Libertarians and property

User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by doodle » Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:54 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:04 pm
Why post hypotheticals?

Private arbitration and private security are both common and widespread and have a high trust value. Today.

Look at the record.
Yes but they are layered on top of a publically accountable government that holds monopoly on force. You can't just remove the foundation from a house and expect the floors and windows to still stay level.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by doodle » Fri Dec 04, 2020 9:55 pm

You can't remove a key feature of a system and expect everything else to remain the same.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by doodle » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:00 pm

I don't understand how what you're proposing is any different from the arbitration that was attempted prior to world war 2 with Hitler....except instead of the conflict playing out between nations on an international stage, it would take place between individuals or smaller groups and their private warring security forces. It seems like you just want to subdivide the united states into 300 million sovereign nations.
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:18 pm

I’m proposing a system that is active and working today.

Businesses call Brinks when they want to move cash.

Private Arbitration is the gold standard for justice.

These systems are the default for serious business especially in corrupt countries. Not just the US.

There is history throughout the world in every scenario you can speculate. No need to foment concern.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by doodle » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:30 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:18 pm
I’m proposing a system that is active and working today.

Businesses call Brinks when they want to move cash.

Private Arbitration is the gold standard for justice.

These systems are the default for serious business especially in corrupt countries. Not just the US.

There is history throughout the world in every scenario you can speculate. No need to foment concern.
Those are nice...arbitration is great but somewhere along the line there must be enforcement. You are saying you would prefer that enforcement come at the hands of some private entity rather than a publically accountable government?
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:38 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:30 pm
Mark Leavy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:18 pm
I’m proposing a system that is active and working today.

Businesses call Brinks when they want to move cash.

Private Arbitration is the gold standard for justice.

These systems are the default for serious business especially in corrupt countries. Not just the US.

There is history throughout the world in every scenario you can speculate. No need to foment concern.
Those are nice...arbitration is great but somewhere along the line there must be enforcement. You are saying you would prefer that enforcement come at the hands of some private entity rather than a publically accountable government?
Private enterprises are publicly accountable. Have you not heard of Tiffanay’s or Yelp or Brinks or Loomis?
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:50 pm

I was in Laos one time talking to a gal lamenting capitalism.

She was on her way to the black market to exchange some dollars.

She was cute and young so I didn’t point out the obvious.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by doodle » Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:55 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:38 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:30 pm
Mark Leavy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:18 pm
I’m proposing a system that is active and working today.

Businesses call Brinks when they want to move cash.

Private Arbitration is the gold standard for justice.

These systems are the default for serious business especially in corrupt countries. Not just the US.

There is history throughout the world in every scenario you can speculate. No need to foment concern.
Those are nice...arbitration is great but somewhere along the line there must be enforcement. You are saying you would prefer that enforcement come at the hands of some private entity rather than a publically accountable government?
Private enterprises are publicly accountable. Have you not heard of Tiffanay’s or Yelp or Brinks or Loomis?
Yelp? That is going to be your enforcement mechanism to keep everyone in line?

If I can create my own private title company and print me up a title to your land and then enforce that title with my own private title security force I'm not really sure how Yelp is going to help.

Brinks and Loomis transport money. They don't have their own legal systems with courts and judges and jails...is that what youre proposing? I break into a brinks truck and steal money. How is that adjudicated? Does Brinks get to do with me what they please if they catch me?
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:00 pm

doodle wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:55 pm
I break into a brinks truck and steal money. How is that adjudicated? Does Brinks get to do with me what they please if they catch me?
You’re a funny man, doodle. I suggest you try it.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by doodle » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:09 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:00 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:55 pm
I break into a brinks truck and steal money. How is that adjudicated? Does Brinks get to do with me what they please if they catch me?
You’re a funny man, doodle. I suggest you try it.
So they knock on my door and say, we think you may have our money. And I say I don't. What comes next for me? This is getting exciting!
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by doodle » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:10 pm

Do they give me a bad review on Yelp?
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:47 pm

Doodle, you are clearly a man of intellect and provenance.

