Libertarians of Reddit

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doodle
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by doodle » Mon Dec 14, 2020 4:19 pm

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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by Tortoise » Mon Dec 14, 2020 5:06 pm

Very interesting. Vinny, Tom, and Doodle all have similar libertarian-leaning scores. The spread between them is mainly along the left/right axis.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by jalanlong » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:32 pm

I am inline with Tom
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by vnatale » Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:49 pm

Maintaining that fairly narrow range of:

4.21 to 2.92

!!!!!!!!!!!!!


That MUST be the commonality that brought us all here!

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by Mark Leavy » Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:37 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:49 pm
Maintaining that fairly narrow range of:
4.21 to 2.92
That MUST be the commonality that brought us all here!
That can't be inferred without seeing the wider population distribution.
(Extra Vinnyness elided for clarity)
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by vnatale » Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:12 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:37 pm
vnatale wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:49 pm
Maintaining that fairly narrow range of:
4.21 to 2.92
That MUST be the commonality that brought us all here!
That can't be inferred without seeing the wider population distribution.
(Extra Vinnyness elided for clarity)
Of course! So I invite you and all else to also show us the results of answering the questions. I'm fairly certain it took me less than 5 minutes to answer the questions.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by Maddy » Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:24 am

Could anybody venture to explain what a "left-leaning libertarian" is? The term made sense decades ago, when the term "liberal" meant that you cared about things like individual liberties, but today? Today's "left," as evidenced most immediately by the ideology of the left-leaning posters here, is fundamentally and irreconcilably at odds with nearly every value traditionally associated with libertarianism. When the realization of your ideal world necessarily involves forcing others, through the coercive tools of government, to think and behave as you think they should, how can you describe yourself as even remotely "libertarian?"

Here's my take on this: By claiming to be a "left-leaning libertarian," collectivists--bent on breaking down every remaining cultural, social, linguistic, and moral edifice upon which this country was built--now seek to co-opt and confuse even the labels by which libertarians identify themselves. Erode and bastardize the concept of libertarianism, and you effectively exile the libertarians to a political "no man's land" where you can relabel them as sociopathic misfits.

There's a reason why so many leftist academics flock to the study of linguistics.

I'm still looking for a good explanation for why a number of posters here who identify as "left leaning," and who consistently show nothing but vitriol and disgust toward the libertarian members of this fundamentally libertarian forum, continue to come here--and for what purpose they came here to begin with. I'm not all that well versed with internet slang, but isn't this the definition of the term "troll?"
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:45 am

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DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by SomeDude » Tue Dec 15, 2020 6:47 am

Maddy wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:24 am
Could anybody venture to explain what a "left-leaning libertarian" is..................... I'm not all that well versed with internet slang, but isn't this the definition of the term "troll?"
I always enjoy your posts Maddy. Spot on as usual.

I took this test and it came libertarian far right, a little northeast of TomFool.

The premises you had to accept by selecting most any of the answers though pretty much fly in the face of the belief in liberty. Like the one about a global economy, should it serve multinational corporations or the great unwashed masses. Uhhhhh......every "economy" is the personal economy of the individual. Anything that subverts the individual from using his own economy to serve himself and instead to serve someone else.....is anti liberty.

Left leaning libertarian is like smearing a little poop on a ham sandwich and calling it a ham & poo sammy. Nope.....its now a poop sandwich.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by doodle » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:04 am


Could anybody venture to explain what a "left-leaning libertarian" is..................... I'm not all that well versed with internet slang, but isn't this the definition of the term "troll?"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism



Noam Chomsky is probably best example today (I do not like Chomsky though...mainly because of his behavior during a discussion with Sam Harris). George Orwell gets quoted here frequently....he's another example of a left libertarian

"Orwell wrote in Homage to Catalonia: “I have no particular love for the idealized ‘worker’ as he appears in the bourgeois Communist’s mind, but when I see an actual flesh-and-blood worker in conflict with his natural enemy, the policeman, I do not have to ask myself which side I am on”. (4)

After his experiences on the Iberian peninsula he became distrustful of any anti-fascist struggle that was not also a revolutionary struggle against capitalism.

He wrote in a letter: “After what I have seen in Spain I have come to the conclusion that it is futile to be ‘anti-Fascist’ while attempting to preserve capitalism. Fascism after all is only a development of capitalism, and the mildest democracy, so-called, is liable to turn into Fascism when the pinch comes…

“If one collaborates with a capitalist-imperialist government in a struggle ‘against Fascism’, ie. against a rival imperialism, one is simply letting Fascism in by the back door”. (5)
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by doodle » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:10 am

It's not about eliminating private enterprise however....here is an example of a tweak to capitalism that left libertarians would support.
Codetermination in Germany is a concept that involves the right of workers to participate in management of the companies they work for.[1] Known as Mitbestimmung, the modern law on codetermination is found principally in the Mitbestimmungsgesetz of 1976. The law allows workers to elect representatives (usually trade union representatives) for almost half of the supervisory board of directors. The legislation is separate from the main German company law Act for public companies, the Aktiengesetz. It applies to public and private companies, so long as there are over 2,000 employees. For companies with 500–2,000 employees, one third of the supervisory board must be elected.

