Trump reelection bid

If Trump announced he was going to run in 2024 would you vote for him knowing what you know today?

Yes
3
15%
No
17
85%
 
Total votes: 20
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by Jack Jones » Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:38 am

Kbg wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:54 am
#3, paper no, voter ID yes, single day voting also no...rationale: we should make voting easier not harder for real people. Built properly, electronic voting would be extremely hard to hack if not impossible. Safer than paper. BITCOIN lovers, step in here please. Your moment to shine/brag up the technology.
Are you talking about voting from home? Even with an immutable ledger, I don't know how we could prevent you from, say, voting as your grandpa. There's some credibility in having people show up somewhere to vote.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by Dieter » Tue Aug 16, 2022 11:27 am

boglerdude wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 11:32 pm
1) Term limits - eg Biden has worked out dozens of ways to conceal bribes over decades as a senator. If you churn politicians, that breaks up the trust they could build over time with bribers "donors and lobbyists"

2) Ranked-choice voting - As expected, blocked by DeSantis and Newsom. If your 1st choice candidate doesn't get enough votes, the vote is transferred to the 2nd choice.

3) Paper ballots and voter ID

edit1: Proportional Representation Explained https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QT0I-sdoSXU
1) have term limits in CA been a positive?

(Honest question)

2) YES!

3) paper audit

ID — sorry, I don’t trust them administering the rules

Another poll tax
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by joypog » Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:16 pm

I don't think Term Limits are nearly as important as some sort of voting system that doesn't result in politicians appealing to the crazies in their party.

I actually think institutional knowledge and experience can be a great benefit - if they are willing to work with the other side. Which isn't happening nowadays.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by Kbg » Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:53 pm

Jack Jones wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 10:38 am
Kbg wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:54 am
#3, paper no, voter ID yes, single day voting also no...rationale: we should make voting easier not harder for real people. Built properly, electronic voting would be extremely hard to hack if not impossible. Safer than paper. BITCOIN lovers, step in here please. Your moment to shine/brag up the technology.
Are you talking about voting from home? Even with an immutable ledger, I don't know how we could prevent you from, say, voting as your grandpa. There's some credibility in having people show up somewhere to vote.
I'm completely cool with people voting from home. I've done it in a very red state for the past 10 years (not a single national rep is a D). The R crazies in our red state tried to change voting back to in-person and the initiative was crushed. And yes, I could have voted for my wife or she could have voted for me.

A little nuance here...a perfect election will never happen in our lifetimes. That's a fact. The issue is whether or not the level of imperfection makes a difference in the outcome. If it doesn't make a difference, who cares? Humans build non-optimal things all of the time that work good enough. I'm all for whatever it takes, including a complete revote if the result is in doubt...but it needs to be legitimately in doubt which requires some evidence beyond some sore loser politician floating a lie.

I'm also for 100% voter ID...but if I pay taxes on my home in the current year, I expect a ballot to show up when it's voting time and I highly doubt there's a political campaign out there who is going to pay my property taxes for 1 at most 2 votes. And we both know that everybody and their dog knows if I'm dead or sold my house.

Probably 99%+ of the time there's zero doubt as to an election's results. If you don't think professional politicians in important elections aren't statisticianed up you don't know what happens in modern big money campaigns. These are the guys and gals who are providing the color commentary 'from the campaign" on how it's going in state X or city Y. Want some proof of this...find a YouTube video with somebody like Karl Rove or James Carville talk during one of the campaigns they managed or were a talking head for. You can rest assured both sides know if something is out of whack somewhere...just like Vegas casinos know when to focus on certain tables to look for gambling cheats or casino employees who have gone rogue. In fact, this information is so well known and refined that both parties use it to very precisely dice up congressional districts to guarantee them to a party and/or minimize the other side's ability to be competitive. Technologically, I think this is way more dangerous to democracy than voter fraud. It's effectively massive voter disenfranchisement that happens across the entire country with very few exceptions.

