A CIA coup in 2014 under Obama that overthrew the Ukrainian government and installed an anti-Russian one is exactly what happened here. I didn't know that was even still being disputed anywhere. Hence the Russians moved in to secure some of the heavy Russian populated areas (that were also strategic). They didn't secure the Donbass which is heavily Russian, and the Kiev Regime has been at war with those self-declared republics since 2014 with tens of thousands of casualties and misery for the civilians.dualstow wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:02 am I reject the idea that the Ukrainians are willing to fight because Washington told them to. This is not the 1950s or 60s with the CIA organizing some coup. I’m one of those suckers who believes that the Ukrainians want to fight back, and that Putin did not expect them to.
Without getting involved in directly fighting the Russians, the U.S. has agreed, in a limited capacity, to supply weapons and other tools of war, as well as training. Are they doing it out of altruism? No, there are geopolitical motives. We are less evil enough than the Russians that I support it. But no one really knows the outcome.
Russia tolerated this for a long time, but could not tolerate the Biden regimes moves to cement Kiev as a NATO nation. Their demands were Ukrainian neutrality and an end to the attack on the Russians in the Donbass. I think KGB said it well that the solution was for the US gov't to pull the war funding and other nations would follow suit quickly and it would all end. I'm sure the same holds true from the start. If the US gov't had taken a neutral stance in 2021 and early 2022, there would have been zero chance of Russian invasion. There would have been no discussion of Kiev joining NATO and Russia threatening invasion to support the people in the Donbass would have hopefully been a wake-up call to the Ukrainian military, even the NAZI elements.
It's possible some of the fanatical NAZI orgs would have engaged the Russians but I imagine they would have been brushed aside. The only thing sustaining the Uki Army is outside "help" now so that's what's prolonging the conflict.
Now Kiev has said no peace is possible unless Russia vacates all former Ukrainian territory including Crimea. So no peace is possible until Kiev surrenders because Russia will never accept this. The misery and death will continue, and the chance of WW3 will hang in the air, all so the Russians can be humiliated and/or killed and the Donbass republics controlled by Kiev.
Do you think it was right of the US intelligence agencies to foment a coup in 2014?
How about Kiev attacking the Donbass republics for 8 years, acceptable?
Do you still think Putin is trying to conquer all of Ukraine and bring it into the Russian Federation? - This is fundamental to the disagreement
Should the US just go all the way and declare war? If not, what is the purpose here of prolonging the inevitable EXCEPT to destroy Ukraine and kill Russians?
Sorry for all the questions. I'm not trying the "argument by question" tactic. Generally interested in the answers because we have such a dramatically different take on the causes here and the justification for continuing the conflict.
Obviously other opinions are welcome to any statements or questions I've posed.