The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:55 am

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:52 pm
doodle wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:42 pm
InsuranceGuy wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:50 am
Also, many nations have no minimum wage such as Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. Why get the government involved when we can let the labor unions work out solutions that work out the best solution for each industry?

Because in the United States if you are against minimum wage you are also against labor unions.
What do you know? I am against minimum wage laws and also against labor unions, especially public sector. Thanks for clearing that up for me, Doodle. :P
I think minimum wage laws are by and large harmful. Ditto labor unions, especially public sector.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:19 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:52 pm
doodle wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:42 pm
InsuranceGuy wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:50 am
Also, many nations have no minimum wage such as Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. Why get the government involved when we can let the labor unions work out solutions that work out the best solution for each industry?

Because in the United States if you are against minimum wage you are also against labor unions.
What do you know? I am against minimum wage laws and also against labor unions, especially public sector. Thanks for clearing that up for me, Doodle. :P

How about child labor laws?
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:31 pm

Well if you against minimum wage, and unions, why not child labor laws? Why should the government intervene anywhere? How do you decide where they should intervene? Aren't you just drawing a line at an arbitrary point and proclaiming that it is precisely here and no further?
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:36 pm

I personally favor the German way with mitbestimmung. If a large corporation wants government sanction and unique treatment then I think that workers should be able to participate on the board of directors...maybe have a say when all these ceos who belong to this little club who sit on each others boards start writing massive severance packages for each other and golden parachutes and huge stock payout bonuses. Obviously shareholders are not holding them to reasonable standards... probably because majority shareholders and most of the votes also belong to members of the same club.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:19 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:43 pm
doodle wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:31 pm
Well if you against minimum wage, and unions, why not child labor laws? Why should the government intervene anywhere? How do you decide where they should intervene? Aren't you just drawing a line at an arbitrary point and proclaiming that it is precisely here and no further?
The government should intervene as little as possible. Children are not capable of making decisions, therefore this may be an exception.

Unions are not government induced anyway, they are an evil incarnation independent of government meddling.
Why not let the parents make the decision? If parents want their children to work and earn money for family mining coal or whatever then why should government get involved in a private family decision?

Why are labor unions evil? People with common interests shouldn't have right to freely associate and organize? That doesn't sound very libertarian to me.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by vnatale » Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:54 pm

doodle wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:19 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 7:52 pm
doodle wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:42 pm
InsuranceGuy wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:50 am
Also, many nations have no minimum wage such as Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden, and Switzerland. Why get the government involved when we can let the labor unions work out solutions that work out the best solution for each industry?

Because in the United States if you are against minimum wage you are also against labor unions.
What do you know? I am against minimum wage laws and also against labor unions, especially public sector. Thanks for clearing that up for me, Doodle. :P

How about child labor laws?
I am DEFINITELY for those, as long as they are common sense.

Vinny
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:36 pm

doodle wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:19 pm
How about child labor laws?
Child labor laws, while well intentioned, aren't black and white. They protect the mediocre but stilt the capable.

I was chomping at the bit to go into construction at 14. (I had taken the CA General Contractor's test on a whim, and aced it.)
I finally talked an uncle into letting me work on the job site at 15, but if anyone showed up, I had to just pretend to be carrying material from one place to another. No using power tools in public.

So, after a few weeks of explaining to the journeymen how to cut stair risers and calculate hip-joists and how to cut a compound angle, they just finally gave up and let me use the saw all day. I had a blast.

I'm not in favor of putting 6 year olds in factories making tennis shoes, but I am appalled that young teens are infantilized to the extent that they are today. What a huge loss it is to actively prevent our youth from maturing at whatever pace they can.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:45 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:36 pm
doodle wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:19 pm
How about child labor laws?
Child labor laws, while well intentioned, aren't black and white. They protect the mediocre but stilt the capable.

I was chomping at the bit to go into construction at 14. (I had taken the CA General Contractor's test on a whim, and aced it.)
I finally talked an uncle into letting me work on the job site at 15, but if anyone showed up, I had to just pretend to be carrying material from one place to another. No using power tools in public.

So, after a few weeks of explaining to the journeymen how to cut stair risers and calculate hip-joists and how to cut a compound angle, they just finally gave up and let me use the saw all day. I had a blast.

