The American Flag

[vnatale]

And I just read it was the least watched championship game since 1969. Wonder why.

I have only seen one football game since that 1969 game, which was the great Namath / Unitas game.

[pp4me]

And I just read it was the least watched championship game since 1969. Wonder why.

I have only seen one football game since that 1969 game, which was the great Namath / Unitas game.

Missed that one. Was having an overseas adventure at the time.

I remember well when the Cleveland Browns beat Johnny U. and company 27-0 while in was in high school even though everyone said the Baltimore Colts were unbeatable. I lived in Ohio and Jim Brown was my hero. I think it was the first game I ever watched in color at my grandparent's house.

[vnatale]

The Super Bowl’s Woke Capitalism

The NFL is desperate to showcase Black talent in an effort to get us to ignore its treatment of Black people.

https://www.thenation.com/article/society/super-bowl/


The NFL is not the only business to use “woke marketing” while hiding an ugly underbelly. To appeal to a younger generation that is more diverse and less tolerant of intolerance, most businesses play by the “Brooklyn Without Limits” playbook. But it is difficult to think of an institution that does it more ruthlessly than the NFL. “Celebrating Black voices, while stymying Black opportunity and destroying Black minds” is hardly the best look, so the league makes this grand effort to portray itself as something it’s not. The gap between what the owners put forward publicly and the reality of their Jim Crow business practices can no longer be ignored. The question is whether this league will be able to endure the weight of these contradictions for much longer, without actually engaging in real systemic change.

People inside the league offices have told me that these performative displays are a part of trying to turn the page toward a more enlightened future. They say that the league is changing and that progress takes time. I pondered that calculus at the start of Sunday’s game, and then the Kansas City Chiefs’ racist “war chant” was piped through the stadium sound system. This league isn’t changing. It is only becoming more effective at fake representation and false promises.

[GT]

Dallas Mavericks Owner Mark Cuban Stops Playing the National Anthem at Home Games

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/da ... d=msedgntp

[Xan]

I haven't heard a satisfactory explanation for why Indian team names are "racist".

I'll bet a lot that the woke police believe that when a team is named after white people, that that's racism by white people against non-white people. And we certainly know that when a team is named after non-white people, that's also racism by white people against non-white people. Pretty much that's because EVERYTHING is racism by white people against non-white people, in their view.

When the Fighting Irish or the Ragin' Cajuns take the field, or when the Minnesota Vikings dress up in long blond braids and blow that enormous horn, then team names and mascots are honoring the people involved. But when the team mascot has an Indian theme, then team names and mascots are DIShonoring the people involved. Why the difference?

[Xan]

Dallas Mavericks Owner Mark Cuban Stops Playing the National Anthem at Home Games

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/da ... d=msedgntp

Certainly that must be where all this is heading. I don't see how owners will keep playing it: if they don't like the anthem, then they'll stop, and if they do like the anthem, they might also stop in order to stop seeing it dishonored.

Well, congratulations... What's been achieved, exactly? Now we don't even have our national symbols to hold us together. The civil rights protests of the '60s appealed to American honor: "the American dream is a wonderful thing that should apply to us too". And that worked! Today, they just want to burn it down. I can't think of anything more divisive.

McWhorter and Loury talked about that a bit in this video (link it to that section of it):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5mNfxayyNfk&t=2761s

[glennds]

I haven't heard a satisfactory explanation for why Indian team names are "racist".

I'll bet a lot that the woke police believe that when a team is named after white people, that that's racism by white people against non-white people. And we certainly know that when a team is named after non-white people, that's also racism by white people against non-white people. Pretty much that's because EVERYTHING is racism by white people against non-white people, in their view.

When the Fighting Irish or the Ragin' Cajuns take the field, or when the Minnesota Vikings dress up in long blond braids and blow that enormous horn, then team names and mascots are honoring the people involved. But when the team mascot has an Indian theme, then team names and mascots are DIShonoring the people involved. Why the difference?