But let's cut to the chase...this whole "concerned" thing came about due to deliberate disinformation campaigns which the Soviets/Russians and communists everywhere would be proud of. Colloquially known as "the big lie," which it was.

The above is why people like me have a serious problem with the big lie. It's unethical and dishonest and easily refuted...but yet it persists...and here we go, back to being a good communist.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by Kbg » Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:19 pm

joypog wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 5:16 pm
I don't think Term Limits are nearly as important as some sort of voting system that doesn't result in politicians appealing to the crazies in their party.

I actually think institutional knowledge and experience can be a great benefit - if they are willing to work with the other side. Which isn't happening nowadays.
You're spot on. If you know how Congress works, the above is probably the best single argument against term limits.

I also think open primaries with the top X moving on to the general election with ranked choice voting is a great system. Both parties fight it tooth and nail for obvious reasons...it guts a lot of their power. We do need elections where politicians campaign to the people and not the hardcore party members.

I still think 12 years in any office is plenty and would remove a lot of pathologies we have in our system. If someone wants to be a professional politician then let them move on and run for a different office.

So...if I could waive my dictator wand for one or two strokes I would aim them at both the above.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by joypog » Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:13 am

MangoMan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:59 am
The issue is whether people believe their vote mattered. If the public perceives there was cheating on a large scale by the winning team, it's a huge problem, even if it doesn't actually affect the outcome.
...
Coordinated, large scale vote dumps are the concern.
At the moment, the bigger concern is the coordinated, large scale propaganda campaign by a losing presidential candidate throwing a multi-year temper tantrum.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by Kbg » Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:18 am

On perception, agree it’s important. But, I think it’s fair to expect people to use some common sense and go with the weight of evidence.

when 50+ judges all agree on the same thing people should be able to figure out they were lied to. No?
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by joypog » Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:39 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:18 am
On perception, agree it’s important. But, I think it’s fair to expect people to use some common sense and go with the weight of evidence.

when 50+ judges all agree on the same thing people should be able to figure out they were lied to. No?
One would hope.

If it's not a naive sheeple populace, then the continued persistence of the big lie is a signal that a large segment of the Right has completely bought into strong man authoritarianism. They believe in it because they don't actually care about free and fair elections. They only want the win and are happy grab onto anything, however outlandish, that allows them to completely disregard the system when it doesn't give them a favorable result.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by Xan » Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:14 am

You might want to be careful of the certainty of your opinion, joypog.

For example, in a number of states, Democratic governors greatly expanded mail-in voting, in violation of election laws, purportedly because of Covid. These are states like Pennsylvania that Trump narrowly won in 2016 that he went on to narrowly lose in 2020.

Judges looking at it decided that the governors had indeed violated the law, but that there wasn't anything they could do about it that wouldn't be worse than the infraction.

Was the 2020 election "stolen" by this alone? I don't know how you one could say it wasn't. Who knows what internal reasoning other judges were using looking at other cases?

And maybe it's true that overturning election results is a remedy too far. Okay. Nixon decided the same thing when he conceded the stolen 1960 election. But what we then have to do going forward, HAVE to do, is button up voting tighter than Fort Knox. There has to be no room to even say "the election was stolen". We have the capability to take that away, and we must use it.

I should also point out that only people on the right are lambasted for questioning election integrity. Stacy Abrams in Georgia does it. Hillary Clinton did it too, IIRC she went so far as to say the only way she'd lose is if the election were stolen. Crickets.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by joypog » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:27 am

I agree with your contentions about Stacey Abrams and Clinton - I brought Abrams up in an earlier post. I was in Berkeley over the 2000's so I know very well that the left can be election-skeptical. However, they weren't the Democratic party mainstream. We're not talking about weed smoking art students anymore. The carpetbagging GOP Senate candidate went to court to discount my entire state's vote after the election.

The Republicans chose not to challenge the laws BEFORE the election, and were correctly put shut down after the elections were completed. Its their own damn fault for not working out the process when they had the chance.

Furthermore, there has been no proof given concerning these claims of fraud. Certainly nowhere at a mass level swinging the results. Where's the beef? Just a bunch of hot air and insinuations. We're long past the point of "just asking questions".

