Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

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Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by InsuranceGuy » Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:39 pm

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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by Xan » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:06 pm

I'd also like to point out that the closed nature of "app stores" is a major problem. Notice how the open world of the web is unaffected.

Anything that can be done via standards at by not routing through a central company really should be. Only install apps when you absolutely have to.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by vnatale » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:21 pm

InsuranceGuy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:39 pm

https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/8/22220 ... ce-capitol
Apparently both Google and Apple have clear rules against violent threats and moderation of content. Apple’s App Store says apps must have “a method for filtering objectionable material from being posted” and “a mechanism to report offensive content.” Google’s Play Store bars apps that “depict or facilitate gratuitous violence or other dangerous activities,” and that “we don’t allow apps that contain or facilitate threats, harassment, or bullying.

Of course users of Parler can still use Chrome or other web browsers in the absence of an app, at least for now.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/8/22218 ... onaldtrump
After close review of recent Tweets from the @realDonaldTrump account and the context around them we have permanently suspended the account due to the risk of further incitement of violence.

Tech companies have moved from passive channels to active shapers of content posted by their users. Policing content in this manner involves disapproving one version of speech while letting another pass.

This computational propaganda amounts to what may well be the most far-reaching censorship operation in history. I cannot support empowering corporate overlords and unaccountable monopolists to regulate and suppress what can be heard.

While I don't use Twitter/Parler, I am glad I have already begun moving away from many of these services. Companies that do not allow for freedom of speech will not receive my patronage.


It is definitely NOT a Freedom of Speech issue! Go to any media's web site, e.g., New York Times and see if you have any "Freedom of Speech" when commenting on their articles. Go to any movie theater and tell me you have any "Freedom of Speech" when in it. When you are using the facilities of any private organization, whether real or virtual, you agree to abide by their rules. If you do not like them then do not use what they have to offer.

I echo Doodle. You are criticizing private companies. They can do what they want to do and either they reap the benefits or suffer the consequences of what they do or do not offer. Isn't that the Libertarian way?

Neither Twitter or Facebook was destined to succeed. Anyone else could have created them. If they did not succeed in creating a superior product then they would have never achieved the power that they currently have.

From my experience with Parler tonight I can see why they are way, way, way behind both Facebook and Twitter.

Vinny 10:17
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by Xan » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:21 pm

It is a major mistake to route communications through such companies. The Internet was designed to avoid exactly that. And now we're just willingly giving it up.

Also, it certainly is a freedom of speech issue. The government is the only entity REQUIRED to honor my freedom of speech. But it certainly is the case that I don't have it if these private companies shut me up. It's just that it's their right to do so. Doesn't mean it isn't an issue.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by Maddy » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:26 pm

Seriously, you guys have nothing to say on this topic except that the "apps" have problems?
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by Xan » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:30 pm

Maddy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:26 pm
Seriously, you guys have nothing to say on this topic except that the "apps" have problems?
We're buying more and more into closed ecosystems controlled by single entities. Without that, the censorship you're seeing couldn't take place.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by SomeDude » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:36 pm

Maddy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:26 pm
Seriously, you guys have nothing to say on this topic except that the "apps" have problems?
Complete control of speech and silencing descent is fine Maddy.......as long as the app has an intuitive interface.

Its sorta like crushing taxes and regulation and stripping us of our bill of rights is fine as long as the mean tweets stop.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:42 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:30 pm
Maddy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:26 pm
Seriously, you guys have nothing to say on this topic except that the "apps" have problems?
We're buying more and more into closed ecosystems controlled by single entities. Without that, the censorship you're seeing couldn't take place.
Without that, the censorship you're seeing will require limiting access to banking services, employment and travel.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by Xan » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:43 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:42 pm
Xan wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:30 pm
Maddy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:26 pm
Seriously, you guys have nothing to say on this topic except that the "apps" have problems?
We're buying more and more into closed ecosystems controlled by single entities. Without that, the censorship you're seeing couldn't take place.
Without that, the censorship you're seeing will require limiting access to banking services, employment and travel.
Good points!
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by InsuranceGuy » Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:53 pm

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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by vnatale » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:01 pm

InsuranceGuy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:53 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 9:21 pm

InsuranceGuy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:39 pm

https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/8/22220 ... ce-capitol
Apparently both Google and Apple have clear rules against violent threats and moderation of content. Apple’s App Store says apps must have “a method for filtering objectionable material from being posted” and “a mechanism to report offensive content.” Google’s Play Store bars apps that “depict or facilitate gratuitous violence or other dangerous activities,” and that “we don’t allow apps that contain or facilitate threats, harassment, or bullying.