I'm not in favor of putting 6 year olds in factories making tennis shoes, but I am appalled that young teens are infantilized to the extent that they are today. What a huge loss it is to actively prevent our youth from maturing at whatever pace they can.
Yes, as with anything it's complicated. I'm not sure what the answer is. Certainly your situation is different from sending children into coal mines...
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:55 pm

I kind of like to think about our system analogously to an internal combustion engine or other machine

In order for the engine to function properly all parts must work harmoniously together. There is no one part that is more important than another when it all comes together. Sure you could loose a head bolt or two and still run...your oil pan gasket could leak and you'd be ok...but eventually you continue to neglect these little parts and you are headed for a breakdown. Bezos and Musk and these titans are like the pistons. They drive us forward...but they don't function in isolation. You lose one tooth on your crankshaft, or a valve spring jams and it doesn't matter how much displacement you have, your engine is going to run like shit or not at all.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:03 am

doodle wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:55 pm
I kind of like to think about our system analogously to an internal combustion engine or other machine

In order for the engine to function properly all parts must work harmoniously together. There is no one part that is more important than another when it all comes together. Sure you could loose a head bolt or two and still run...your oil pan gasket could leak and you'd be ok...but eventually you continue to neglect these little parts and you are headed for a breakdown. Bezos and Musk and these titans are like the pistons. They drive us forward...but they don't function in isolation. You lose one tooth on your crankshaft, or a valve spring jams and it doesn't matter how much displacement you have, your engine is going to run like shit or not at all.
And labor unions are the gunk in the fuel line that gums up the whole shebang. ;D
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:51 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:03 am
doodle wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:55 pm
I kind of like to think about our system analogously to an internal combustion engine or other machine

In order for the engine to function properly all parts must work harmoniously together. There is no one part that is more important than another when it all comes together. Sure you could loose a head bolt or two and still run...your oil pan gasket could leak and you'd be ok...but eventually you continue to neglect these little parts and you are headed for a breakdown. Bezos and Musk and these titans are like the pistons. They drive us forward...but they don't function in isolation. You lose one tooth on your crankshaft, or a valve spring jams and it doesn't matter how much displacement you have, your engine is going to run like shit or not at all.
And labor unions are the gunk in the fuel line that gums up the whole shebang. ;D
So you are against individuals with common interests freely associating, planning, and organizing? Are you against management and board of directors?
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:56 am

On a related topic, Can you explain how it is that Trump wanted to import drugs from Canada in order to attempt to lower prices?
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:21 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:03 am
doodle wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:55 pm
I kind of like to think about our system analogously to an internal combustion engine or other machine

In order for the engine to function properly all parts must work harmoniously together. There is no one part that is more important than another when it all comes together. Sure you could loose a head bolt or two and still run...your oil pan gasket could leak and you'd be ok...but eventually you continue to neglect these little parts and you are headed for a breakdown. Bezos and Musk and these titans are like the pistons. They drive us forward...but they don't function in isolation. You lose one tooth on your crankshaft, or a valve spring jams and it doesn't matter how much displacement you have, your engine is going to run like shit or not at all.
And labor unions are the gunk in the fuel line that gums up the whole shebang. ;D
I do not know how many here are aware of and who know who Peter Drucker was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Drucker

He wrote business books.

Back in 1980 I was with a company where all its managers were in their late 20s to early 30s. We all worshiped Peter Drucker. When the company bought his latest book we'd almost fight one another over who got to read it first.

I'm thinking it had to have been this book that so affected my thinking on unions.

Managing in Turbulent Times

https://www.amazon.com/Managing-Turbule ... 429&sr=8-1



In that book he explained how there was definitely a need for unions earlier in the century. When management and owners kept too much of "the pie" and the actual workers did not get their fair share of "the pie".

However, now (from the point of view of 1980) almost the entire pie was being paid out to workers. Thus no longer a need for unions. The only thing a union now could do was just take a slice of that pie for itself, thereby taking away from the workers.

He also pointed out that the welfare and interest of the union member workers is never the highest priority of the union. The always first priority of the union is the survival of the union.

He basically painted the current (again from the point of view of 1980) union as being similar to a parasite.

The above is all from my 40 year old memory of the one time I eagerly and quickly read that new book from our beloved Peter Drucker.