For sure, there are things to be done. The Dem's are fucking idiots for pussyfooting around with the electoral count reform act - just get it passed already. Same for the DNC supporting Trumpists in the primaries in the hope of getting easier opponents in the general.

To be fair to Republicans, if Dem leadership really truly doesn't believe that those folks are a threat to democracy and free and fair elections, maybe I shouldn't worry about it myself.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by Kbg » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:28 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:14 am
You might want to be careful of the certainty of your opinion, joypog.

For example, in a number of states, Democratic governors greatly expanded mail-in voting, in violation of election laws, purportedly because of Covid. These are states like Pennsylvania that Trump narrowly won in 2016 that he went on to narrowly lose in 2020.

Judges looking at it decided that the governors had indeed violated the law, but that there wasn't anything they could do about it that wouldn't be worse than the infraction.

Was the 2020 election "stolen" by this alone? I don't know how you one could say it wasn't. Who knows what internal reasoning other judges were using looking at other cases?

And maybe it's true that overturning election results is a remedy too far. Okay. Nixon decided the same thing when he conceded the stolen 1960 election. But what we then have to do going forward, HAVE to do, is button up voting tighter than Fort Knox. There has to be no room to even say "the election was stolen". We have the capability to take that away, and we must use it.

I should also point out that only people on the right are lambasted for questioning election integrity. Stacy Abrams in Georgia does it. Hillary Clinton did it too, IIRC she went so far as to say the only way she'd lose is if the election were stolen. Crickets.
From the top...

Throw AZ and PA into the Trump column...he still lost (And in AZ even the crazies funded study came back with an answer they didn't want to hear. (Because it was a big lie...and remains a big lie)

Imagine that!? The largest pandemic since 1918 and mail in voting was expanded (Vast conspiracy or a natural response to a pandemic? Between the two, this one isn't hard for me but apparently, with no proof, it is for some.)

And 50 judges independently come to the same conclusion...and no, judges look at the facts of the cases presented to them (and a huge number were Republican appointed)

Are you shocked that the hypocrisy is so deep you could drown in it? Left press crickets, right press full on bull horn. Typical.

On Hillary...she conceded the election and did not do anything remotely like Trump and his folks did.

You (the generic you) are being lambasted for one solid reason...you've got nothing substantive on your side of the facts and evidence ledger. Someone who demonstrably lies and continues to cling to a lie should expect pushback and it is deserved.

And of course I assume you are up on your Trump election history...the fact that before every primary he ran in if it was close the election results were announced as stolen before the first vote was cast. Coincidence, I think not.

Here's the facts...the election was about Trump. He got clobbered in the electoral college and lost the popular vote by a little under 5% which is beyond the statistical margin of error. His party lost the Senate and his party lost the House.

The tribe has spoken.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by Xan » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:31 am

Look at it this way: Trump has exposed a flaw in the system. Let's button it up so that a narcissist like him can't make the outlandish claims he's making.

My biggest fear is that neither party actually wants 100% verifiable elections so that they have room to claim "fraud" when they lose. This is a major problem.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by joypog » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:36 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:31 am
Look at it this way: Trump has exposed a flaw in the system. Let's button it up so that a narcissist like him can't make the outlandish claims he's making.
You simultaneously give Trump too much and not enough credit.

You're giving an arsonist credit for proving a building could be burned down....but you don't think he could do it again? Especially him?

He could shoot a man on 5th avenue and sell it as his own martyrdom.

But yes, I'm all for making things better, especially since we will be getting bi-partisan wailing and gnashing of teeth for the next several cycles now that this pandora's box has been fully opened.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by Kbg » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:39 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:31 am
Look at it this way: Trump has exposed a flaw in the system. Let's button it up so that a narcissist like him can't make the outlandish claims he's making.

My biggest fear is that neither party actually wants 100% verifiable elections so that they have room to claim "fraud" when they lose. This is a major problem.
No disagreement, but I have some questions for you.