There is also legislation in Germany, known as the Betriebsverfassungsgesetz,[2] whereby workers are entitled to form Works Councils at local shop floor level.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by doodle » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:14 am

From the American tradition left libertarianism was also well known. Take Thomas Paine for example. Maybe read his arguments in Agrarian Justice...it's a short 30 pages
Agrarian Justice is the title of a pamphlet written by Thomas Paine and published in 1797, which proposed that those who possess cultivated land owe the community a ground rent, which justifies an estate tax to fund universal old-age and disability pensions and a fixed sum to be paid to all citizens upon reaching maturity.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:20 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:12 am
Mark Leavy wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 10:37 pm
vnatale wrote:
Mon Dec 14, 2020 8:49 pm
Maintaining that fairly narrow range of:
4.21 to 2.92
That MUST be the commonality that brought us all here!
That can't be inferred without seeing the wider population distribution.
(Extra Vinnyness elided for clarity)
Of course! So I invite you and all else to also show us the results of answering the questions. I'm fairly certain it took me less than 5 minutes to answer the questions.

Vinny
I mean, you need to know the distribution of all the test takers to understand what the clustering of the pp group means.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by glennds » Tue Dec 15, 2020 8:32 am

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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by doodle » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:01 am

I'm not an expert on the strains of libertarianism or its underlying psychology but I would venture to guess that openness and acceptance would be a key trait that the left and libertarianism share.

What I feel from this board is a strong conservative bent and a lack of openness. Everyone here has been very successful under our present system. It's worked for them so why change anything? In fact, the biggest headache in most of your lives has probably been the government either through taxation or regulation...so naturally a distaste for that is a common theme here. It is natural for humans to want to promote a setup that it most beneficial for themselves and that is what I see happening here. You have theories that if we just eliminated government and turned everything over to privately led 'authoritarian' corporations that the world would blossom into this capitalist utopia. I don't believe in that narrative...and for that matter neither did most of the icons the right holds up..like Adam Smith. From my perspective it has led to a system of ever widening wealth disparity and created social disjunctions that threaten to bring everything crumbing down.


http://pratclif.com/adamsmith/Betrayal.htm

It is ironic that corporate libertarians regularly pay homage to Adam Smith as their intellectual patron saint, since it is obvious to even the most casual reader of his epic work The Wealth of Nations that Smith would have vigorously opposed most of their claims and policy positions. For example, corporate libertarians fervently oppose any restraint on corporate size or power. Smith, on the other hand, opposed any form of economic concentration on the ground that it distorts the market's natural ability to establish a price that provides a fair return on land, labor, and capital; to produce a satisfactory outcome for both buyers and sellers; and to optimally allocate society's resources.

Through trade agreements, corporate libertarians press governments to provide absolute protection for the intellectual property rights of corporations. Smith was strongly opposed to trade secrets as contrary to market principles and would have vigorously opposed governments enforcing a person or corporation's claim to the right to monopolize a lifesaving drug or device and to charge whatever the market would bear.

Corporate libertarians maintain that the market turns unrestrained greed into socially optimal outcomes. Smith would be outraged by those who attribute this idea to him. He was talking about small farmers and artisans trying to get the best price for their products to provide for themselves and their families. That is self-interest, not greed. Greed is a high-paid corporate executive firing 10,000 employees and then rewarding himself with a multimillion-dollar bonus for having saved the company so much money. Greed is what the economic system being constructed by the corporate libertarians encourages and rewards. [See An Economic System Dangerously Out of Control .]

Smith strongly disliked both governments and corporations. He viewed government primarily as an instrument for extracting taxes to subsidize elites and intervening in the market to protect corporate monopolies. In his words, "Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor,



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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by pmward » Tue Dec 15, 2020 9:58 am

Right. Like none of the "left" views you see from us here are "progressive" or "democratic socialist" or whatever. I think we seem "left" only in the context of the norm of this board. But in actuality Me, doodle, Vinny, glennds, Corto, etc are all more moderate than anything. My views piss far left "progressives" off just as much as they piss the far right off.

I think a "left libertarian" at least as it is defined on that graph is someone who does believe in capitalism and free markets. We don't want to kill capitalism, we don't want to go full on socialism. But we also are not looking to go back to the past. We are looking to move forward. We also value the whole, and believe that the chain is only as strong as its weakest link, so we want to find ways to help strengthen those weak links. We value equality and acceptance of all. We believe globalism is inevitable, and in the end the best for all as mutual economic dependence is the best guarantor of peace. We care about the environment and believe that it is in our best interest to take care of our planet for future generations. We want a world that truly is an equal slate for all. So we are willing to move forward and break the conventions of the past and build a better future, while at the same time maintaining free markets.

