West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by Kbg » Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:51 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 11:00 am
Kbg,

Here's my pushback, coming from someone who admittedly is a naive dummy regarding this stuff. You characterize it as 80/20 truth to lies. I'm sure I could spend hours and days researching and come up with plenty of sources that would suggest a different ratio maybe 40/60 or 30/70. When there's so much money at stake sloshing around in these wars the truth becomes very foggy.

You've written elsewhere that Americans are very naive about personal security. As I've said, I have no doubt I am very naive about it. So I have a serious, non-gotcha question for you. What difference does it make to American security if NATO stops at the western edge of Ukraine rather than the eastern edge? How are we going to be safer by having NATO in Ukraine? Russia made it clear that NATO in Ukraine was a red line that they would not allow to be crossed without repercussions. How did it make us safer to keep threatening to cross that line? As far as I can see, it made things less safe, where we are now at the hair-trigger to nuclear war. Would we be materially less safe if NATO had just stopped at the western edge of Ukraine, which by the way is hundreds of miles farther east than what was verbally promised to Russia at the end of the Cold War.
Good luck with the first from credible sources. I'll let the board judge who they are likely getting a more accurate reading of the situation from. At this point I'm pretty sure no matter what I say your response (with more words) is going to be: America bad, Russia good.

On the non-gotcha. I’ll reply with a gotcha. We did stop at the western edge of Ukraine and didn't allow Ukraine to joint NATO. (America bad) Last time I checked the Russians invaded Ukraine (Russia good). If you think that US involvement in training the Ukrainian military to defend itself (America bad) is equivalent to Russia invading (Russia good), well that’s a divide you and I shall never bridge.

You are not trying to be balanced or objective on this topic for whatever reasons. You know that, I know that.

America bad, Russia good. Ok, I think I have it down now. I'll try not to forget.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by vnatale » Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:58 pm

Dieter wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:28 pm

One opinion on what might have happened if NATO hadn’t helped Ukraine

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... rt/672547/


It is excellent. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by jalanlong » Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:01 pm

boglerdude wrote:
Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:08 pm
> for those who contend the American people are all sheep

But of course, SARS2 (which variant is it now?) is just as deadly as we're told. But we can lay that question aside.

My family is like this, they cannot even have the conversation. They refuse to listen to evidence. But to be fair, I'm still in some disbelief at what the government was able to pull off.

I was amazed at how leftists who a year earlier would rail against big pharma for only caring about money and profit and not lives so quickly did an about face and decided that the "free" Covid vaccines were developed with only altruistic intentions and that they needed to be mandated.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by jalanlong » Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:09 pm

Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:35 am


From my experience here’s where there is a problem with the military. We stay WAY too long when things are obviously not going well and the cost benefit analysis of military action has swung to the absolute loss side of the ledger. A weird dynamic occurs…all militaries hate to lose. It’s the ultimate definition of failure. So they are going to suggest “more” ought to “work”. Politically, no one wants to decide to quit because they then get tagged as the loser President forever. So…the try some more military stuff just keeps on going…and going…and going. I thought Afghanistan was never going to end…and now Biden is tagged as the person that blew it. Forever wars are definitely a thing…but when a politician/the president says we’re done here the US military leaves.

One could say that is a fault of government in general. Politicians still pushing failed Covid policies like lockdowns or closing schools 2 years after they started when it was clear early on they made little to no difference and had more negative effects than positive ones. How about the number of politicians still supporting Head Start when every study done has shown it to be a colossal failure (especially when measuring it with the price tag attached)? Of the list of reasons I am for as limited government as possible is that politicians are never likely to reverse course and admit when they are wrong and they have a never ending supply of money that allows them to be wrong in perpetuity.

https://www.cato.org/commentary/head-st ... aste-money
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by Dieter » Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:19 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:58 pm
Dieter wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:28 pm
One opinion on what might have happened if NATO hadn’t helped Ukraine

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... rt/672547/
It is excellent. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.
You’re welcome

Found on a YouTube channel — Preston Stewart

US Army vet / current reservist who covers military topics
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by stuper1 » Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:02 pm

Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:51 pm

You are not trying to be balanced or objective on this topic for whatever reasons. You know that, I know that.
And you are being balanced and objective? Do you ever consider that your experiences in the past may color your opinions currently? Those who think they know everything have stopped learning. That may or may not apply to you. From posts you've made in the past it seems you think that everything Russia does is bad. As if a nation of 150 million people is a screaming horde of homicidal maniacs. They aren't. They are just normal people trying to make their way in a difficult world. This is contrary to everything that Western people have been told in recent years. Russians have had authoritarian leaders for probably 500+ years. That's all they know. Their current authoritarian leader may be worse or better than average. I don't really know whether he is or not, and how he is perceived by most Russians. America is screaming for regime change. Surely you've heard that, right? Plenty of American and other Western leadership types have been saying it. Maybe the next authoritarian leader is even worse than Putin. I know if I was on their side, I would be extremely tired of being pushed around by the West. The main thing they asked for was a buffer zone between them and NATO. Does America get a buffer zone? Isn't that what the Monroe Doctrine is all about? Is America the only powerful country that's allowed to have a buffer zone?
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by Kbg » Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:05 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:09 pm
Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:35 am


From my experience here’s where there is a problem with the military. We stay WAY too long when things are obviously not going well and the cost benefit analysis of military action has swung to the absolute loss side of the ledger. A weird dynamic occurs…all militaries hate to lose. It’s the ultimate definition of failure. So they are going to suggest “more” ought to “work”. Politically, no one wants to decide to quit because they then get tagged as the loser President forever. So…the try some more military stuff just keeps on going…and going…and going. I thought Afghanistan was never going to end…and now Biden is tagged as the person that blew it. Forever wars are definitely a thing…but when a politician/the president says we’re done here the US military leaves.

One could say that is a fault of government in general. Politicians still pushing failed Covid policies like lockdowns or closing schools 2 years after they started when it was clear early on they made little to no difference and had more negative effects than positive ones. How about the number of politicians still supporting Head Start when every study done has shown it to be a colossal failure (especially when measuring it with the price tag attached)? Of the list of reasons I am for as limited government as possible is that politicians are never likely to reverse course and admit when they are wrong and they have a never ending supply of money that allows them to be wrong in perpetuity.

https://www.cato.org/commentary/head-st ... aste-money
It appears we have consensus that continuing failure extends more often that it should. Here's the thing though...our society is so antagonistic, vengeful and unforgiving that why would anyone admit; hey, ya we screwed this one up? Rather than appreciating the acknowledgement of error and facilitating the correction of an error it's a self-inflicted invitation to be a target personally and possibly legally.

I'm getting lost in threads on what was posted where (probably in the twitter thread, I should post less :D ) but anyone who has been in the Federal government I'm sure giggles every time they see someone claiming all big media is thoroughly infiltrated by the government.

My absolute favorite obvious contradiction for right wing conspiracies as a generality is that on one hand, the government is so corrupt and incredibly inept that it can do nothing right. Yet, on the other hand the government is so wickedly brilliant that it can infiltrate and control every aspect of thing X. Oh wait, the first is the government agencies that are public while the second is the deep state. What was I thinking!
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by Kbg » Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:26 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:02 pm
Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:51 pm

You are not trying to be balanced or objective on this topic for whatever reasons. You know that, I know that.
And you are being balanced and objective? Do you ever consider that your experiences in the past may color your opinions currently? Those who think they know everything have stopped learning. That may or may not apply to you. From posts you've made in the past it seems you think that everything Russia does is bad. As if a nation of 150 million people is a screaming horde of homicidal maniacs. They aren't. They are just normal people trying to make their way in a difficult world. This is contrary to everything that Western people have been told in recent years. Russians have had authoritarian leaders for probably 500+ years. That's all they know. Their current authoritarian leader may be worse or better than average. I don't really know whether he is or not, and how he is perceived by most Russians. America is screaming for regime change. Surely you've heard that, right? Plenty of American and other Western leadership types have been saying it. Maybe the next authoritarian leader is even worse than Putin. I know if I was on their side, I would be extremely tired of being pushed around by the West. The main thing they asked for was a buffer zone between them and NATO. Does America get a buffer zone? Isn't that what the Monroe Doctrine is all about? Is America the only powerful country that's allowed to have a buffer zone?
I'm not anti Russian people. My take on everyone is that they are good and want to do and be good unless they prove else wise. That's my default setting on people. Anyone who has read as much about Russia and Russians as I have can do nothing but feel sorrow and empathy for them. Their courage and ability to deal with hardship is legendary and for good reason. Their 19th and 20th century literature is amongst the best on the planet.