How do you do that?

No matter what you do, can't someone can still throw out some BS lie that it was stolen somehow?

How much are you willing to pay for it?
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by glennds » Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:59 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:39 am
Xan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:31 am
Look at it this way: Trump has exposed a flaw in the system. Let's button it up so that a narcissist like him can't make the outlandish claims he's making.

My biggest fear is that neither party actually wants 100% verifiable elections so that they have room to claim "fraud" when they lose. This is a major problem.
No disagreement, but I have some questions for you.

How do you do that?

No matter what you do, can't someone can still throw out some BS lie that it was stolen somehow?

How much are you willing to pay for it?
This.
It's just not possible to have a 100% verifiable, transparent election that would satisfy every voter at an individual level. If it is audited, how do you know you can trust the auditor? Even if you can somehow verify that your personal vote was counted, how do you know the other votes were legitimate? Even if you can vote in an old fashioned town hall and watch everything that's physically going on, how do you know what's going on one county or two states over? Blockchain or highly encrypted tech? Forget it, that's more opaque than anything for Joe Sixpack.

Sure we can move the ball forward by some tightening here and there (and we should). But in the end, some level of basic trust will be necessary to get across the finish line.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:03 am

glennds wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:59 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:39 am

Xan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:31 am

Look at it this way: Trump has exposed a flaw in the system. Let's button it up so that a narcissist like him can't make the outlandish claims he's making.

My biggest fear is that neither party actually wants 100% verifiable elections so that they have room to claim "fraud" when they lose. This is a major problem.


No disagreement, but I have some questions for you.

How do you do that?

No matter what you do, can't someone can still throw out some BS lie that it was stolen somehow?

How much are you willing to pay for it?


This.
It's just not possible to have a 100% verifiable, transparent election that would satisfy every voter at an individual level. If it is audited, how do you know you can trust the auditor? Even if you can somehow verify that your personal vote was counted, how do you know the other votes were legitimate? Even if you can vote in an old fashioned town hall and watch everything that's physically going on, how do you know what's going on one county or two states over? Blockchain or highly encrypted tech? Forget it, that's more opaque than anything for Joe Sixpack.

Sure we can move the ball forward by some tightening here and there (and we should). But in the end, some level of basic trust will be necessary to get across the finish line.


The same level of basic trust we place in so many other aspects of life recognizing that further verifications grossly fail the benefit / cost ratio.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:07 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:19 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:35 pm

No one currently. But he definitely has had his fans here.


Those people have all been banned from this forum. And... I wonder why no one will vote yes on the poll 8)


However, speaking about voting fraud and fraud, in general. For those who have been banned here I assume that since you and I and a few others are one of the few to use our real names that it'd be simple for those who have been banned to easily come back here under one of the ubiquitous pseudonyms we regularly see here? In other words, for anyone who has been banned it would be quite easy for someone to get back here? I assume XAN is not tracking us somehow via our unique IP addresses. Even if he could ... I assume it'd not be that difficult to get around that?
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by Kbg » Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:09 am

glennds wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:59 am
Kbg wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:39 am
Xan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 9:31 am
Look at it this way: Trump has exposed a flaw in the system. Let's button it up so that a narcissist like him can't make the outlandish claims he's making.

My biggest fear is that neither party actually wants 100% verifiable elections so that they have room to claim "fraud" when they lose. This is a major problem.
No disagreement, but I have some questions for you.

How do you do that?

No matter what you do, can't someone can still throw out some BS lie that it was stolen somehow?

How much are you willing to pay for it?
This.
It's just not possible to have a 100% verifiable, transparent election that would satisfy every voter at an individual level. If it is audited, how do you know you can trust the auditor? Even if you can somehow verify that your personal vote was counted, how do you know the other votes were legitimate? Even if you can vote in an old fashioned town hall and watch everything that's physically going on, how do you know what's going on one county or two states over? Blockchain or highly encrypted tech? Forget it, that's more opaque than anything for Joe Sixpack.