Really, I think I personally see forward movement as inevitable. The past is gone. So why fight it? Since both liberalism and conservatism are moving targets, conservatives always lose eventually. Liberals always win eventually. Todays conservatism is yesterdays liberalism, and todays liberalism is tomorrows conservatism. These things are inevitable.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by ahhrunforthehills » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:50 am

Image

Not really surprising since I think everyone here is either a crazy liberal or conservative nut-job :P

I shudder at the idea of being stranded on an island with either.
Really, I think I personally see forward movement as inevitable. The past is gone. So why fight it? Since both liberalism and conservatism are moving targets, conservatives always lose eventually. Liberals always win eventually. Todays conservatism is yesterdays liberalism, and todays liberalism is tomorrows conservatism. These things are inevitable.
History indicates that it is more of a cycle than a straight line. Liberal society builds up-and-up until it violently crashes down. There are studies that reflect this. A liberal society is SUPPOSED to have everyone contributing maximum effort, then the sum of the effort is distributed equally in a fair manner. This is doomed to failure because obviously the most productive get sick of pulling dead weight. At a certain point, the Professor and the Skipper get sick of working twice as hard for Mrs. Howell and Ginger.

When the Professor and Skipper finally say screw it and move to a different island (every island WANTS the Professor, Skipper.. but NONE want Ginger) the rest of the island is now screwed. They have all become dependent on the Professor and Skipper for their survival. They now experience a sudden, harsh, and incredibly painful collapse of their society... cannibalism is optional.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by pmward » Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:59 am

ahhrunforthehills wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:50 am
Really, I think I personally see forward movement as inevitable. The past is gone. So why fight it? Since both liberalism and conservatism are moving targets, conservatives always lose eventually. Liberals always win eventually. Todays conservatism is yesterdays liberalism, and todays liberalism is tomorrows conservatism. These things are inevitable.
History indicates that it is more of a cycle than a straight line. Liberal society builds up-and-up until it violently crashes down. There are studies that reflect this. A liberal society is SUPPOSED to have everyone contributing maximum effort, then the sum of the effort is distributed equally in a fair manner. This is doomed to failure because obviously the most productive get sick of pulling dead weight. At a certain point, the Professor and the Skipper get sick of working twice as hard for Mrs. Howell and Ginger.

When the Professor and Skipper finally say screw it and move to a different island (every island WANTS the Professor, Skipper.. but NONE want Ginger) the rest of the island is now screwed. They have all become dependent on the Professor and Skipper for their survival. They now experience a sudden, harsh, and incredibly painful collapse of their society... cannibalism is optional.
Sure there is a cyclical component to it. Whether your exact interpretation and reasons behind the cycle is true or not could be debated. But even with the cyclical nature the trend still inevitably goes forward over time. For instance, the last time we were in the populist divide part of the cycle was the 1930s. We have come a long way since the 1930s. So we progress, eventually excesses and malinvestment appear, eventually those excesses and malinvestments collapse, and then we pick up the pieces and start to progress again. Ray Dalio's work is really interesting in mapping out and examining these cycles throughout both history and different locales.

Just because I say it's an inevitable trend forward does not mean I'm saying it goes in a straight line. It's an iterative process that will continue until the end of time and there's nothing anybody can do to stop it. There are very few things guaranteed in life, but change is one of them.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by glennds » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:04 am

Maddy wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 5:24 am
Could anybody venture to explain what a "left-leaning libertarian" is? The term made sense decades ago, when the term "liberal" meant that you cared about things like individual liberties, but today? Today's "left," as evidenced most immediately by the ideology of the left-leaning posters here, is fundamentally and irreconcilably at odds with nearly every value traditionally associated with libertarianism. When the realization of your ideal world necessarily involves forcing others, through the coercive tools of government, to think and behave as you think they should, how can you describe yourself as even remotely "libertarian?"

Here's my take on this: By claiming to be a "left-leaning libertarian," collectivists--bent on breaking down every remaining cultural, social, linguistic, and moral edifice upon which this country was built--now seek to co-opt and confuse even the labels by which libertarians identify themselves. Erode and bastardize the concept of libertarianism, and you effectively exile the libertarians to a political "no man's land" where you can relabel them as sociopathic misfits.

There's a reason why so many leftist academics flock to the study of linguistics.

I'm still looking for a good explanation for why a number of posters here who identify as "left leaning," and who consistently show nothing but vitriol and disgust toward the libertarian members of this fundamentally libertarian forum, continue to come here--and for what purpose they came here to begin with. I'm not all that well versed with internet slang, but isn't this the definition of the term "troll?"
Seems a little terse don't you think?