And on the other hand...by and large Russian governments since 1917 have been an unmitigated disaster foisted on the world at large. <<< Here is my experience and bias

Explain how a Russian buffer zone is to be administered? Are the people entitled to free and fair elections with the Russian government respecting governments that may not be pro-Russian? Since WW2, who has attacked the Russian homeland that was an external power? Is the world's largest arsenal of tactical and strategic nuclear weapons not sufficient to guarantee core Russian territories? How big does the Russian buffer zone need to be for Russians to feel "secure?" What exactly was it about Ukraine that made Russians feel insecure?

Since the end of Soviet-American Cold War hot/proxy/clandestine wars around the globe, what is the American buffer zone? How has the American buffer zone been enforced? Why did the US give back the Panama canal to the Panamanian people...clearly that's a geo-strategic asset that would be critical to any buffer zone? If a buffer zone was enforced post cold war, what is that country like now? What is the level of continued American involvement? If the US is still there or no longer there, why?

For the countries the US and Russia occupied during the Cold War, which countries that the US occupied remain close US allies? For those occupied by Russia, which ones remain close allies? Why is the record such that it is? What has been the economic growth and prosperity achieved under the respective countries tutelage and after its tutelage?

Appreciate the buffer zone argument, I really do. It works as a shallow bumper sticker. I await your comparison with details and analysis as to the differences.

Let's simplify all of this...there was real hope and good will between the end of the Cold War and 1999. 1999 changed everything. Unfortunately for Russia's people, it is not the rest of the world's problem another Tsar sits on the throne and he's feeling insecure. Too bad for him and his people he seriously misjudged the Ukrainian people and European/US support for them. Maybe the latest Tsar will get overthrown and the hopes of 1917 and 1991 will hit a home run the third time at bat.

Hope springs eternal.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by SilentMajority » Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:31 pm

Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:05 pm


My absolute favorite obvious contradiction for right wing conspiracies as a generality is that on one hand, the government is so corrupt and incredibly inept that it can do nothing right. Yet, on the other hand the government is so wickedly brilliant that it can infiltrate and control every aspect of thing X. Oh wait, the first is the government agencies that are public while the second is the deep state. What was I thinking!
I have to agree. There is no way an organization can be as incompetent as the government appears to be. It must be a deliberate program designed to hurt the American people and rob them. Of course like any org they're going to have their fair share of bafoons and incompetents.

It's probably fair to assume the government attracts more corrupt people than actual companies because of the power offered, or more incompetent people because they don't actually need to produce value.

But I agree. It can't be as diabolical and destructive as it is thorough incompetence alone. It must be thoroughly corrupt.

The real head scratcher is why some people support it no matter what.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by stuper1 » Fri Dec 23, 2022 9:32 pm

Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 8:26 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:02 pm
Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:51 pm

You are not trying to be balanced or objective on this topic for whatever reasons. You know that, I know that.
And you are being balanced and objective? Do you ever consider that your experiences in the past may color your opinions currently? Those who think they know everything have stopped learning. That may or may not apply to you. From posts you've made in the past it seems you think that everything Russia does is bad. As if a nation of 150 million people is a screaming horde of homicidal maniacs. They aren't. They are just normal people trying to make their way in a difficult world. This is contrary to everything that Western people have been told in recent years. Russians have had authoritarian leaders for probably 500+ years. That's all they know. Their current authoritarian leader may be worse or better than average. I don't really know whether he is or not, and how he is perceived by most Russians. America is screaming for regime change. Surely you've heard that, right? Plenty of American and other Western leadership types have been saying it. Maybe the next authoritarian leader is even worse than Putin. I know if I was on their side, I would be extremely tired of being pushed around by the West. The main thing they asked for was a buffer zone between them and NATO. Does America get a buffer zone? Isn't that what the Monroe Doctrine is all about? Is America the only powerful country that's allowed to have a buffer zone?
I'm not anti Russian people. My take on everyone is that they are good and want to do and be good unless they prove else wise. That's my default setting on people. Anyone who has read as much about Russia and Russians as I have can do nothing but feel sorrow and empathy for them. Their courage and ability to deal with hardship is legendary and for good reason. Their 19th and 20th century literature is amongst the best on the planet.

