I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

pmward
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1731
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:39 pm

I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by pmward » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:28 am

Title says it. I don't think the political stuff belongs here. I think it detracts from the whole point of the forum. I think that if you want political discussion you should create gyroscopicpolitics.com which is completely separate and let this stay as an investing forum. The political drama has poisoned this forum. We have lost tons of members because of it. It has put us all at each others throats and divided us into groups. I don't think the politics belongs here. I think that if politics stay, eventually it will be the death of this forum.
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2970
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:48 am

Seconded.
pmward
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1731
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by pmward » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:54 am

Not to mention, that for those that do want to partake in political discussion, having a separate website branded for politics might attract other people that are interested in politics that don't have an interest in investing. These people currently would never find this forum. Investing and politics do not go together. They are completely separate concerns, imo. Plus, you all would be guaranteed to not have me pushing back at your opinions as I would not go sign up at a separate politics site.
User avatar
l82start
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1262
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:51 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by l82start » Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:57 am

the politics section can be blocked by the user at his own discretion,
i am sorry if taking personal responsibility for you viewing and posting choices is difficult..
but it would not be in keeping with the forums ethos to impose top down government (admin) restrictions on what you can and cant talk about..
Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it

Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
Libertarian666
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:01 am

l82start wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:57 am
the politics section can be blocked by the user at his own discretion,
i am sorry if taking personal responsibility for you viewing and posting choices is difficult..
but it would not be in keeping with the forums ethos to impose top down government (admin) restrictions on what you can and cant talk about..
Personal responsibility is an alien concept to people with TDS.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5941
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:10 am

I definitely dissent.

I originally came here for discussion about the Permanent Portfolio. And, ultimately, that is still my prime motivator for being here.

I view this is as similar to how friendships develop. You initially become friends with someone over some shared interest or activity. Then as the friendship deepens you start to share more interests and discussions with the other person.

I used to go to the Bogle Heads forum but there are just too many people there.

I like being here because it is far smaller and I do get to somewhat know the personalities of many of the participants here.

In theory, we are all here because of some degree of interest in the Permanent Portfolio. Just as in-person conversations do not stay solely on one topic but naturally meander into other topics that is what I see occurring here. Which is quite appealing to me.

Finally, I will say that Xan is a tremendous administrator. On the technical side, he jumps on almost any problem immediately. If any of us has a quirky need or desire he attempts to fulfill it. On the moderator side. I know in which directions he leans. Yet he never lets that affect the way he moderates. He has an extremely light hand regarding moderation and will only step in when absolutely necessary, letting us all be adults and self-policing ourselves. Thanks Xan for how well you do your job.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4599
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by doodle » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:19 am

I actually disagree with some of my comrades, here. Eventually, investing discussions when probed more deeply arrive at philosophy which then naturally filters over into politics. It's really hard to separate them and was one of the reasons I chose this place over bogleheads. Government policy, deficit spending, legislation, all of these have a large impact on investment choices.

I do agree that the political discussions lately have been exceedingly acrimonious. These kind of comments don't help....
Personal responsibility is an alien concept to people with TDS.
I had to walk away...and actually am in the process of cutting wayyyy back because of how toxic this place has become and how little I now have in common with most of the people here. The culture has changed and with that an enormous wealth of diversity of opinion and interesting debate and dialogue has been lost. I learned a lot from discussions and debates here over the last decade, so it's sad for me to watch this decline happen.
User avatar
l82start
Global Moderator
Global Moderator
Posts: 1262
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:51 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by l82start » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:32 am

politics has become all encompassing lately and its sad but we are in strange times... lock-downs, corona, trump being an ass, the specter of tyranny rising, economic and employment hardship, and an election gone wrong...

please be nice and try to avoid the adding to the toxic side of all this...
grown adults can have political and philosophical discussions with out acrimony..
Government 2020+ - a BANANA REPUBLIC - if you can keep it

Belief is the death of intelligence. As soon as one believes a doctrine of any sort, or assumes certitude, one stops thinking about that aspect of existence
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5941
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:35 am

l82start wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:32 am
politics has become all encompassing lately and its sad but we are in strange times... lock-downs, corona, trump being an ass, the specter of tyranny rising, economic and employment hardship, and an election gone wrong...