Assuming this is a serious question....
Maybe the answer is because most of the Indian names are pejorative labels imposed by white conquerors. Admittedly some are worse than others. For example, I can't think of too many Native Americans that would refer to themselves as redskins, or braves for that matter. Maybe chiefs is not quite as bad. I know of no Native Americans that refer to themselves or their peers as Indians. In Native American culture it is an accepted fact that the name Indian was a misnomer label that was slapped on them by Columbus when he though he had arrived in India.

Your examples of Fighting Irish and Ragin' Cajuns are using names that those ethnic groups originated and use to distinguish and describe themselves, with the addition of an adjective that could only be positive in the context of sports. Imagine if someone came up with the name Cincinnati Crackers, would it would feel a little pejorative to white people?

It's really not that hard a concept to look at issues from a different cultural viewpoint than your own. Once you can do so, some of these types of questions become self-explanatory.
Of course if one or the other party is overreacting, or unreasonable in their interpretation, or proposed resolution of the issue, that's a different story, but the root of the issue should be evident.

Personally I think the term racist is thrown around too easily and triggers a defensive response in many people that just becomes counterproductive. Sometimes other words like disrespectful, discourteous, impolite, insensitive or tasteless is enough. I know people who if accused of being a racist will take it as a declaration of nuclear war. But if you told them something they said or did was impolite or rude, they might handle it a little better and perhaps be willing to listen.

Maybe in your mind Xan, the term racist is too strong for the issue we're discussing. But having heard the rationale above, would you agree that some of these "Indian" names could be considered insensitive, rude or uncouth to Native Americans?

[Xan]

Maybe in your mind Xan, the term racist is too strong for the issue we're discussing. But having heard the rationale above, would you agree that some of these "Indian" names could be considered insensitive, rude or uncouth to Native Americans?

"could be considered" is the bar? The world is going to be awfully milquetoast if anything that "could be considered insensitive" has to go to the chopping block.

9 in 10 Native Americans are not bothered by the Washington Redskins

"Proud" is the most common word association that Native Americans have with the Washington Redskins

So basically, it's the white liberals which are banning these names, which effectively removes Native Americans from one of the most prominent ways that people get reminded that they still exist. Congratulations?

[glennds]

Maybe in your mind Xan, the term racist is too strong for the issue we're discussing. But having heard the rationale above, would you agree that some of these "Indian" names could be considered insensitive, rude or uncouth to Native Americans?

"could be considered" is the bar? The world is going to be awfully milquetoast if anything that "could be considered insensitive" has to go to the chopping block.

So basically, it's the white liberals which are banning these names, which effectively removes Native Americans from one of the most prominent ways that people get reminded that they still exist. Congratulations?

Help me understand. Is your answer yes, having heard the rationale I provided you could see where there might be a position ..... but nonetheless it's too low a bar to warrant any change or action?

I've seen the stat you provided and I get it. If the majority of Native Americans have no issue with a team name, then what's the big deal. And I get that the idea of "woke police" presents issues of it's own whether it is liberals behind it, attorneys, or whomever.

I was just responding to your original question of why an Indian name would be a controversy when names like the Fighting Irish or Ragin Cajuns are not.

Some of my own views about Native American and African American issues are based on my reading of the history of treatment of both groups. I've also spent a fair amount of time on the Navajo and Hopi reservations which might influence my thinking about Native Americans.
But I recognize that for many the things that happened a long time ago or are happening outside the boundaries of one's own neighborhood may not have much meaning hence the questions.

[Kriegsspiel]

TBH, I think "Football Team" is the best team name in the league now.

It used to be the Texans (I mean... come on...).

[Xan]

TBH, I think "Football Team" is the best team name in the league now.

It used to be the Texans (I mean... come on...).

Did you know that the Chiefs were the Dallas Texans in the 50s, until the Cowboys were created and ran them out of town?

[vnatale]

Dallas Mavericks Owner Mark Cuban Stops Playing the National Anthem at Home Games

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/da ... d=msedgntp

Educate me again why the national anthem must be played at sporting events.

Why isn't it played at the start of business for wherever everyone here works?

Why doesn't it get played before all musical entertainment events?

Why doesn't it get played at the beginning of every school day?

Why don't we all play it the first thing out of bed in the morning?

Why .............................