And on the other hand...by and large Russian governments since 1917 have been an unmitigated disaster foisted on the world at large. <<< Here is my experience and bias

Explain how a Russian buffer zone is to be administered? Are the people entitled to free and fair elections with the Russian government respecting governments that may not be pro-Russian? Since WW2, who has attacked the Russian homeland that was an external power? Is the world's largest arsenal of tactical and strategic nuclear weapons not sufficient to guarantee core Russian territories? How big does the Russian buffer zone need to be for Russians to feel "secure?" What exactly was it about Ukraine that made Russians feel insecure?

Since the end of Soviet-American Cold War hot/proxy/clandestine wars around the globe, what is the American buffer zone? How has the American buffer zone been enforced? Why did the US give back the Panama canal to the Panamanian people...clearly that's a geo-strategic asset that would be critical to any buffer zone? If a buffer zone was enforced post cold war, what is that country like now? What is the level of continued American involvement? If the US is still there or no longer there, why?

For the countries the US and Russia occupied during the Cold War, which countries that the US occupied remain close US allies? For those occupied by Russia, which ones remain close allies? Why is the record such that it is? What has been the economic growth and prosperity achieved under the respective countries tutelage and after its tutelage?

Appreciate the buffer zone argument, I really do. It works as a shallow bumper sticker. I await your comparison with details and analysis as to the differences.

Let's simplify all of this...there was real hope and good will between the end of the Cold War and 1999. 1999 changed everything. Unfortunately for Russia's people, it is not the rest of the world's problem another Tsar sits on the throne and he's feeling insecure. Too bad for him and his people he seriously misjudged the Ukrainian people and European/US support for them. Maybe the latest Tsar will get overthrown and the hopes of 1917 and 1991 will hit a home run the third time at bat.

Hope springs eternal.
I think the mistake you make is to think this is just Putin's war. He may be Tsar, but he's a post-1917 Tsar, not a pre-1917 Tsar, so he understands that ultimately he has to do a good job for the Russian people or else he'll end up dead like Nicholas II. I suspect the reason Ukraine is such a hot-button issue for Russia is that the Russian people behind Putin aren't happy to see NATO pushed into Ukraine. The Russian people can't like being pushed around by the West and who can blame them? I know I wouldn't like it if I were them. If Putin doesn't do something, then he risks being forced out and replaced by somebody who will do something. Or maybe it's not the majority of the Russian people, maybe it's just a majority of the military and/or other leadership class. I'm not privy directly to things discussed in Russia even though it probably sounds like I think I am based on my silly postings on this forum.

I truly don't understand why the Russians have such a fixation on Ukraine, but I've heard it said by many credible people such as John Matlock, Jeffrey Sachs, Jeff Deist, and others including Putin. I take that as a given. They don't want foreign interference in Ukraine. They've said as much many times. How would we react if China was meddling in Canadian elections in such a way as to install an anti-American government? Do you deny that the US has been meddling in Ukrainian politics for the last 8+ years?

George Kennan and many, many others warned against expanding NATO to the east. You say, aha, but we haven't expanded NATO into Ukraine, so how can the Russians complain? Well, of course, the problem is that if they wait until Ukraine has actually signed the paperwork and is inside of NATO, then all of the security guarantees kick in, and now if Russian even steps one foot inside Ukraine to defend one culturally Russian person who is being mistreated by Zelensky, then the full force of NATO will be brought to bear, meaning not just arms but also troops as well. At this point, it's probably just a matter of time anyway before NATO troops are openly inside Ukraine. If things go poorly for the Ukrainian army in the coming months, Biden will find some excuse to send American troops in. Biden certainly won't want to look weak. Would you put it past Zelensky to say explode a dirty bomb on his own soil, or do a gas attack, and claim the Russians did it? I suspect now there are already plenty of Western people operating as private contractors inside Ukraine anyway, so it's all basically a facade or a charade to say that NATO and Russia aren't already at war.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by jalanlong » Fri Dec 23, 2022 10:02 pm

Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:05 pm
[
My absolute favorite obvious contradiction for right wing conspiracies as a generality is that on one hand, the government is so corrupt and incredibly inept that it can do nothing right. Yet, on the other hand the government is so wickedly brilliant that it can infiltrate and control every aspect of thing X. Oh wait, the first is the government agencies that are public while the second is the deep state. What was I thinking!
I would not label myself as a conspiracy theorist, although I am certain Joe Biden, Rachael Maddow and my family in Los Angeles would call me one. I do not, however, believe that politicians are inept.

Take my example of Head Start as a case study. Do Presidents, politicians, and George Soros sit around in a room with a grand plan of how to divert millions of dollars into a failed program? Of course not. But what you do have are some politicians who are predisposed to believe in the theory of early education and the cause of something as high minded and well intentioned as Head Start. Throw in some Edu-crats who get funneled a lot of money and gainful employment from the program, together with the Democrat constituency of teachers and school union workers who will vote for anyone who promotes more money for such programs and you have a recipe for a boondoggle that will never end. Is it a conspiracy? I would prefer to call it a confluence of like minded individuals with similar interests.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by Kbg » Sat Dec 24, 2022 12:22 am

J,

At least in my experience what you described is how a lot of government things occur. You forgot to add the constituents who benefit and sometimes these groups are massive and expect what they want is what is provided. That’s why they vote for it/them.

For example, social security and Medicare are NEVER going away…and the voters want it that way.

The government is us…if it is corrupt we are corrupt.

Stuper, we’re done. There’s no further point to our discussion. We do agree on one thing, it will be decided on the battlefield.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by vnatale » Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:00 am

Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:05 pm


It appears we have consensus that continuing failure extends more often that it should. Here's the thing though...our society is so antagonistic, vengeful and unforgiving that why would anyone admit; hey, ya we screwed this one up? Rather than appreciating the acknowledgement of error and facilitating the correction of an error it's a self-inflicted invitation to be a target personally and possibly legally.

I'm getting lost in threads on what was posted where (probably in the twitter thread, I should post less :D ) but anyone who has been in the Federal government I'm sure giggles every time they see someone claiming all big media is thoroughly infiltrated by the government.

My absolute favorite obvious contradiction for right wing conspiracies as a generality is that on one hand, the government is so corrupt and incredibly inept that it can do nothing right. Yet, on the other hand the government is so wickedly brilliant that it can infiltrate and control every aspect of thing X. Oh wait, the first is the government agencies that are public while the second is the deep state. What was I thinking!


Totally agree on that one!
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by flyingpylon » Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:19 am

vnatale wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:00 am
Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:05 pm
My absolute favorite obvious contradiction for right wing conspiracies as a generality is that on one hand, the government is so corrupt and incredibly inept that it can do nothing right. Yet, on the other hand the government is so wickedly brilliant that it can infiltrate and control every aspect of thing X. Oh wait, the first is the government agencies that are public while the second is the deep state. What was I thinking!
Totally agree on that one!
It doesn't make sense because it's a gross oversimplification of what most people are saying.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by jalanlong » Sat Dec 24, 2022 12:54 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:19 am
vnatale wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:00 am
Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:05 pm
My absolute favorite obvious contradiction for right wing conspiracies as a generality is that on one hand, the government is so corrupt and incredibly inept that it can do nothing right. Yet, on the other hand the government is so wickedly brilliant that it can infiltrate and control every aspect of thing X. Oh wait, the first is the government agencies that are public while the second is the deep state. What was I thinking!
Totally agree on that one!
It doesn't make sense because it's a gross oversimplification of what most people are saying.
It certainly is. Government is not inept. Nor is it full of brilliant scholars. It is full of people of decidedly average intelligence who have delusions of grandeur and more power than they are equipped to handle.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by stuper1 » Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:10 pm

One thing that has come up several times in this discussion, and certainly in my own mind, is why do the Russians see Ukraine as uniquely important? Why didn't they make a big fuss when Estonia and Latvia, which also border Russia, joined NATO?