I think Madagascar is ripe for plundering. The government is corrupt. Nothing but private security protecting private property.

You're my man. I'll back you ten cents on the dollar. Bring home the bacon!

Mark
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by Mark Leavy » Sat Dec 05, 2020 12:21 am

doodle wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:09 pm
Mark Leavy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:00 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 10:55 pm
I break into a brinks truck and steal money. How is that adjudicated? Does Brinks get to do with me what they please if they catch me?
You’re a funny man, doodle. I suggest you try it.
So they knock on my door and say, we think you may have our money. And I say I don't. What comes next for me? This is getting exciting!
You skipped the part where you take their money. That's the fun part of the story.
glennds
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1265
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:24 am

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by glennds » Sat Dec 05, 2020 4:45 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 11:47 pm
Doodle, you are clearly a man of intellect and provenance.

I think Madagascar is ripe for plundering. The government is corrupt. Nothing but private security protecting private property.

You're my man. I'll back you ten cents on the dollar. Bring home the bacon!

Mark
Or at least bring home some vanilla. Vanilla prices have skyrocketed in recent years. Might have been a better physical asset than gold in the PP. Madagascar leads the world in vanilla production.
Libertarian666
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:03 am

PrimalToker wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:38 pm
doodle wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:13 pm
Can one of the hardcore libertarians explain to me simply how ownership and enforcement of property rights would exist in a system absent a single arbiter who held a monopoly on the use of force?
There is always a single arbiter. Each party consents to the arbiter instead of being forced by the government monopoly. Imagine each county having more than one legal system, you belong to one group, and they provide you with the services. If there is a dispute from another group, they wouldn't use your judge because that's biased, you wouldn't use their judge because that's biased. Therefore both parties would have to pick a third group that has no interest in either party, their only interest is maintaining their integrity with the market by being neutral. If the third party failed to be neutral and just, people would leave that group and join another one.

You'd have market judges and jury's, not government judges and jury's. The free market holds the monopoly of force.
Excellent explanation!
Libertarian666
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:23 am

By the way, this is probably the best thread ever, in this section at least.
Thanks!
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by doodle » Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:07 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 7:12 am
Tortoise wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:57 pm
PrimalToker wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2020 7:38 pm
There is always a single arbiter. Each party consents to the arbiter instead of being forced by the government monopoly.
To play devil's advocate, isn't that effectively what we currently have?

Granted, we are all born in a country (government) that we didn't voluntarily choose. But thereafter, if the country allows us to emigrate to another country, we can eventually do so.

Isn't that sort of like voluntarily choosing an arbiter (government)? There aren't an infinite number of choices of arbiter, but there is a choice, right?

I'm not necessarily taking a hard position here. Just asking questions and engaging in discussion.
Practical objections:

What if they don't allow you to emigrate?
What if there's no other country that will allow you to immigrate?
And even if you can do it, why should you have to take such drastic action? You can switch cellphone providers without having to move to a different "cellphone jurisdiction". Why should this not be true of possibly the most important service you could ever buy?

Fundamental objection:

If you believe in "consent of the governed", then the governed should be free to consent or not to consent. Actual consent is what this method accomplishes, in stark contrast to the fraudulent notion that a person's voting means that he is giving consent to be governed, which was demolished by Lysander Spooner over 100 years ago: https://jim.com/treason.htm.
Can I withdraw my consent at anytime? Or once I initially consent that decision then becomes permanent?
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by doodle » Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:17 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:47 am

If one of us then decides to "unsign" that agreement for some reason, that person would still be obligated to submit to arbitration for that contract.
..or what? Who wields the stick?

I mean if all laws are social contracts in essence and I choose not to abide by them what are the repercussions and who enforces those repercussions?