Of course users of Parler can still use Chrome or other web browsers in the absence of an app, at least for now.

https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/8/22218 ... onaldtrump
After close review of recent Tweets from the @realDonaldTrump account and the context around them we have permanently suspended the account due to the risk of further incitement of violence.

Tech companies have moved from passive channels to active shapers of content posted by their users. Policing content in this manner involves disapproving one version of speech while letting another pass.

This computational propaganda amounts to what may well be the most far-reaching censorship operation in history. I cannot support empowering corporate overlords and unaccountable monopolists to regulate and suppress what can be heard.

While I don't use Twitter/Parler, I am glad I have already begun moving away from many of these services. Companies that do not allow for freedom of speech will not receive my patronage.


It is definitely NOT a Freedom of Speech issue! Go to any media's web site, e.g., New York Times and see if you have any "Freedom of Speech" when commenting on their articles. Go to any movie theater and tell me you have any "Freedom of Speech" when in it. When you are using the facilities of any private organization, whether real or virtual, you agree to abide by their rules. If you do not like them then do not use what they have to offer.

I echo Doodle. You are criticizing private companies. They can do what they want to do and either they reap the benefits or suffer the consequences of what they do or do not offer. Isn't that the Libertarian way?

Neither Twitter or Facebook was destined to succeed. Anyone else could have created them. If they did not succeed in creating a superior product then they would have never achieved the power that they currently have.

From my experience with Parler tonight I can see why they are way, way, way behind both Facebook and Twitter.

Vinny 10:17


Nice strawman you have going there. I am criticizing private companies, they can do what they want, which of course is the Libertarian way. Notice I never advocated we get the government involved, simply that I am voting with my feet and advocate others do the same. Saying that freedom of speech doesn't apply to private companies is simply a distraction from the argument at hand.

The fact remains that we are seeing the most widesweeping censorship effort of our time. You can choose to ignore it, accept it, or fight it. The line in the sand has been drawn despite my distaste for many forms of expression that are being censored.


When your concluding summary sentence is underlined with its theme of "Freedom of Speech" then I don't see how addressing its applicability to private companies is "simply a distraction from the argument at hand".

The armed forces always censor messages from those in the military to those outside of the military.

Censorship is a reality.

If there is going to be complaint about censorship by private companies then the only thing I can see you advocating is a complete "No Rules" environment. Otherwise, any form of rules can be viewed as censorship by someone.

Do we not even have a form of "censorship" here in this forum. We all know that there are certain boundaries of what we can write. Therefore there is no "freedom of speech" within this forum.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by InsuranceGuy » Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:41 pm

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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by InsuranceGuy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:14 am

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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by flyingpylon » Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:54 am

I’m sure the 12 year head start for Twitter has nothing to do with the difference in refinement between it and Parler.

But the Parler folks don’t seem terribly bright. Their platform relies on Amazon Web Services and their apps rely on Apple and Google for distribution. I’m not sure what their plans are for monetization but they probably rely on mainstream financial services that will surely shut them down. How long did they really expect to be able to operate as a platform for free speech?

Gab.com has been through all of this already and seems better positioned to survive. But I guess we’ll see.

The most absurd virtue signal of The Purge (so far) is that Olive Garden issued a statement revoking Sean Hannity’s “Lifetime Pasta Pass”... man, that’s gotta hurt. Of course his health will be better for it in the end.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by pp4me » Sat Jan 09, 2021 8:56 am

When the most powerful tech companies along with the MSM operate in cahoots with one political party, especially the one in power, I think the distinction between public and private entities is entering into a gray area never envisioned by those who wrote the first amendment.