Anyway, I happen to think diversity of opinion is/was a founding principle of the US. I shared my graph, which suggests I am Libertarian a bit left of center. However I do not have any problem with you holding different opinions than mine, and I am not interested in forcing you or anyone else in any direction. For example, I don't want to take away your guns and as far as I'm concerned, if guns are what you'd like to spend your hard earned money on, buy as many as you like.

If you hold different opinions to mine, I don't consider it mutually exclusive or a threat to me holding my opinions, that's the diversity part. Perhaps tolerance is a better word.
Do you feel that someone else can disagree with you in a respectful way, or is the mere existence of disagreement a signal of vitriol and disgust toward you?
If, through the voting process, a majority of my fellow citizens reveal that they feel differently than me, I'll go along with it, because that's democracy. At least my simplistic interpretation.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by glennds » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:05 am

ahhrunforthehills wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 10:50 am


When the Professor and Skipper finally say screw it and move to a different island (every island WANTS the Professor, Skipper.. but NONE want Ginger) .......
Well I want Ginger.
But not as much as I want Mary Ann.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by doodle » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:57 am

Here's my take on this: By claiming to be a "left-leaning libertarian," collectivists--bent on breaking down every remaining cultural, social, linguistic, and moral edifice upon which this country was built--now seek to co-opt and confuse even the labels by which libertarians identify themselves. Erode and bastardize the concept of libertarianism, and you effectively exile the libertarians to a political "no man's land" where you can relabel them as sociopathic misfits.

Huh? I think you confuse from whence libertarianism sprang....if anything the branch of "libertarianism" advocating for government sanctioned authoritarian corporate structures is quite a radical departure from the philosophies origins.

Libertarianism originated as a form of left-wing politics such as anti-authoritarian and anti-state socialists like anarchists,[6] especially social anarchists,[7] but more generally libertarian communists/Marxists and libertarian socialists.[8][9] These libertarians seek to abolish capitalism and private ownership of the means of production, or else to restrict their purview or effects to usufruct property norms, in favor of common or cooperative ownership and management, viewing private property as a barrier to freedom and liberty.[10][11][12][13]
Whether I agree entirely with that form of libertarianism is another matter, but let's be clear about who eroded or bastardized the term.

Secondly, the founding of this country was a contentious process. Anyone who watched Hamilton is aware that the process was full of rancor and disagreement. However, I cited Agrarian Justice by Thomas Paine...certainly one of our countrys most influential voices, that challenged land ownership rights that you probably hold to be self evident. And he's not the only founder who shared this view.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:02 pm

If you don't care if someone is transgender, you might be a libertarian.
If you want to tell me what I have to believe on the subject, you're definitely not.
And, I think that test focused more on internal beliefs, ignoring the tendency or not of the taker to want others to share his beliefs. So if I'm honest about my beliefs, some of them are going to ding my libertarian quotient. But the fact that in many cases I don't support legislating or otherwise coercing someone about my belief, adds to my LQ.

I'm not interested in what the word meant 250 years ago, though. I mean, it's fine, but it's not relevant to today. I hope we all know that a liberal used to be about what today's libertarian would be.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by pmward » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:02 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:43 am
I find the left view that the right are fascists ironic (see 'Antifa'). You don't see the right telling anyone what is acceptable to think. That is the hallmark of fascism.
I would disagree with that. There are a lot of people on the "right" telling people what is acceptable or not to think, say, and do; what is right and wrong, what is moral and immortal; etc. They believe the government should force these ideals on all of society whether the other side likes it or not. Now not every person on the right is like this, but this sub-sect which used to be rather small and out of the limelight does seem to be growing and getting more and more visibility.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by doodle » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:07 pm


I find the left view that the right are fascists ironic (see 'Antifa'). You don't see the right telling anyone what is acceptable to think. That is the hallmark of fascism.
facism sign.jpg

Antifa is like the QAnon of the left. ...a lot of confused people looking for scapegoat

On the right you have different issues related to free speech...

Kneeling during anthem or mandated school pledge of allegiance off the top of my head.
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Re: Libertarians of Reddit

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:08 pm

pmward wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 12:02 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:43 am
I find the left view that the right are fascists ironic (see 'Antifa'). You don't see the right telling anyone what is acceptable to think. That is the hallmark of fascism.
I would disagree with that. There are a lot of people on the "right" telling people what is acceptable or not to think, say, and do; what is right and wrong, what is moral and immortal; etc. They believe the government should force these ideals on all of society whether the other side likes it or not. Now not every person on the right is like this, but this sub-sect which used to be rather small and out of the limelight does seem to be growing and getting more and more visibility.
Are there things that are absolutely right or wrong?
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