I gotta head out for some activity, I have some questions for you too Tom but my shrink recommends that I get some of my pent up energy out and my dog agrees.
Libertarian666
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 5994
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 6:00 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by Libertarian666 » Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:33 am

doodle wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:17 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:47 am

If one of us then decides to "unsign" that agreement for some reason, that person would still be obligated to submit to arbitration for that contract.
..or what? Who wields the stick?

I mean if all laws are social contracts in essence and I choose not to abide by them what are the repercussions and who enforces those repercussions?

I gotta head out for some activity, I have some questions for you too Tom but my shrink recommends that I get some of my pent up energy out and my dog agrees.
If there is public visibility for contractual disputes, as I'm envisioning with a society functioning by reference to the General Agreement to Arbitration, people who violate their contracts will be shunned by honest people, who can identify one another as being signatories.

Most people with an IQ above room temperature will quickly figure out what that would mean.
SomeDude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1080
Joined: Sun Nov 22, 2020 1:45 am

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by SomeDude » Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:36 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:33 am
Most people with an IQ above room temperature will quickly figure out what that would mean.
Some like it hotter than others.

Seriously, getting rid of government for arbitration will make it much cheaper and reduce liability for business by eliminating frivolous lawsuits and worthless regs that are not market driven.
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by doodle » Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:40 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:00 pm
SomeDude wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:36 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:33 am
Most people with an IQ above room temperature will quickly figure out what that would mean.
Some like it hotter than others.

Seriously, getting rid of government for arbitration will make it much cheaper and reduce liability for business by eliminating frivolous lawsuits and worthless regs that are not market driven.
Right, but even more important, it demonstrates that one major justification for government, namely that it is necessary for dispute resolution, is fraudulent.
Ok, but we are skirting around the issue here of enforcement. it's wonderful to imagine this beautiful rational world where everything runs like a Swiss clock...but the world is a messy place and force sometimes is the only way to compel action. How are you going to enforce laws?

Let's say I break a traffic law. You want to charge me with recklessly running a red light and killing your child. I say the child ran out into street and I didn't run the light. I don't agree to submit to arbitration because I'm innocent. Whats the repercussion? A bad Yelp review?
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by doodle » Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:46 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:22 am
doodle wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:40 am

Let's say I break a traffic law. You want to charge me with recklessly running a red light and killing your child. I say the child ran out into street and I didn't run the light. I don't agree to submit to arbitration because I'm innocent. Whats the repercussion? A bad Yelp review?
You downplay it as. ‘Bad Yelp review” but historically this meant you’d die alone, hungry as the tribe abandoned you.

How will a person who murdered a child and refused to take any kind of responsibility play out in society?

Will you hire this person to do work for you? You just fired the president for having an abrasive personality, in spite of doing a pretty good job. Would you continue using an accountant or dentist who murdered a child and then denied assuming any kind of responsibility in the form of an impartial inquiry?

Would you date a person like that?

If you owned a grocery store, would you sell them food?

Perhaps if you were the father of the dead kid, would you perhaps round up a bunch of your friends/family and drag this person out of bed in the middle of the night and hang them from a tree in the form of vigilante mob justice?

In your example, the person is guilty, that’s why they refuse any kind of inquiry/arbitration, so you can’t tell me you feel bad about mob justice against a guilty child murderer?

And if you say mob justice is horrible, can you tell me that in the current system of rules of laws with a single arbiter of force in the form of government, that when government fails to provide justice, that mob justice doesn’t sometimes happen?

Perhaps the fear of mob justice in a libertarian society would encourage people to submit to the third party arbitration. And if you don’t want to live in a city where mob justice may exist, then you can always leave for whatever socialist utopia’s exist elsewhere. The whole point of the libertarian society is that you agree to the basic concepts laid out and if you don’t like them, you can leave and we won’t stop you.
Mob justice? That's your answer on how to create a more just and enlightened society? Sounds lovely. I think we have reached the point of absurdity.

