodle wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:48 pm
sophie wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:43 pm
pmward wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:15 pm
Why is it that Apple in recent years has been moving manufacturing back to the U.S.? Why is it that companies like Taiwan Semiconductor and FoxConn made moves in recent years to produce in the U.S.?
You seriously don't know the answer to that question????

It's because the Trump administration forced the issue by instituting tariffs plus other measures designed to keep American corporate money in the country. If you let the mainstream media do your thinking for you, that would be quite understandable that you missed that bit of cause & effect. Apple sure as heck didn't decide to make that shift for no reason.

This is a prime example of why I started this thread. "The New American Populism" as I've described it is not exactly new - it's actually about four years old now. Because, once you take Trump's name off the label, suddenly you seem to like those policies, or at least their results. Interesting how that works.
Better to build here....however I wonder how many jobs this will create vs how much of production will be automated. If you believe in AI automation then all of these are just temporary bandaids according to Andrew Yang.
Yes another argument I made on this matter in another thread here quite awhile ago is that manufacturing jobs are deprecated. They aren't obsolete yet, but they are certainly on their way. If the jobs come here from the "free market" choosing to bring them here that's one thing. But the government trying to force a dying industry to come here is kind of moot. They would be better off investing their time and efforts on new industries that have much more long term potential... like green energy.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:55 pm

pmward wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:51 pm
doodle wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:48 pm
sophie wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:43 pm
pmward wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:15 pm
Why is it that Apple in recent years has been moving manufacturing back to the U.S.? Why is it that companies like Taiwan Semiconductor and FoxConn made moves in recent years to produce in the U.S.?
You seriously don't know the answer to that question????

It's because the Trump administration forced the issue by instituting tariffs plus other measures designed to keep American corporate money in the country. If you let the mainstream media do your thinking for you, that would be quite understandable that you missed that bit of cause & effect. Apple sure as heck didn't decide to make that shift for no reason.

This is a prime example of why I started this thread. "The New American Populism" as I've described it is not exactly new - it's actually about four years old now. Because, once you take Trump's name off the label, suddenly you seem to like those policies, or at least their results. Interesting how that works.
Better to build here....however I wonder how many jobs this will create vs how much of production will be automated. If you believe in AI automation then all of these are just temporary bandaids according to Andrew Yang.
Yes another argument I made on this matter in another thread here quite awhile ago is that manufacturing jobs are deprecated. They aren't obsolete yet, but they are certainly on their way. If the jobs come here from the "free market" choosing to bring them here that's one thing. But the government trying to force a dying industry to come here is kind of moot. They would be better off investing their time and efforts on new industries that have much more long term potential... like green energy.
We see eye to eye once again.

I'm curious, if one believes in free markets without government interference, then how are punitive government tariffs ok?
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by pmward » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:00 pm

doodle wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:55 pm
pmward wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:51 pm
doodle wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:48 pm
sophie wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:43 pm
pmward wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:15 pm
Why is it that Apple in recent years has been moving manufacturing back to the U.S.? Why is it that companies like Taiwan Semiconductor and FoxConn made moves in recent years to produce in the U.S.?
You seriously don't know the answer to that question????

It's because the Trump administration forced the issue by instituting tariffs plus other measures designed to keep American corporate money in the country. If you let the mainstream media do your thinking for you, that would be quite understandable that you missed that bit of cause & effect. Apple sure as heck didn't decide to make that shift for no reason.

This is a prime example of why I started this thread. "The New American Populism" as I've described it is not exactly new - it's actually about four years old now. Because, once you take Trump's name off the label, suddenly you seem to like those policies, or at least their results. Interesting how that works.
Better to build here....however I wonder how many jobs this will create vs how much of production will be automated. If you believe in AI automation then all of these are just temporary bandaids according to Andrew Yang.
Yes another argument I made on this matter in another thread here quite awhile ago is that manufacturing jobs are deprecated. They aren't obsolete yet, but they are certainly on their way. If the jobs come here from the "free market" choosing to bring them here that's one thing. But the government trying to force a dying industry to come here is kind of moot. They would be better off investing their time and efforts on new industries that have much more long term potential... like green energy.
We see eye to eye once again.

