What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Discussion of the Bond portion of the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
Maddy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1694
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:43 am

What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by Maddy » Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:24 pm

I can't help noticing how many people on this forum are parking a portion of their cash in i-bonds. These are 20-year bonds, right?

I'm trying to think through what would happen to an i-bond purchased today at a relatively high rate of interest if rates suddenly plummeted and the Fed went back into QE mode. You'd have the right to redeem your bond at the price you paid for it, wouldn't you? Am I correct in thinking that the worst possible outcome in this scenario that you'd forfeit the last three months of interest?
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4392
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by Xan » Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:39 pm

Maddy wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:24 pm
I can't help noticing how many people on this forum are parking a portion of their cash in i-bonds. These are 20-year bonds, right?

I'm trying to think through what would happen to an i-bond purchased today at a relatively high rate of interest if rates suddenly plummeted and the Fed went back into QE mode. You'd have the right to redeem your bond at the price you paid for it, wouldn't you? Am I correct in thinking that the worst possible outcome in this scenario that you'd forfeit the last three months of interest?

Not at the price you paid for it, but at the price you paid plus all the interest that has accumulated. If you've had it less than five years you forfeit three months' worth of interest. I'm not 100% clear on which three months that is. And of course you don't have the option to cash it out at all until you've held it one year.

These are called "bonds" but they're really much more like cash. The value does not go up and down with interest rates as bonds do.
boglerdude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1313
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:40 am
Contact:

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by boglerdude » Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:59 pm

For example, If they cut the rate to 0 (and your fixed rate is 0) wait three more months and when you sell you'd lose 0. Correct me if I'm wrong
User avatar
Maddy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1694
Joined: Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:43 am

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by Maddy » Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:16 pm

boglerdude wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:59 pm
For example, If they cut the rate to 0 (and your fixed rate is 0) wait three more months and when you sell you'd lose 0. Correct me if I'm wrong
That's actually very clever. I keep looking for the catch.
User avatar
Dieter
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 655
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2012 10:51 am

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by Dieter » Mon Feb 06, 2023 9:48 pm

Maddy wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 7:16 pm
boglerdude wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 6:59 pm
For example, If they cut the rate to 0 (and your fixed rate is 0) wait three more months and when you sell you'd lose 0. Correct me if I'm wrong
That's actually very clever. I keep looking for the catch.
Ditto — ones I can think of:

* maybe the opportunity cost vs what the could get when take out? (Might have to do math! 🙂)

* can only put 10k in per year (yes, exceptions)

So, if inflation goes up again, can’t get much money in quickly


It will be interesting to see what happens with the fixed rate portion over time as short term rates keep going up
boglerdude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1313
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:40 am
Contact:

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by boglerdude » Tue Feb 07, 2023 12:04 am

Its pretty easy to create an EIN and make a 2nd account. also fyi

"Treasury does not actually post the interest accrued into the account, even if only for viewing purposes, due to the ‘3 month penalty’ rule for holding the security for less than 5 years. According to the Rep, this is on a rolling calendar basis and the most current 3 months of interest will NEVER show in the account, until the ‘held for 5 years’ criteria is met."
https://obliviousinvestor.com/investing ... confusion/
barrett
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1982
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:54 pm

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by barrett » Tue Feb 07, 2023 5:39 am

Maddy wrote:
Mon Feb 06, 2023 12:24 pm
I can't help noticing how many people on this forum are parking a portion of their cash in i-bonds. These are 20-year bonds, right?

I'm trying to think through what would happen to an i-bond purchased today at a relatively high rate of interest if rates suddenly plummeted and the Fed went back into QE mode. You'd have the right to redeem your bond at the price you paid for it, wouldn't you? Am I correct in thinking that the worst possible outcome in this scenario that you'd forfeit the last three months of interest?
1) You have to hold for at least one year but I-bonds keep earning interest (assuming the fixed rate and inflation component are not both 0%) for a full 30 years, not 20.