please be nice and try to avoid the adding to the toxic side of all this...
grown adults can have political and philosophical discussions with out acrimony..
Agree. However, difficult to carry out in practice.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
pmward
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1731
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by pmward » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:40 am

l82start wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:57 am
the politics section can be blocked by the user at his own discretion,
i am sorry if taking personal responsibility for you viewing and posting choices is difficult..
but it would not be in keeping with the forums ethos to impose top down government (admin) restrictions on what you can and cant talk about..
I'm not saying you need to moderate the discussions that happen here naturally. But I don't think trying to mix an investing forum and a political forum together is working. I think it would be better if the politics separated from the union, and created their own completely separate space. Then both investing discussion and politics discussion could each grow and thrive on their own. This current blend is just toxic. To many people coming here for "investing" the politics is a big turnoff. It's clear your heart lies in the politics side of things, you almost never comment on investing related stuff. You would get much better political discussion on a forum that is targeted to politics.
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 806
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by SomeDude » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:40 am

I think Ad O or someone said "we're at peak politics right now". After Jan 20th, hopefully it simmers down.

This ride is far from over though. It's going to get really wild and discussion will probably get heated as these are much more emotional topics than stocks or GLD vs. Gold coins.

Maybe everyone who doesn't want to participate in political discussion should bow out and the moderators can just ensure it doesn't spill over into the investment talk?

It's probably better to have this political section so the other topics don't get political. People who want to talk politics can do it here and not there.
pmward
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1731
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by pmward » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:42 am

Harry Browne had separate radio shows for investing and politics for a reason.
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 806
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by SomeDude » Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:58 am

pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:42 am
Harry Browne had separate radio shows for investing and politics for a reason.
And the permanent portfolio philosophy is independent of the political situation. But.....surely how this turns out will affect (at least in the short-term), investment prices.

Maybe it's best to keep politics out of the other sections? If you guys close this section, I predict it will spill up there.
mukramesh
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:27 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by mukramesh » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:06 am

pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:28 am
The political drama has poisoned this forum. We have lost tons of members because of it. It has put us all at each others throats and divided us into groups. I don't think the politics belongs here. I think that if politics stay, eventually it will be the death of this forum.
Absolutely.
Libertarian666
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:07 am

mukramesh wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:06 am
pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:28 am
The political drama has poisoned this forum. We have lost tons of members because of it. It has put us all at each others throats and divided us into groups. I don't think the politics belongs here. I think that if politics stay, eventually it will be the death of this forum.
Absolutely.
No one is forcing anyone to read this sub-forum.
Libertarian666
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:08 am

SomeDude wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:58 am
pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:42 am
Harry Browne had separate radio shows for investing and politics for a reason.
And the permanent portfolio philosophy is independent of the political situation. But.....surely how this turns out will affect (at least in the short-term), investment prices.

Maybe it's best to keep politics out of the other sections? If you guys close this section, I predict it will spill up there.
Right, or we could turn into another knuckleheads forum, which would be extremely boring.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5941
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:08 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:07 am
mukramesh wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:06 am
pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:28 am
The political drama has poisoned this forum. We have lost tons of members because of it. It has put us all at each others throats and divided us into groups. I don't think the politics belongs here. I think that if politics stay, eventually it will be the death of this forum.
Absolutely.
No one is forcing anyone to read this sub-forum.
Agree.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
pmward
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1731
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by pmward » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:10 am

SomeDude wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:58 am
pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 9:42 am
Harry Browne had separate radio shows for investing and politics for a reason.
And the permanent portfolio philosophy is independent of the political situation. But.....surely how this turns out will affect (at least in the short-term), investment prices.
Like I said, they don't have to moderate and disallow political topics when there is this overlap. But I don't think shoe horning a political forum into an investment forum is working. You're very new here. Many people have already stopped coming here because they wanted an alternate investment forum and this turned into a political forum. There are quite a few considering leaving right now because of it. I don't think trying to combine both politics and investments into one forum does either topic justice.
User avatar
Hal
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 912
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 1:50 am

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by Hal » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:17 am

Personally, I think this Politics section should stay. I barely follow US politics, and rarely look on this section. However I would imagine, perhaps naively, that if forum members are not interested they would not visit this area.

Those that are so inclined can have a section as long as there is courtesy.
Maybe I have said too much, so I will keep my mouth shut :-X
Aussie GoldSmithPP - 25% PMGOLD, 75% VDCO
User avatar
Cortopassi
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2970
Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:28 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:21 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:07 am
mukramesh wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:06 am
pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:28 am
The political drama has poisoned this forum. We have lost tons of members because of it. It has put us all at each others throats and divided us into groups. I don't think the politics belongs here. I think that if politics stay, eventually it will be the death of this forum.
Absolutely.
No one is forcing anyone to read this sub-forum.
And...you can put people on ignore... :P
pmward
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1731
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by pmward » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:25 am

Hal wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:17 am
Personally, I think this Politics section should stay. I barely follow US politics, and rarely look on this section. However I would imagine, perhaps naively, that if forum members are not interested they would not visit this area.