Sure we can move the ball forward by some tightening here and there (and we should). But in the end, some level of basic trust will be necessary to get across the finish line.
Now for the kicker...this stuff is not new.

States have laws and processes for digging into the details if there is credible fraud or a very close result...and they were followed for Trump when he had either going for him.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by glennds » Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:18 am

Kbg wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:09 am


Now for the kicker...this stuff is not new.

States have laws and processes for digging into the details if there is credible fraud or a very close result...and they were followed for Trump when he had either going for him.
Right. But the issue is, up until now we trusted those laws and processes. We trusted decisions from Courts to be the final word also. Case closed.
I'm just saying the real issue is how to bring trust back.
No amount of enhanced election mechanics is enough to do it IMO.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by dualstow » Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:48 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:19 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:35 pm
No one currently. But he definitely has had his fans here.
Those people have all been banned from this forum. And... I wonder why no one will vote yes on the poll 8)
As far as i can see — and i can see a bit behind the curtain — no one was banned for their political preferences.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:20 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:48 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 10:19 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Aug 14, 2022 8:35 pm

No one currently. But he definitely has had his fans here.


Those people have all been banned from this forum. And... I wonder why no one will vote yes on the poll 8)


As far as i can see — and i can see a bit behind the curtain — no one was banned for their political preferences.


I agree. It was for certain behaviors exhibited repeatedly.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by Kbg » Wed Aug 17, 2022 11:56 am

Desert wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:35 am
glennds wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 10:18 am
Right. But the issue is, up until now we trusted those laws and processes. We trusted decisions from Courts to be the final word also. Case closed.
I'm just saying the real issue is how to bring trust back.
No amount of enhanced election mechanics is enough to do it IMO.
Yeah, I agree. Trump began casting doubt on election results way back in 2016, and really cranked up the narrative in 2020 as it became pretty apparent that he was going to lose the election by a wide margin. As Steve Bannon admitted, Trump planned all along to claim victory on election night before the mail-in ballots were counted. Since he had continuously disparaged mail in voting prior to the election, it was well known that mail-in ballots would lean toward democrats.

Trump was the GOP's worst enemy in 2020. He lost the presidency, and also played a part in losing the senate by motivating voters in GA.
Intellectually this is where I've developed a very hard edge/lack of sympathy for those worried about or claiming widespread election fraud. If you can't, all by yourself, arrive at the highly probable conclusion that with 50+ court cases coming up with the same thing and still chosing to believe the big lie...you're stupid incapable of independent thought.

Having noted the above, it looks like there's board consensus for improvement if it helps the confidence factor which I'm all for as well.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by joypog » Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:13 pm

Our current federalized system at least diffuses power and control in a way that might be more resilient, messy as it is.

My problem with national “improvements” is that it would invariably centralize the system and who is gonna trust the feds when their side loses?

Ultimately it comes back to that issue of mutual trust but our parties have been happily slaughtering that golden goose.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by joypog » Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:12 pm
joypog wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 7:13 am
MangoMan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 6:59 am
The issue is whether people believe their vote mattered. If the public perceives there was cheating on a large scale by the winning team, it's a huge problem, even if it doesn't actually affect the outcome.
...
Coordinated, large scale vote dumps are the concern.
At the moment, the bigger concern is the coordinated, large scale propaganda campaign by a losing presidential candidate throwing a multi-year temper tantrum.
Are you talking about Hillary in 2016? 8)
What riot did she invite?

Yeah she wasn’t the most graceful at conceding. But when was she ever graceful at anything?

It’s hard to take you seriously when you make mountains out of Dem missteps and minimize GOP transgressions.
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Re: Trump reelection bid

Post by joypog » Wed Aug 17, 2022 1:20 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:45 pm
joypog wrote:
Wed Aug 17, 2022 12:19 pm


It’s hard to take you seriously when you make mountains out of Dem GOP missteps and minimize GOP Dem transgressions.
Right back atcha Bro.
Explain how HRC’s words and actions are equivalent to instigating a riot at the capital after months of lying about the election results.
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