Orwell did imagine it though.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by vnatale » Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:05 am

InsuranceGuy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:41 pm


The fact remains that social media compaines advertise themselves as a space to share content. Conversations that would have previously taken place in public spaces are now happening online. While I understand that these online conversations are hosted by private companies I feel that there should be more tolerance and less aggressive policing of content to reflect that these same conversations would have more latitude to be expressed in a more public forum.




I have oftentimes used Facebook a lot. For several different reasons.

One of them is to distribute pictures I take.

When I'm at an all-day music event, I can easily take 1,000 to 1,500 pictures.

I am quite adept at these keyboards and I can get them up to Facebook in record time.

Until they give me a warning to "slow down". Or, in some cases where they ban me for a day for having uploaded too many in too short a time period.

Another thing I do is contact the musicians in the pictures to tell them where they can see their pictures. Again, Facebook will shut me down due to having sent messages to too many people in a short period of time. I am then not allowed to message anyone until 24 hours passes.

Am I happy with any of that? Of course not. Am I doing anything nefarious? Definitely not.

All these things are happening to me because there is no human intervention, no one actually looking at what I'm doing. Just some algorithm that says when behavior like mine is detected its generally someone up to no good.

I've learned to get around getting banned for posting too many pictures too quickly by timing when I post a batch and waiting sufficient time to send the next ones. Same with our 1/2 hour time limit here for political posts.


All the above is an annoyance for me. But, in the big picture, I recognize that Facebook is a private company. I get a lot of benefit out of what I do with it. They have never charged me a cent for all I get out of it. It is THEIR house I am doing all these things in. I have no say in the rules that they determine for THEIR house. I have to live under the terms that set for being in THEIR house. Because I want to continue to do things in THEIR house, I behave accordingly so that they do not kick me out or permanently ban me from THEIR house.

I have no beliefs of entitlement that I can behave however I want to in THEIR house!

I do not engage in crybabyism when they do the above annoying things to me because from their point of view I am breaking the rules of THEIR house.

It is all as simple as that.

I will close with this....I always find it amusing that the Republicans are always telling us that they are the party of "responsibility" yet I find that many conservatives / Republicans will always be the last ones to accept any responsibility with a default mode of crybabyism. Our current president epitomizes all of this!
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by InsuranceGuy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:23 am

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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by vnatale » Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:39 am

InsuranceGuy wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:23 am

vnatale wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:05 am

InsuranceGuy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:41 pm


The fact remains that social media compaines advertise themselves as a space to share content. Conversations that would have previously taken place in public spaces are now happening online. While I understand that these online conversations are hosted by private companies I feel that there should be more tolerance and less aggressive policing of content to reflect that these same conversations would have more latitude to be expressed in a more public forum.



Another thing I do is contact the musicians in the pictures to tell them where they can see their pictures. Again, Facebook will shut me down due to having sent messages to too many people in a short period of time. I am then not allowed to message anyone until 24 hours passes.

Am I happy with any of that? Of course not. Am I doing anything nefarious? Definitely not.

All these things are happening to me because there is no human intervention, no one actually looking at what I'm doing. Just some algorithm that says when behavior like mine is detected its generally someone up to no good.

I've learned to get around getting banned for posting too many pictures too quickly by timing when I post a batch and waiting sufficient time to send the next ones. Same with our 1/2 hour time limit here for political posts.


Having limitations on the volume of facebook uploads or forum posts via an algorithm is simply not the same as banning people or opinions by operators of a platform that have a differening views, especially monopolistic platforms.



Yes, definitely not the same.

But the principle is the same.

It is their house. They make the rules. You are a guest in their house. You abide by their rules or they can decide they no longer want to have you as a guest in their house.

Same as if you were to come in my house or me in yours.

I also don't agree that they are monopolistic platforms. Was not MySpace considered THE thing? If the market exists, alternatives can be created to Facebook or Twitter.

How many even use either one of them? What percentage of the population use either one of them?