[GT]

Dallas Mavericks Owner Mark Cuban Stops Playing the National Anthem at Home Games

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/da ... d=msedgntp

Educate me again why the national anthem must be played at sporting events.

Why isn't it played at the start of business for wherever everyone here works?

Why doesn't it get played before all musical entertainment events?

Why doesn't it get played at the beginning of every school day?

Why don't we all play it the first thing out of bed in the morning?

Why .............................

I wouldn't mind having the Jimi Hendrix version as my alarm sound in the morning but that's just me.

Here is the back story you wanted - Looks like a tradition going back over 100 years - comradery and patriotism

The tradition of singing the national anthem at sporting events began during the 1918 World Series. During the seventh-inning stretch of the first game between the Boston Red Sox and the Chicago Cubs, the band began to play The Star-Spangled Banner (it was not the official national anthem at that time). Players turned to face the centerfield flagpole, and fans, who were already on their feet, began to sing along. By the end, nearly the entire stadium was singing, and the song ended to a chorus of thunderous applause.

At the time, World War I was nearing an end. Singing The Star-Spangled Banner that day was a well-timed display of comradery and patriotism. Harry Frazee, then owner of the Red Sox, subsequently began each other game of the series by having the band play the song.

The playing of The Star-Spangled Banner before games became such a hit, that after the war ended, the song continued to be played at baseball games. However, it was mainly reserved for notable occasions, like holidays, opening day, and the World Series.

During World War II, the song became even more popular, as it was a way for large crowds to show their patriotism. Additionally, advances in technology meant that the song could be played over speaker systems instead of requiring a band, making it easier to incorporate into games. By the time the war had ended, The Star-Spangled Banner had shifted from an exclusively baseball tradition, and quickly spread to other sporting events.

[vnatale]

Dallas Mavericks Owner Mark Cuban Stops Playing the National Anthem at Home Games

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/da ... d=msedgntp

Educate me again why the national anthem must be played at sporting events.

Why isn't it played at the start of business for wherever everyone here works?

Why doesn't it get played before all musical entertainment events?

Why doesn't it get played at the beginning of every school day?

Why don't we all play it the first thing out of bed in the morning?

Why .............................

I wouldn't mind having the Jimi Hendrix version as my alarm sound in the morning but that's just me.

Here is the back story you wanted - Looks like a tradition going back over 100 years - comradery and patriotism

The tradition of singing the national anthem at sporting events began during the 1918 World Series. During the seventh-inning stretch of the first game between the Boston Red Sox and the Chicago Cubs, the band began to play The Star-Spangled Banner (it was not the official national anthem at that time). Players turned to face the centerfield flagpole, and fans, who were already on their feet, began to sing along. By the end, nearly the entire stadium was singing, and the song ended to a chorus of thunderous applause.

At the time, World War I was nearing an end. Singing The Star-Spangled Banner that day was a well-timed display of comradery and patriotism. Harry Frazee, then owner of the Red Sox, subsequently began each other game of the series by having the band play the song.

The playing of The Star-Spangled Banner before games became such a hit, that after the war ended, the song continued to be played at baseball games. However, it was mainly reserved for notable occasions, like holidays, opening day, and the World Series.

During World War II, the song became even more popular, as it was a way for large crowds to show their patriotism. Additionally, advances in technology meant that the song could be played over speaker systems instead of requiring a band, making it easier to incorporate into games. By the time the war had ended, The Star-Spangled Banner had shifted from an exclusively baseball tradition, and quickly spread to other sporting events.

1) In 1970 I formed a "long hair" softball team. My goal was to play that Hendrix Woodstock version of the national anthem before our games.

2) I am old enough to remember when all TV and radio broadcasts of baseball games included the playing of the national anthem. However, after they finally realized that was using up valuable commercial time they stopped allowing us to hear it. Now, it's a rare event when I will either see on TV or hear on radio the national anthem being played before the start of a baseball game.

[InsuranceGuy]

[deleted]

[Lonestar]

[

At the time, World War I was nearing an end. Singing The Star-Spangled Banner that day was a well-timed display of comradery and patriotism. Harry Frazee, then owner of the Red Sox, subsequently began each other game of the series by having the band play the song.