Vinny
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:46 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 7:21 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 6:03 am
doodle wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:55 pm
I kind of like to think about our system analogously to an internal combustion engine or other machine

In order for the engine to function properly all parts must work harmoniously together. There is no one part that is more important than another when it all comes together. Sure you could loose a head bolt or two and still run...your oil pan gasket could leak and you'd be ok...but eventually you continue to neglect these little parts and you are headed for a breakdown. Bezos and Musk and these titans are like the pistons. They drive us forward...but they don't function in isolation. You lose one tooth on your crankshaft, or a valve spring jams and it doesn't matter how much displacement you have, your engine is going to run like shit or not at all.
And labor unions are the gunk in the fuel line that gums up the whole shebang. ;D
I do not know how many here are aware of and who know who Peter Drucker was.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Drucker

He wrote business books.

Back in 1980 I was with a company where all its managers were in their late 20s to early 30s. We all worshiped Peter Drucker. When the company bought his latest book we'd almost fight one another over who got to read it first.

I'm thinking it had to have been this book that so affected my thinking on unions.

Managing in Turbulent Times

https://www.amazon.com/Managing-Turbule ... 429&sr=8-1



In that book he explained how there was definitely a need for unions earlier in the century. When management and owners kept too much of "the pie" and the actual workers did not get their fair share of "the pie".

However, now (from the point of view of 1980) almost the entire pie was being paid out to workers. Thus no longer a need for unions. The only thing a union now could do was just take a slice of that pie for itself, thereby taking away from the workers.

He also pointed out that the welfare and interest of the union member workers is never the highest priority of the union. The always first priority of the union is the survival of the union.

He basically painted the current (again from the point of view of 1980) union as being similar to a parasite.

The above is all from my 40 year old memory of the one time I eagerly and quickly read that new book from our beloved Peter Drucker.

Vinny
That sounds like a more reasoned approach to the issue. I will not argue that Unions are perfect. I think there are cases where they can gum things up. I do however think that we are going to have increasing challenges moving forward with extreme social wealth stratification and a small number of haves and a large number of have nots that will be very destabilizing. We are going to need some creative thinking to deal with this as more and more people are dislocated by automation and AI. It's coming whether we like it or not.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:27 am

In my not so humble opinion, I think labor unions played a big part of moving and/or losing US industry/jobs to offshore countries/companies. Automobiles, aircraft, electronics, electronics customer service, appliances, chemicals, ship building, lumber, etc. I saw it happening first hand in my company throughout my career and was privy to a lot of the reasoning of higher management as the moving of facilities and related employment off shore accelerated. :'(
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:02 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:27 am
In my not so humble opinion, I think labor unions played a big part of moving and/or losing US industry/jobs to offshore countries/companies. Automobiles, aircraft, electronics, electronics customer service, appliances, chemicals, ship building, lumber, etc. I saw it happening first hand in my company throughout my career and was privy to a lot of the reasoning of higher management as the moving of facilities and related employment off shore accelerated. :'(
Sure, I don't doubt that. Unions probably failed to recognize the growing threat from increasingly global supply chains. But what choice did they have? Should workers here have accepted salaries of two dollars an hour to compete with chinese?

Soon, every worker is going to be competing with robots. When goods can be produced with out labor capitalism is going to have to come up with some creative solutions....otherwise, I'm afraid the whole thing is going to crumble. How does one sell products to people that don't have jobs or the means to earning a living? We really need to be realistic about this.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:06 am

The biggest issues is this increasingly automated future is not currently oriented in a human centric way. In theory it's great that robot slaves can take over all the mudane back breaking jobs..and maybe soon white collar jobs that require higher order thinking skills as well. I don't think it's realistic to take 45 year old truck drivers who become dislocated and retrain them as silicon valley computer programmers.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by pmward » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:21 am

doodle wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:02 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:27 am
In my not so humble opinion, I think labor unions played a big part of moving and/or losing US industry/jobs to offshore countries/companies. Automobiles, aircraft, electronics, electronics customer service, appliances, chemicals, ship building, lumber, etc. I saw it happening first hand in my company throughout my career and was privy to a lot of the reasoning of higher management as the moving of facilities and related employment off shore accelerated. :'(
Sure, I don't doubt that. Unions probably failed to recognize the growing threat from increasingly global supply chains. But what choice did they have? Should workers here have accepted salaries of two dollars an hour to compete with chinese?