I thought about this a bit more last night and finally have a working theory. It may not be 100% right; it may not even be 50% right; but I think it's possibly at least 20% right and has at least a kernel of truth to it.

The basic idea is that Ukraine is meant to be not just a military buffer zone but also a cultural buffer zone.

You may or may not know that Russia isn't totally on board with the LGBTQ+, gay-marriage, transgenderism, etc. movement in the West. That's an understatement actually. From what little I've read, many Russians don't like the movement much. Now, as I understand it this doesn't mean that same-sex-attracted (SSA) people in Russia are thrown in jail. It just means they don't flaunt it in people's faces. It's probably something like the USA was prior to say 2000 or thereabouts (or maybe 1980; I don't really know, but something like that). I mean yeah you could get killed in Wyoming for being a drag queen back then, which I'm sure nobody on here likes, but for the most part if you wanted to be involved in SSA stuff, nobody really cared too much.

My theory is that Russia doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO and get sucked closer into the West's orbit because then culturally they will start leaning Westward and given the close contacts between Russian people who have uncles, cousins, etc. living in Ukraine, then the degenerate Western culture will start seeping faster into Russia. I'm sure the degenerate culture is already seeping in somewhat, but conservative Russians would probably like to see it slowed down as much as possible.

Anywho, that's my theory. I'm sure it's not perfect. I'm sure some will scoff at it. That's fine. Tell me your theory on why Russia sees it as much more important for Ukraine to not join NATO than they saw for Estonia or Latvia. Most likely, even if my theory is somewhat correct, it's only part of the story, and maybe a minor part, and there are other factors at play which I don't understand yet.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by stuper1 » Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:11 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 12:54 pm
flyingpylon wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:19 am
vnatale wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:00 am
Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:05 pm
My absolute favorite obvious contradiction for right wing conspiracies as a generality is that on one hand, the government is so corrupt and incredibly inept that it can do nothing right. Yet, on the other hand the government is so wickedly brilliant that it can infiltrate and control every aspect of thing X. Oh wait, the first is the government agencies that are public while the second is the deep state. What was I thinking!
Totally agree on that one!
It doesn't make sense because it's a gross oversimplification of what most people are saying.
It certainly is. Government is not inept. Nor is it full of brilliant scholars. It is full of people of decidedly average intelligence who have delusions of grandeur and more power than they are equipped to handle.
I think there are large parts of ineptness in the government, and then there are small pockets of highly capable people who, if they have bad intentions, can take advantage of the larger ineptness for their own bad purposes.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by jalanlong » Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:26 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 1:11 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 12:54 pm
flyingpylon wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:19 am
vnatale wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:00 am
Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:05 pm
My absolute favorite obvious contradiction for right wing conspiracies as a generality is that on one hand, the government is so corrupt and incredibly inept that it can do nothing right. Yet, on the other hand the government is so wickedly brilliant that it can infiltrate and control every aspect of thing X. Oh wait, the first is the government agencies that are public while the second is the deep state. What was I thinking!
Totally agree on that one!
It doesn't make sense because it's a gross oversimplification of what most people are saying.
It certainly is. Government is not inept. Nor is it full of brilliant scholars. It is full of people of decidedly average intelligence who have delusions of grandeur and more power than they are equipped to handle.
I think there are large parts of ineptness in the government, and then there are small pockets of highly capable people who, if they have bad intentions, can take advantage of the larger ineptness for their own bad purposes.
We are probably picking nits but I don't know if it is ineptness or just people who are not qualified for the position. Joe Biden is a man of average intelligence as shown by the fact that he was in the bottom third of his class at law school. He would probably be a fine middle manager at some non-descript corporation. But he is certainly not smart enough for a person in his current position. Those capable people you described are taking advantage of his averageness and the fact that he is way underqualified to make the kind of decisions he has to make. You could have said the same about Bush Jr. as well. I hesitate to use the word inept because that allows people (like some in this thread) to dismiss my ideas by saying nobody that dumb could be where they are at and could dream up the kind of things of which you accuse them...
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by vnatale » Sat Dec 24, 2022 5:44 pm