I'm curious, if one believes in free markets without government interference, then how are punitive government tariffs ok?
Of course, the obvious answer is they are not. The obvious answer is that wherever the market chooses to build its goods at any given time is the right choice. Anyone who works in a dying industry is best to find another industry instead of asking the government to intervene. This stuff is cyclical. We went through the same issues when the U.S. swapped from agricultural to industrial. Farmers were pissed that "they took our jorbs" just like industrial workers are today. We are going through the same transition now from industrial to technological. There is no stopping this transition, the best the government can do is slow it down, but is that really smart? To cling to a dying industry instead of investing into blossoming industries? To also risk us losing our seat as the #1 country for innovation by discouraging workers from moving to these newer more lucrative industries?
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by pmward » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:04 pm

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Post by doodle » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:08 pm


To cling to a dying industry instead of investing into blossoming industries? To also risk us losing our seat as the #1 country for innovation by discouraging workers from moving to these newer more lucrative industries?
I feel this everytime I hear someone mention coal....like, really? The future of american energy lies in 18th century technology? What's next, a return to horse and buggies?
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by pmward » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:15 pm

doodle wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:08 pm

To cling to a dying industry instead of investing into blossoming industries? To also risk us losing our seat as the #1 country for innovation by discouraging workers from moving to these newer more lucrative industries?
I feel this everytime I hear someone mention coal....like, really? The future of american energy lies in 18th century technology? What's next, a return to horse and buggies?
Yep. Any obsolete industry like coal will stick around in some form for a long time. But it's no longer an industry for growth. There's not a lot of profit to be had there. We aren't going to improve our economy nor our standard of living by investing in more coal plants. BUT we will create a whole lot of new high paying jobs by investing in R&D for green energy and building up all the infrastructure that goes along with it. Manufacturing is not quite obsolete yet, but it should not be the focus point of federal planning as it is a slowly dying industry.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by vnatale » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:47 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:52 pm
doodle wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:42 pm
InsuranceGuy wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:50 am
Also, many nations have no minimum wage such as Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. Why get the government involved when we can let the labor unions work out solutions that work out the best solution for each industry?

Because in the United States if you are against minimum wage you are also against labor unions.
What do you know? I am against minimum wage laws and also against labor unions, especially public sector. Thanks for clearing that up for me, Doodle. :P
Once I crossed over to the management side, I became anti-union and have remained so the last 40 years. The only union I like is the Major League Baseball players one because they are so extremely effective.

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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by Ad Orientem » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:11 am

Michigan Rep. Paul Mitchell quits GOP over party’s refusal to accept Trump loss to Biden

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/14/michiga ... biden.html

The man was already retiring so I'm not sure how courageous this is. But I give him credit at least for the public statement of principle.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by SomeDude » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:33 am

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:52 pm
doodle wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:42 pm
InsuranceGuy wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:50 am
Also, many nations have no minimum wage such as Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. Why get the government involved when we can let the labor unions work out solutions that work out the best solution for each industry?

Because in the United States if you are against minimum wage you are also against labor unions.
What do you know? I am against minimum wage laws and also against labor unions, especially public sector. Thanks for clearing that up for me, Doodle. :P
Ditto, except i think non government workers have every right to ruin their company and lower their wages by forming a union. I have no problem with people voluntarily forming a union, as long as it's not compulsory and the good workers realize they are sacrificing their pay to prop up the lazy.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by SomeDude » Tue Dec 15, 2020 3:35 am

vnatale wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:47 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:52 pm
doodle wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:42 pm
InsuranceGuy wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:50 am
Also, many nations have no minimum wage such as Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. Why get the government involved when we can let the labor unions work out solutions that work out the best solution for each industry?

Because in the United States if you are against minimum wage you are also against labor unions.
What do you know? I am against minimum wage laws and also against labor unions, especially public sector. Thanks for clearing that up for me, Doodle. :P
Once I crossed over to the management side, I became anti-union and have remained so the last 40 years. The only union I like is the Major League Baseball players one because they are so extremely effective.

Vinny
I'm in management too. We have an elevator speech for any time we here an employee mention unionizing. It would really destroy us and harm the workers badly. No labor unions are allowed on our property to talk to our people.

I'm with a company on the DOW
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