Soon, every worker is going to be competing with robots. When goods can be produced with out labor capitalism is going to have to come up with some creative solutions....otherwise, I'm afraid the whole thing is going to crumble. How does one sell products to people that don't have jobs or the means to earning a living? We really need to be realistic about this.
Yep it's a balancing act. Money is always the bottleneck. If people aren't paid a decent living, they cannot contribute to the economy and the economy stagnates. Manufacturing jobs were ripe for disruption in the early 2000s. They were stuck between the proverbial rock and a hard place. There was no realistic solution that protected both pay and jobs. Now we have automation coming in to replace those jobs altogether.

We also have the abomination that is the "gig economy" where people are lining up to be paid less than min wage after expenses (gas, maintenance, wear and tear, etc). These things are like a rock holding wage growth down. And without wage growth, the money doesn't make it into the hands of the people that will actually spend it, and the economy stagnates, new jobs don't come online, and wage growth continue to lag. It's a vicious cycle. I understand the arguments of the "right" on the subject, however they all seem to wrap around some form of a trickledown which somehow never seems to actually happen in practice, or tariffs which by definition are wasteful, counter-productive, and wind up being paid by the consumer anyways.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by pmward » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:39 am

MangoMan wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:34 am
pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:21 am

We also have the abomination that is the "gig economy" where people are lining up to be paid less than min wage after expenses (gas, maintenance, wear and tear, etc). These things are like a rock holding wage growth down.
I'm not sure what your problem with Gig working is. You sound like a Cali politician. If you ask Gig workers, most of them love the arrangement and want the government to stay out of it.
Can you point me to all these gig workers who "love the arrangement"? I mean seriously. I can see some people loving it sure, someone that needs the flexible schedule that a real job does not have. But the "gig economy" is like the modern day version of child labor. The people that own capital in the company make millions on the backs of the poor people that do the actual work for damn near nothing. In a growing economy these kind of less than minimum wage jobs would not exist. It's only because of the wealth gap compounding on itself, the massive disparity between the upper and lower classes, and the lower classes sheer desperation that allows these shit pay jobs to exist.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:45 am

MangoMan wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:32 am
doodle wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:02 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:27 am
In my not so humble opinion, I think labor unions played a big part of moving and/or losing US industry/jobs to offshore countries/companies. Automobiles, aircraft, electronics, electronics customer service, appliances, chemicals, ship building, lumber, etc. I saw it happening first hand in my company throughout my career and was privy to a lot of the reasoning of higher management as the moving of facilities and related employment off shore accelerated. :'(
Sure, I don't doubt that. Unions probably failed to recognize the growing threat from increasingly global supply chains. But what choice did they have? Should workers here have accepted salaries of two dollars an hour to compete with chinese?

Soon, every worker is going to be competing with robots. When goods can be produced with out labor capitalism is going to have to come up with some creative solutions....otherwise, I'm afraid the whole thing is going to crumble. How does one sell products to people that don't have jobs or the means to earning a living? We really need to be realistic about this.
No one is saying they should work for $2/hour. But they also don't need cadillac health plans that extend until death and rich pensions that are bankrupting everyone. There is a balance, and when the unions got greedy, companies moved overseas to be smart.
In a completely free market companies will do whatever they can to lower costs and increase profits...anyone would, it's in their self interest to do so. The larger ramifications of everyone making a logical decision that is best for themselves leads to the tragedy of the commons type issues. If hypothetically we replace foreign workers with automated workers that cost 50 cents an hour to run and never need time off, get sick etc etc then it would be in companies best interests to eliminate humans from their workforce entirely. Great! We can reduce our labor costs to nothing! Ok, makes logical sense...but what are the larger systemic ramifications as every company does this?

Someone said once that money is like manure, it only does any good when you spread it around. The more concentrated wealth becomes the weaker and more precarious capitalism's position becomes. F. Roosevelt was a very wise man in this regard. Had it not been for roosevelt we would have probably had a communist revolution in this country or the rise of a fascist regime. Roosevelt saved capitalism.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:51 am

pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:39 am
MangoMan wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:34 am
pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:21 am

We also have the abomination that is the "gig economy" where people are lining up to be paid less than min wage after expenses (gas, maintenance, wear and tear, etc). These things are like a rock holding wage growth down.
I'm not sure what your problem with Gig working is. You sound like a Cali politician. If you ask Gig workers, most of them love the arrangement and want the government to stay out of it.
Can you point me to all these gig workers who "love the arrangement"? I mean seriously. I can see some people loving it sure, someone that needs the flexible schedule that a real job does not have. But the "gig economy" is like the modern day version of child labor. The people that own capital in the company make millions on the backs of the poor people that do the actual work for damn near nothing. In a growing economy these kind of less than minimum wage jobs would not exist. It's only because of the wealth gap compounding on itself, the massive disparity between the upper and lower classes, and the lower classes sheer desperation that allows these shit pay jobs to exist.
I almost want this narrative to play out. I want these people to witness the effects of trying to push their theories to the breaking point. You think this summer was bad? Let's keep pushing the disparity til 1% owns 90% of country's wealth. Hey, that's freedom!