Is not comradery and patriotism the main reason for any playing of our National Anthem? It's what causes some to become a little emotional when it's played.

If we are so divided as a nation at this time, and we have little love and appreciation for our country, maybe we do need to scrap it. I wonder how many of those fighting in two world wars to keep our country free, were they here today, would be finding logical reasons why some have the right to burn the flag, or disrespect the National Anthem. I suspect not many.

I'm old enough to remember when we had just a couple of tv stations in most towns, and they did not broadcast on a 24 hour basis. When they logged off each night they would play the National Anthem and show the American flag. I guess we did not realize at the time how offensive that was.

[GT]

[

At the time, World War I was nearing an end. Singing The Star-Spangled Banner that day was a well-timed display of comradery and patriotism. Harry Frazee, then owner of the Red Sox, subsequently began each other game of the series by having the band play the song.

Is not comradery and patriotism the main reason for any playing of our National Anthem? It's what causes some to become a little emotional when it's played.

If we are so divided as a nation at this time, and we have little love and appreciation for our country, maybe we do need to scrap it. I wonder how many of those fighting in two world wars to keep our country free, were they here today, would be finding logical reasons why some have the right to burn the flag, or disrespect the National Anthem. I suspect not many.

I'm old enough to remember when we had just a couple of tv stations in most towns, and they did not broadcast on a 24 hour basis. When they logged off each night they would play the National Anthem and show the American flag. I guess we did not realize at the time how offensive that was.

Is not comradery and patriotism the main reason for any playing of our National Anthem?

Agree - took me a while to get over Rosanne performing the "funny" parody version of the Anthem years ago.....

[glennds]

Is not comradery and patriotism the main reason for any playing of our National Anthem? It's what causes some to become a little emotional when it's played.

If we are so divided as a nation at this time, and we have little love and appreciation for our country, maybe we do need to scrap it. I wonder how many of those fighting in two world wars to keep our country free, were they here today, would be finding logical reasons why some have the right to burn the flag, or disrespect the National Anthem. I suspect not many.

I'm old enough to remember when we had just a couple of tv stations in most towns, and they did not broadcast on a 24 hour basis. When they logged off each night they would play the National Anthem and show the American flag. I guess we did not realize at the time how offensive that was.

Is not comradery and patriotism the main reason for any playing of our National Anthem?

Agree - took me a while to get over Rosanne performing the "funny" parody version of the Anthem years ago.....

How do you feel about it when various musical artists put their own interpretation on the national anthem?

I'm not talking parody like what Roseanne did, but more along the lines of musical creativity like say Jimi Hendrix, Marvin Gaye in 1983, or Jose Feliciano.
Feliciano in particular took a lot of heat in 1968 for his rendition that reimagined the national anthem in his signature latin/jazzy sound. There were people who found it decidedly unpatriotic to take artistic license with something as sacred as the national anthem, and there were calls for him to be deported. Others seem to feel there is nothing unpatriotic whatsoever about musical re-interpretation of the national anthem.
Where do board participants here stand?

[vnatale]

Is not comradery and patriotism the main reason for any playing of our National Anthem? It's what causes some to become a little emotional when it's played.

If we are so divided as a nation at this time, and we have little love and appreciation for our country, maybe we do need to scrap it. I wonder how many of those fighting in two world wars to keep our country free, were they here today, would be finding logical reasons why some have the right to burn the flag, or disrespect the National Anthem. I suspect not many.

I'm old enough to remember when we had just a couple of tv stations in most towns, and they did not broadcast on a 24 hour basis. When they logged off each night they would play the National Anthem and show the American flag. I guess we did not realize at the time how offensive that was.

Is not comradery and patriotism the main reason for any playing of our National Anthem?

Agree - took me a while to get over Rosanne performing the "funny" parody version of the Anthem years ago.....

How do you feel about it when various musical artists put their own interpretation on the national anthem?

I'm not talking parody like what Roseanne did, but more along the lines of musical creativity like say Jimi Hendrix, Marvin Gaye in 1983, or Jose Feliciano.
Feliciano in particular took a lot of heat in 1968 for his rendition that reimagined the national anthem in his signature latin/jazzy sound. There were people who found it decidedly unpatriotic and there were calls for him to be deported. Others seem to feel there is nothing unpatriotic whatsoever about musical re-interpretation of the national anthem.
Where do board participants here stand?