2) No one really knows what the next fixed rate will be on 5/1/23 but the composite rate is likely to be quite a bit lower than the current 6.48% simply because inflation has been so low since July. The 5/1/23 inflation component will be based on what total inflation is from 10/1/22 to 3/31/23 based on the CPI-U. See this chart:

https://www.bls.gov/regions/mid-atlanti ... _table.htm

3) If you buy anytime before the 5/1/23 reset, you'll earn that 6.48% annualized yield for months 4-9 and then a different - probably lower - rate for months 10-12. You could then cash them out or continue to hold if you choose to do so. Important to note that you'd see zero interest for the first three months.

4) Many investors were flocking to I-Bonds in 2021 and the first 10 months of 2022 because they were a screaming deal compared to any other safe investment. There was a six-month period when they were yielding 9.62% and that really got people's attention. As of this morning I see that one-year Treasuries are yielding 4.9% so there's at least one obvious option to I-Bonds that doesn't require going further down the risk scale. Just keep in mind that I-Bonds will NEVER go down in price while the price of one-year Treasuries will bounce around from minute to minute during trading hours. So, for a fair comparison between I-Bonds & Treasuries, you have to assume that the Treasuries would be held to maturity.

If I've gotten anything wrong, someone will correct what I've written.
welderwannabe
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Jul 20, 2019 12:53 pm

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by welderwannabe » Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:56 pm

Nothing wrong with the above, except I'd add that ibonds are tax deferred which also adds to their benefits.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4392
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by Xan » Fri Feb 10, 2023 5:13 pm

welderwannabe wrote:
Fri Feb 10, 2023 3:56 pm
Nothing wrong with the above, except I'd add that ibonds are tax deferred which also adds to their benefits.

Plus they can be used, tax-free, to pay for higher education. Like a 529 but more flexible. There is an income limit on that, though, IIRC.
User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by sophie » Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:50 am

Maddy, a few more corrections to your understanding of Series I bonds....

First, they are 30 year bonds in which all interest is tax-deferred until either you cash in the bond, or the bond matures (at 30 years). That itself is incredibly useful, as it's effectively an extension of a traditional IRA to which you make non-deductible contributions and use the proceeds to invest in cash. And, there are no RMDs.

Unlike tips or long treasuries, the value of the bond can never drop, because the interest rate can't fall below zero. So it's entirely safe. Yes, you can lose the last 3 months of interest if you sell the bond before 5 years, but if you have been steadily buying them you should always have a bond more than 5 years old to sell. I would preferentially sell the ones with the lowest fixed rates. Good trick to pick a time when the composite interest rates for the past 3 months are low (or zero).

There are only two catches. First, your money is locked up for the first year, and there is no escape hatch. Second, your purchases are limited to $15,000 a year ($10K via Treasury Direct, another $5K from your tax refund to buy paper bonds.) You can reduce the lockup time a bit by buying near the end of a month, i.e. if you buy on January 30th your bond will be considered to have been purchased on January 1 - giving you almost an extra month of free interest.

These really are the best free lunch there is in investing.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by vnatale » Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:55 am

One important item to add here is that buying the $10,000 limit direct from Treasury Direct is a given.

However, buying that other $5,000 via your tax refund can be highly problematical.

I'm only one for three in successfully doing that. The other two times the IRS sent me back $5,000 refunds rather than buying the iBonds.

I believe that others here have stated similar problems to what I've experienced.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4392
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by Xan » Sun Feb 19, 2023 2:14 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:55 am
One important item to add here is that buying the $10,000 limit direct from Treasury Direct is a given.

However, buying that other $5,000 via your tax refund can be highly problematical.

I'm only one for three in successfully doing that. The other two times the IRS sent me back $5,000 refunds rather than buying the iBonds.

I believe that others here have stated similar problems to what I've experienced.

I'm 0-for-3. The first two times were my mistake (sort of), and that illustrates that things can be finicky. The last time was the IRS just screwing up. There was no recourse.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by vnatale » Sun Feb 19, 2023 2:28 pm

Xan wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 2:14 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sun Feb 19, 2023 8:55 am

One important item to add here is that buying the $10,000 limit direct from Treasury Direct is a given.