What percentage of the population listens to conservative talk radio? Quickly name me all the non-conservative talk radio shows.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by InsuranceGuy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 12:38 pm

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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by InsuranceGuy » Sat Jan 09, 2021 1:28 pm

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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by ahhrunforthehills » Sat Jan 09, 2021 2:22 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:39 am
InsuranceGuy wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 11:23 am
vnatale wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 9:05 am
InsuranceGuy wrote:
Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:41 pm

The fact remains that social media compaines advertise themselves as a space to share content. Conversations that would have previously taken place in public spaces are now happening online. While I understand that these online conversations are hosted by private companies I feel that there should be more tolerance and less aggressive policing of content to reflect that these same conversations would have more latitude to be expressed in a more public forum.

Another thing I do is contact the musicians in the pictures to tell them where they can see their pictures. Again, Facebook will shut me down due to having sent messages to too many people in a short period of time. I am then not allowed to message anyone until 24 hours passes.

Am I happy with any of that? Of course not. Am I doing anything nefarious? Definitely not.

All these things are happening to me because there is no human intervention, no one actually looking at what I'm doing. Just some algorithm that says when behavior like mine is detected its generally someone up to no good.

I've learned to get around getting banned for posting too many pictures too quickly by timing when I post a batch and waiting sufficient time to send the next ones. Same with our 1/2 hour time limit here for political posts.
Having limitations on the volume of facebook uploads or forum posts via an algorithm is simply not the same as banning people or opinions by operators of a platform that have a differening views, especially monopolistic platforms.

Yes, definitely not the same.

But the principle is the same.

It is their house. They make the rules. You are a guest in their house. You abide by their rules or they can decide they no longer want to have you as a guest in their house.

Same as if you were to come in my house or me in yours.

I also don't agree that they are monopolistic platforms. Was not MySpace considered THE thing? If the market exists, alternatives can be created to Facebook or Twitter.

How many even use either one of them? What percentage of the population use either one of them?

What percentage of the population listens to conservative talk radio? Quickly name me all the non-conservative talk radio shows.
Their terms may exempt them commercially, however not criminally going forward. The democrats want to repeal Section 230. When you allow speech from all parties you are a neutral platform. When you restrict speech from all sides that could lead to organized violence you are a neurtral platform. When it is obvious (FYI, I am moderate... neither conservative or liberal) and I mean OBVIOUS that you are more heavy handed with one side than the other, you are an accessory to that organized violence. Just because you drove the get-a-way car doesn't mean you weren't involved in robbing the bank.

Furthermore, I feel that this could very well be a massive turning point in this country. Social media has made their platforms increasingly addictive over the past decade. Obviously, Youtube is showing Doodle different "recommended" videos than Libertarian666. Facebooks is showing them both extremely different feeds/posts. Doodle and Tech each get their dopamine drop because they get to feel validated by the content that they view (which reinforce their beliefs), the acceptance of the views they share in their comments, etc. They get a dopamine drop, spend more time, and get to be exposed to additional advertising. Now, even without these huge social media outlets, many people in this country (hell, many people in this forum) are addicted to documenting their thoughts to a bunch of strangers on the internet. It is literally an addiction. What happens when you take the bottle away from a drunk who likes being a drunk?

I think there is also another issue...

When you suppress any behavior (like chewing your fingernails) the behavior doesn't just disappear. Behaviors almost always have underlying reasons. When you attempt to remove the behavior it either manifests into another behavior (which is difficult because their are no large-scale conservative social media platforms) or it builds until you have a behavior that is REALLY destructive.

When you scold a child and they go to give you an excuse and you say "I don't want to hear it... go to your room", why do they slam the door? I wonder how many people got punched after saying "talk to the hand"? If you refuse to hear someone, it tends to trigger a response where they feel like they will MAKE YOU hear them.

If I had family that worked for social media companies... I would be a little scared for them going into the office. Crazy liberals burn and loot, crazy conservatives drop buildings and go on rampages. I can see this leading to the Dems going after the guns... which will get even more conservative stirred up.

I read that about half of republicans supported what happened at the Capitol. From people I have talked to, that sounds about right. That is a MASSIVE amount of people. Going after guns would force the other half of republicans to pick a side. This is serious stuff.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by ochotona » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:12 pm

People can't have it both ways...