Your libertarian land works nice when everyone plays by the rules...but that isn't the world we live in. Sooner or later you are going to have physically enforce things...I'll take a constitutionally bound publically accountable government where I at least have some rights before I go with mob justice.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by vnatale » Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:10 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 5:43 pm
doodle wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 4:46 pm

Mob justice? That's your answer on how to create a more just and enlightened society? Sounds lovely. I think we have reached the point of absurdity.

Your libertarian land works nice when everyone plays by the rules...but that isn't the world we live in. Sooner or later you are going to have physically enforce things...I'll take a constitutionally bound publically accountable government where I at least have some rights before I go with mob justice.


316350A3-32AF-47FA-8865-00DB453A9DDC.png



Trivia time!

In the photo above, guess which city in a constitutionally bound publicly accountable government resorted to mob justice by looting and arson this year?

Should be easy, because mob justice is rare in a “just and enlightened society”
There are 365 days in a year. How many communities are there in our country? Let's say 50,000 communities.

Let's do big-time rounding...and say that we, therefore, have about 20,000,000 community-days per year.

For all those community-days in a year how many of them could you produce such a picture as occurring one of those days. This year has certainly been an outlier for them but how many could you come up with? Could you ever come up with a 1,000 such community-days this year? Are there some years with absolutely none? If even a 1,000 that would be about .05% of ALL the community-days in a year?

You are entertaining but the gross exaggerations are not persuasive.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
doodle
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4658
Joined: Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:17 pm

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by doodle » Sun Dec 06, 2020 6:59 pm

tomfoolery wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 11:22 am
doodle wrote:
Sun Dec 06, 2020 10:40 am

Let's say I break a traffic law. You want to charge me with recklessly running a red light and killing your child. I say the child ran out into street and I didn't run the light. I don't agree to submit to arbitration because I'm innocent. Whats the repercussion? A bad Yelp review?
You downplay it as. ‘Bad Yelp review” but historically this meant you’d die alone, hungry as the tribe abandoned you.

How will a person who murdered a child and refused to take any kind of responsibility play out in society?

Will you hire this person to do work for you? You just fired the president for having an abrasive personality, in spite of doing a pretty good job. Would you continue using an accountant or dentist who murdered a child and then denied assuming any kind of responsibility in the form of an impartial inquiry?

Would you date a person like that?

If you owned a grocery store, would you sell them food?

How would anyone know? Would there be a centralized database where I can dig into everyone's reviews? Does the vigilante mob hold them down and tattoo baby killer on their forehead? Sounds kind of oppressive to me....especially since none of these reviews will be vetted since there is no need for adjudication to declare guilt apparently when we have a mob that is able to undertake all those decisions.

I think it would be better for libertarians to concentrate on realistic measures to increase liberty in our society rather than pie in the sky ideas about eliminating governments and turning everything over to the free market. Maybe one day when our lizard brains have withered and we all possess the rationality of spock we can move in that direction. Until then, I think it's best to focus efforts on making our governments as effective and efficient as possible.
User avatar
moda0306
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7680
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Libertarians and property

Post by moda0306 » Mon Dec 07, 2020 9:51 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:33 am
doodle wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 11:17 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Sat Dec 05, 2020 9:47 am

If one of us then decides to "unsign" that agreement for some reason, that person would still be obligated to submit to arbitration for that contract.
..or what? Who wields the stick?

I mean if all laws are social contracts in essence and I choose not to abide by them what are the repercussions and who enforces those repercussions?

I gotta head out for some activity, I have some questions for you too Tom but my shrink recommends that I get some of my pent up energy out and my dog agrees.
If there is public visibility for contractual disputes, as I'm envisioning with a society functioning by reference to the General Agreement to Arbitration, people who violate their contracts will be shunned by honest people, who can identify one another as being signatories.

Most people with an IQ above room temperature will quickly figure out what that would mean.
Funny, cuz if that's true, than the vast majority of Americans would identify as anarcho-capitalist, or have strong leanings towards that philosophy.

But they don't...
Post Reply