Ok, we'll see how that plays out. I hope I'm not alive to watch the chaos unfold as everything comes crashing down.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:55 am

Oh, and under that scenario we will eliminate goverent and privatize our legal and judicial system and police and security as Mark, and Tom, and Primal and Tech all advocate for. Wow! Welcome to mad max! Welcome to the thunderdome!
Last edited by doodle on Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:55 am

doodle wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:02 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:27 am
In my not so humble opinion, I think labor unions played a big part of moving and/or losing US industry/jobs to offshore countries/companies. Automobiles, aircraft, electronics, electronics customer service, appliances, chemicals, ship building, lumber, etc. I saw it happening first hand in my company throughout my career and was privy to a lot of the reasoning of higher management as the moving of facilities and related employment off shore accelerated. :'(
Sure, I don't doubt that. Unions probably failed to recognize the growing threat from increasingly global supply chains. But what choice did they have? Should workers here have accepted salaries of two dollars an hour to compete with chinese?

Soon, every worker is going to be competing with robots. When goods can be produced with out labor capitalism is going to have to come up with some creative solutions....otherwise, I'm afraid the whole thing is going to crumble. How does one sell products to people that don't have jobs or the means to earning a living? We really need to be realistic about this.
Slight tangent off this in regards to a minimum wage. Every time wages go up in any fashion they lower the break-even point for automating and eliminating the job entirely.

Vinny
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:57 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:55 am
doodle wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:02 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:27 am
In my not so humble opinion, I think labor unions played a big part of moving and/or losing US industry/jobs to offshore countries/companies. Automobiles, aircraft, electronics, electronics customer service, appliances, chemicals, ship building, lumber, etc. I saw it happening first hand in my company throughout my career and was privy to a lot of the reasoning of higher management as the moving of facilities and related employment off shore accelerated. :'(
Sure, I don't doubt that. Unions probably failed to recognize the growing threat from increasingly global supply chains. But what choice did they have? Should workers here have accepted salaries of two dollars an hour to compete with chinese?

Soon, every worker is going to be competing with robots. When goods can be produced with out labor capitalism is going to have to come up with some creative solutions....otherwise, I'm afraid the whole thing is going to crumble. How does one sell products to people that don't have jobs or the means to earning a living? We really need to be realistic about this.
Slight tangent off this in regards to a minimum wage. Every time wages go up in any fashion they lower the break-even point for automating and eliminating the job entirely.

Vinny
Yes sir, they certainly do. Like I said, we better start getting creative!
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vnatale
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Re: The New Republican Populism (personal Trump references not allowed)

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:57 am

MangoMan wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:32 am
doodle wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 11:02 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Dec 16, 2020 9:27 am
In my not so humble opinion, I think labor unions played a big part of moving and/or losing US industry/jobs to offshore countries/companies. Automobiles, aircraft, electronics, electronics customer service, appliances, chemicals, ship building, lumber, etc. I saw it happening first hand in my company throughout my career and was privy to a lot of the reasoning of higher management as the moving of facilities and related employment off shore accelerated. :'(
Sure, I don't doubt that. Unions probably failed to recognize the growing threat from increasingly global supply chains. But what choice did they have? Should workers here have accepted salaries of two dollars an hour to compete with chinese?

Soon, every worker is going to be competing with robots. When goods can be produced with out labor capitalism is going to have to come up with some creative solutions....otherwise, I'm afraid the whole thing is going to crumble. How does one sell products to people that don't have jobs or the means to earning a living? We really need to be realistic about this.
No one is saying they should work for $2/hour. But they also don't need cadillac health plans that extend until death and rich pensions that are bankrupting everyone. There is a balance, and when the unions got greedy, companies moved overseas to be smart.
What you say definitely also describes all government workers. Unfortunately we cannot send those jobs elsewhere.

VInny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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