If you think that censorship by a private company of content on their platform is wrong, and their ability to censor should be limited in some way to honor "truth and beauty of individual expression (or whatever)", then you're essentially talking about a curtailment of private property rights, and the right to control activities which are controllable by them and which they wish to control.

Then you believe the Fundy Christian baker must be compelled to bake the wedding cake for the poly / inter-species pod (three adult humans and an animal getting hitched).

Or, the RCC must have female clergy, or better yet, they need to allow a Catholic Church Satanists division.

Because why? Because MUH FREEDUMS? Wait... doesn't the hosting organizations in all of these (absurd) examples have MUH FREEDUMS too?

Complain about it, fine, but that's all you can do. Otherwise, you're put private assets under State control, probably under Court control. {shudder}

Go lease your own servers, Donald! Hire your own IT staff! (Betcha Dell will repo them or brick them anyway after he doesn't pay his invoices).
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by vnatale » Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:33 pm

I will say it again loudly.

Conservatives / Republicans preach and criticize the other side for many failings. Yet when it comes down to it too many times they are guilty of the same failings!

1) Accept no responsibility
2) Cry Baby from the roof tops
3) Play victim
4) Believe the government need to step in to regulate private business behaviors

Finally... about the Right being "censored" and, thus, having no voice...plus the BIG BAD Main Stream Media brainwashing the populace...

Take a look at these radio ratings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... o_programs

I count 90 million weekly listeners to conservative radio to only 7 million to progressive talk radio.

Yet it is the BIG BAD Main Stream Media that rules the day and condemns that paragon of virtue, Donald Trump?

Take a look at these TV ratings, which are led by Fox News...

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-a ... -week-2020

They pale in comparison to the radio ratings.

Conservatives / Republicans need to own up to the fact that Donald Trump got his unrelenting criticism from certain places because he FULLY deserved it! Stop playing victim! Accept responsibility!

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by flyingpylon » Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:40 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:33 pm
I will say it again loudly.

Conservatives / Republicans preach and criticize the other side for many failings. Yet when it comes down to it too many times they are guilty of the same failings!

1) Accept no responsibility
2) Cry Baby from the roof tops
3) Play victim
4) Believe the government need to step in to regulate private business behaviors

Finally... about the Right being "censored" and, thus, having no voice...plus the BIG BAD Main Stream Media brainwashing the populace...

Take a look at these radio ratings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... o_programs

I count 90 million weekly listeners to conservative radio to only 7 million to progressive talk radio.

Yet it is the BIG BAD Main Stream Media that rules the day and condemns that paragon of virtue, Donald Trump?

Take a look at these TV ratings, which are led by Fox News...

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-a ... -week-2020

They pale in comparison to the radio ratings.

Conservatives / Republicans need to own up to the fact that Donald Trump got his unrelenting criticism from certain places because he FULLY deserved it! Stop playing victim! Accept responsibility!
Crying about crybabies is even worse.
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Re: Censorship continued: first the Parler app then @realDonaldTrump

Post by vnatale » Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:06 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 4:40 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Jan 09, 2021 3:33 pm

I will say it again loudly.

Conservatives / Republicans preach and criticize the other side for many failings. Yet when it comes down to it too many times they are guilty of the same failings!

1) Accept no responsibility
2) Cry Baby from the roof tops
3) Play victim
4) Believe the government need to step in to regulate private business behaviors

Finally... about the Right being "censored" and, thus, having no voice...plus the BIG BAD Main Stream Media brainwashing the populace...

Take a look at these radio ratings:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... o_programs

I count 90 million weekly listeners to conservative radio to only 7 million to progressive talk radio.

Yet it is the BIG BAD Main Stream Media that rules the day and condemns that paragon of virtue, Donald Trump?

Take a look at these TV ratings, which are led by Fox News...

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-a ... -week-2020

They pale in comparison to the radio ratings.

Conservatives / Republicans need to own up to the fact that Donald Trump got his unrelenting criticism from certain places because he FULLY deserved it! Stop playing victim! Accept responsibility!


Crying about crybabies is even worse.


No. Just confronting them on their hypocracies and inconsistencies.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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