flyingpylon wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:19 am

vnatale wrote:
Sat Dec 24, 2022 8:00 am

Kbg wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 7:05 pm

My absolute favorite obvious contradiction for right wing conspiracies as a generality is that on one hand, the government is so corrupt and incredibly inept that it can do nothing right. Yet, on the other hand the government is so wickedly brilliant that it can infiltrate and control every aspect of thing X. Oh wait, the first is the government agencies that are public while the second is the deep state. What was I thinking!


Totally agree on that one!


It doesn't make sense because it's a gross oversimplification of what most people are saying.


What is the more full, complicated version of what most people are saying?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Dec 26, 2022 3:39 pm

glennds wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:24 pm
DogBreath wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:40 pm
Dieter wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:28 pm
One opinion on what might have happened if NATO hadn’t helped Ukraine

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... rt/672547/
Yes, and the Atlantic is a credible, non-biased publication.
That might be, sarcasm noted. But the article author Anne Applebaum is a well regarded historian in addition to being a journalist. She's dedicated a good chunk of her professional career to the history of Central Europe, Eastern Europe, Communism and specifically Poland. Her husband is Poland's former Defense Minister. She won the Pulitzer for non-fiction for her book on the history of the Soviet Gulag system.

Not to say she couldn't be wrong, but her credentials are better than yours or mine Pug, so maybe worth consideration?
The article is intended to persuade the reader, so of course it's biased. She may be a historian, but this article isn't a credible historical piece like maybe some of her books are, it's largely nonsensical emoting. I was hoping for a quality essay, but every paragraph contains faulty logic, a mis-reading of military events, or just simple gaslighting.

I checked out her wiki, and scrolling down the page it looks like she wrote some books early in her career that might be interesting. But then you get to her post-2017 writing, and it's clear that she was afflicted with severe Trump Derangement Syndrome at about that time. But still, I thought the "100 years later, Bolshevism is back. And we should be worried" article might be interesting. I could see she had TDS, but seeing her dig into the Bolshevik tendencies of leftists like Occupy Wall Street (& the CHOP and other "occupations), antifa, and some of the politicians that were coming onto the scene around then would be interesting if from nothing but a balance perspective. So I gave it a read. For half the article you're seeing her describe modern leftism, but in the end SPOILER ALERT IT'S TRUMP. ::) ::) ::) ::) ::) ;D ;D ;D
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by stuper1 » Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:08 pm

Big surprise there. You basically can't get published in a place like the Atlantic unless you show your fealty to leftist globalists with your virtue signaling by bashing Trump.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by jalanlong » Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:50 am

stuper1 wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:08 pm
Big surprise there. You basically can't get published in a place like the Atlantic unless you show your fealty to leftist globalists with your virtue signaling by bashing Trump.
https://www.allsides.com/news-source/atlantic

The Atlantic gets a pretty strong "Left" bias rating from Allsides. Unfortunately that is true for most of what we would call "mainstream" outlets, save a few.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by vnatale » Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:01 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 11:50 am

stuper1 wrote:
Mon Dec 26, 2022 4:08 pm

Big surprise there. You basically can't get published in a place like the Atlantic unless you show your fealty to leftist globalists with your virtue signaling by bashing Trump.


https://www.allsides.com/news-source/atlantic

The Atlantic gets a pretty strong "Left" bias rating from Allsides. Unfortunately that is true for most of what we would call "mainstream" outlets, save a few.


From here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AllSides

....it seems that Allsides itself is a non-biased source.

I was going to ask you where to find something like this;

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (109.57 KiB) Viewed 21649 times


Do others agree with the placement of all the media sources?

However, it does seem to be a major omission that it does not include what is in Print, Radio, TV .... only online content?
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:57 pm

Blaze is definitely left leaning. 😉
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: West Provokes Russia to Protect Russians in Ukraine

Post by vnatale » Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:49 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Tue Dec 27, 2022 3:57 pm

Blaze is definitely left leaning. 😉


That is a jump of three categories!
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