However, buying that other $5,000 via your tax refund can be highly problematical.

I'm only one for three in successfully doing that. The other two times the IRS sent me back $5,000 refunds rather than buying the iBonds.

I believe that others here have stated similar problems to what I've experienced.



I'm 0-for-3. The first two times were my mistake (sort of), and that illustrates that things can be finicky. The last time was the IRS just screwing up. There was no recourse.


Yes, first time seemed to be my error as when I was completing the form the second around and reviewing the first time I thought I'd saw where I'd made an error on that form.

I thought it'd be smooth sailing for the third time around since I'd been successful on the second try and I replicated on the third attempt what I'd done on the second (successful) try.

Ended up being shocked when instead of buying $5,000 of iBonds I again received that $5,000 refund.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
ochotona
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3353
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:54 am

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by ochotona » Mon Apr 10, 2023 10:56 am

I think if I-Bonds rates keep going down, I'll stop buying them. I have 5% of my portfolio in them, it's getting be be enough I think. I don't mind receiving my tax refund as I-Bonds.
User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by sophie » Thu Apr 13, 2023 3:38 pm

I've got a big slug of cash in I Bonds, built up slowly over the years. I just bought them automatically each year, and then this past year - jackpot. The returns are still way better than anything else right now, including stocks. And....tax deferred!

You don't buy these for their current interest rate return. You buy them for the long haul (30 years), and for the tax deferral. Maybe there will be continued inflation, or maybe not. Maybe inflation will recede, then spike up again 5 years from now. You simply can't predict. I will note though, that they have always shown a better return than T bills, and they generally beat the pants off of CDs too.

FWIW I wouldn't bet just yet on inflation going away. That seems overly optimistic to me.
Kevin K.
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 516
Joined: Mon Apr 26, 2010 2:37 pm

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by Kevin K. » Fri Apr 14, 2023 9:47 am

By far the best source of information and advice on iBonds and TIPS is the TipsWatch site, which I recommend subscribing to (or at least bookmarking). Here's the most recent post:

https://tipswatch.com/2023/04/14/i-bond ... uy-at-all/
boglerdude
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1313
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 1:40 am
Contact:

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by boglerdude » Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:11 am

When to sell: https://www.doctorofcredit.com/212507-2/

From the comments:
"Trying to understand this logic and think through the math. Assuming you sell your i bond before 5 years, you have to pay a penalty of the last 3 months interest. so let’s look at a sample 6 month period. For the first 3 months you earn 3.4% APY, but you pay a 3-month penalty when you sell, so effectively you earn 0% APY that first 3 months. Then in the next 3 months after selling, you earn 5% APY in a high yield savings acct. Your average rate over the 6 months would be (0+5 / 2) = 2.5% APY. But if you just hold the i bond for the whole 6 months you would have made 3.4% APY over that same period. So, isn’t it safe to say that you should NOT sell the ibond and take the 3-month penalty hit until you are sure that in the immediate next 3 months, you can earn at least double the interest penalty (for example, earn 6.8% APY or higher in this case)?
Then again, maybe I am misthinking this. Because, if you sell after the first 3 months and then earn 5% the next 3 months, you take a hit. But then, you are at 5% APY again to start the next 6 months, rather than being still in the lower i bond rate,.. not sure."

http://eyebonds.info/ibonds/index.html
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 02, 2023 7:05 am

Kevin K. wrote:
Fri Apr 14, 2023 9:47 am

By far the best source of information and advice on iBonds and TIPS is the TipsWatch site, which I recommend subscribing to (or at least bookmarking). Here's the most recent post:

https://tipswatch.com/2023/04/14/i-bond ... uy-at-all/


Totally agree.