Of course I love them.

Liked the Hendrix version the first time I heard it.

Hearing this Carlos Santana version for the first time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gpVxE22qj8

And, here is another version by him that I had prior seen. In this one he is accompanied by his wife playing drums. I like this one more than the other version by him above.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ca ... &FORM=VIRE

Yet another Carlos Santana version with his wife:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ca ... &FORM=VIRE

Finally:

A Tale of Two National Anthems: See Who Rocked (and Who Flubbed) the Star Spangled Banner Over the Weekend
PEOPLE.com


https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=Ca ... M%3DVDMHRS

[GT]

Is not comradery and patriotism the main reason for any playing of our National Anthem? It's what causes some to become a little emotional when it's played.

If we are so divided as a nation at this time, and we have little love and appreciation for our country, maybe we do need to scrap it. I wonder how many of those fighting in two world wars to keep our country free, were they here today, would be finding logical reasons why some have the right to burn the flag, or disrespect the National Anthem. I suspect not many.

I'm old enough to remember when we had just a couple of tv stations in most towns, and they did not broadcast on a 24 hour basis. When they logged off each night they would play the National Anthem and show the American flag. I guess we did not realize at the time how offensive that was.

Is not comradery and patriotism the main reason for any playing of our National Anthem?

Agree - took me a while to get over Rosanne performing the "funny" parody version of the Anthem years ago.....

How do you feel about it when various musical artists put their own interpretation on the national anthem?

I'm not talking parody like what Roseanne did, but more along the lines of musical creativity like say Jimi Hendrix, Marvin Gaye in 1983, or Jose Feliciano.
Feliciano in particular took a lot of heat in 1968 for his rendition that reimagined the national anthem in his signature latin/jazzy sound. There were people who found it decidedly unpatriotic to take artistic license with something as sacred as the national anthem, and there were calls for him to be deported. Others seem to feel there is nothing unpatriotic whatsoever about musical re-interpretation of the national anthem.
Where do board participants here stand?

I didn't hate any of them - except the Rosanne one - Some I liked better than others due to my personal preference - or maybe the mood I was in at the time. As long as it is done with respect

[Kriegsspiel]

IMO, the highest standard for national anthems was 16 year-old Demi Lovato, 2008 Cowboys-Eagles football game. I sometimes get something caught in my eye when I hear it.

[Lonestar]

I'm like GT, I have my preference but as long as it's done with respect, and with the right attitude, far be it for me to judge. I'm still just amazed that in my lifetime we have come to such a level of disrespect for our country, and it's symbols, the flag and anthem. Also, I'm still having a difficult time trying to figure out why publicly showing these various forms of disrespect is supposed to solve the many perceived injustices.

[Tortoise]

I always figured the national anthem is played at big sports events because sports are symbolic of war, and war tends to involve nation-states. The court or field represents the battlefield, and the players represent the soldiers. Expressions like "Team A slaughtered Team B" highlight the war symbolism.

Playing the national anthem before big sports events in America could be viewed as a way of effectively saying, "Although we're cheering for opposing 'soldiers' in this symbolic 'war', let's not forget that ultimately all of us here are on team USA."

[vnatale]

I always figured the national anthem is played at big sports events because sports are symbolic of war, and war tends to involve nation-states. The court or field represents the battlefield, and the players represent the soldiers. Expressions like "Team A slaughtered Team B" highlight the war symbolism.

Playing the national anthem before big sports events in America could be viewed as a way of effectively saying, "Although we're cheering for opposing 'soldiers' in this symbolic 'war', let's not forget that ultimately all of us here are on team USA."

You must not go to many sports events?

It is played before many, many, many sports events. I'm almost certain before all MLB / NFL / NHL / NBA games. All college basketball games. Don't know about the other college sports. When I used to go to see six Western Massachusetts high school basketball finals all played the same day in the same gym I'd hear that national anthem six times that day!

[Tortoise]

You're right, I don't go to many sports events.

I guess strike the word "big" from my previous post, but otherwise everything I said still applies.