Those that are so inclined can have a section as long as there is courtesy.
Maybe I have said too much, so I will keep my mouth shut :-X
Unfortunately the separate sub section is not enough for "courtesy". Those of us that came here for an investment forum that have watched it devolve into an alt-right political forum are not exactly thrilled. We don't want to leave and find a new investment home. But we also are very turned off by the alt-right political slant that has been allowed to breed to the point that it is suffocating. This may be a fine "courteous" place for an alt-right investor to come... but this place is pretty hostile to anyone who is not alt-right. This place has even become hostile to moderates/centrists, or even people that lean "right" but do not like Trump. It's just not a healthy environment for an investment forum, and ultimately makes the PP look bad.
Last edited by pmward on Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5941
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:26 am

Hal wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:17 am
Personally, I think this Politics section should stay. I barely follow US politics, and rarely look on this section. However I would imagine, perhaps naively, that if forum members are not interested they would not visit this area.

Those that are so inclined can have a section as long as there is courtesy.
Maybe I have said too much, so I will keep my mouth shut :-X
You said it all quite well.....

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
mukramesh
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:27 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by mukramesh » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:27 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:21 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:07 am
mukramesh wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:06 am
pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:28 am
The political drama has poisoned this forum. We have lost tons of members because of it. It has put us all at each others throats and divided us into groups. I don't think the politics belongs here. I think that if politics stay, eventually it will be the death of this forum.
Absolutely.
No one is forcing anyone to read this sub-forum.
And...you can put people on ignore... :P
I get that :)

But I still agree with pmward that the forum has been somewhat ruined in the past 5 years or so (like much of the internet, social media, etc.) by endless political bickering.

Harry Browne's "How to Find Freedom in an Unfree World" was about taking back personal responsibility in spite of all things trying to limit our freedoms (not just government.) The political discussions on this forum do not follow this spirit.
mukramesh
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 163
Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2014 3:27 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by mukramesh » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:32 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:30 am
mukramesh wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:27 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:21 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:07 am
mukramesh wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:06 am
pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 8:28 am
The political drama has poisoned this forum. We have lost tons of members because of it. It has put us all at each others throats and divided us into groups. I don't think the politics belongs here. I think that if politics stay, eventually it will be the death of this forum.
Absolutely.
No one is forcing anyone to read this sub-forum.
And...you can put people on ignore... :P
I get that :)

But I still agree with pmward that the forum has been somewhat ruined in the past 5 years or so (like much of the internet, social media, etc.) by endless political bickering.

Harry Browne's "How to Find Freedom in an Unfree World" was about taking back personal responsibility in spite of all things trying to limit our freedoms (not just government.) The political discussions on this forum do not follow this spirit.
1. I don't agree that the forum has been ruined.
2. What has caused the acrimony is that some of the members are attacking and insulting other members for supporting the President.
3. HB was talking about a relatively free society, not Cuba or Venezuela. If he were alive today, he would be all-in for Trump when considering the alternative of an election stolen by communists.
Wow dude... WOOOSH
pmward
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1731
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2019 4:39 pm

Re: I Think This Forum Should Stick To Investing

Post by pmward » Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:34 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:30 am
1. I don't agree that the forum has been ruined.
2. What has caused the acrimony is that some of the members are attacking and insulting other members for supporting the President.
3. HB was talking about a relatively free society, not Cuba or Venezuela. If he were alive today, he would be all-in for Trump when considering the alternative of an election stolen by communists.
This quote above from Tech is a perfect example of what I was saying in the quote linked below. This forum is hostile to anyone that is not alt-right.
pmward wrote:
Wed Dec 02, 2020 10:25 am

Unfortunately the separate sub section is not enough for "courtesy". Those of us that came here for an investment forum that have watched it devolve into an alt-right political forum are not exactly thrilled. We don't want to leave and find a new investment home. But we also are very turned off by the alt-right political slant that has been allowed to breed to the point that it is suffocating. This may be a fine "courteous" place for an alt-right investor to come... but this place is pretty hostile to anyone who is not alt-right. This place has even become hostile to moderates/centrists, or even people that lean "right" but do not like Trump. It's just not a healthy environment for an investment forum, and ultimately makes the PP look bad.
Post Reply