I am priming myself to make large purchases of both nominal treasuries and TIPS. Am studying all that is on this tremendous website.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 02, 2023 7:07 am

boglerdude wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2023 2:11 am

When to sell: https://www.doctorofcredit.com/212507-2/

From the comments:
"Trying to understand this logic and think through the math. Assuming you sell your i bond before 5 years, you have to pay a penalty of the last 3 months interest. so let’s look at a sample 6 month period. For the first 3 months you earn 3.4% APY, but you pay a 3-month penalty when you sell, so effectively you earn 0% APY that first 3 months. Then in the next 3 months after selling, you earn 5% APY in a high yield savings acct. Your average rate over the 6 months would be (0+5 / 2) = 2.5% APY. But if you just hold the i bond for the whole 6 months you would have made 3.4% APY over that same period. So, isn’t it safe to say that you should NOT sell the ibond and take the 3-month penalty hit until you are sure that in the immediate next 3 months, you can earn at least double the interest penalty (for example, earn 6.8% APY or higher in this case)?
Then again, maybe I am misthinking this. Because, if you sell after the first 3 months and then earn 5% the next 3 months, you take a hit. But then, you are at 5% APY again to start the next 6 months, rather than being still in the lower i bond rate,.. not sure."

http://eyebonds.info/ibonds/index.html


I could never understand ever selling iBonds. Because they are about the only investment that you are severely limited in how much of them you can invest in on an annual basis .... it takes forever to accumulate an appreciable amount of them.

If you have a portfolio of any size and are just starting with them they remain merely a fringe fraction of your portfolio until you have been at it for years on end acquiring them. Therefore once you own them you should hold on to them until maturity.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
snedgar
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:52 pm

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by snedgar » Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:51 am

This is what I thought as well, and was exactly what I was doing.

However, after hearing multiple horror stories of executors struggling to unwind estates, I am working to streamline my investments. One of the elements to be simplified is to liquidate both my and my wife's TD accounts and just move those funds into TBills in our already existent brokerage account.

I would value any contrary counsel from the brain trust on my logic.

Thanks
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:58 am

snedgar wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:51 am

This is what I thought as well, and was exactly what I was doing.

However, after hearing multiple horror stories of executors struggling to unwind estates, I am working to streamline my investments. One of the elements to be simplified is to liquidate both my and my wife's TD accounts and just move those funds into TBills in our already existent brokerage account.

I would value any contrary counsel from the brain trust on my logic.

Thanks


Being able to competently handle one's financial affairs as one ages is definitely a legitimate concern.

Was just discussing this yesterday with someone who he and his wife are both in their early 80s.

Whether he wanted to continue to self-manage his investments or whether the time is now or near to have a professional assist.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1959
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by sophie » Sat Aug 05, 2023 10:32 am

There's nothing wrong with simplification, especially if it means your DPOA will have an easier time managing your finances after you're no longer able to do so.

This is a different issue from the idea of maximizing interest though. Keep in mind that T bills will also require some managing, so you may consider taking it a step further and plowing your cash into a treasury only money market fund, and using target date or balanced funds for your stock/bond assets. Honestly, if you're trying to make life easy on yourself and your DPOA, your better bet may be to hire a financial advisor who can be authorized to make transactions on your behalf. The fee you pay the advisor may be well worth it if it allows you to get higher investment returns.

You should also be doing things like designating beneficiaries and making formal arrangements for your DPOA to get access to your bank & brokerage accounts. They typically don't just accept a copy of the DPOA document, they have their own process which can require a lot of paperwork. (And btw if you don't have a dpoa...do that asap!).

One more thing about I Bonds compared to bank savings accounts: if you live in a state with income tax, the I bond interest will not be subject to it. The bank interest however, is. That greatly adds to the attractiveness of both I Bonds and T Bills in my case.
snedgar
Full Member
Full Member
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2019 1:52 pm

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by snedgar » Sun Aug 06, 2023 2:42 pm

Thank you, Sophie.

I highly value your input.
barrett
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1982
Joined: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:54 pm

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by barrett » Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:50 am

snedgar wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:51 am
This is what I thought as well, and was exactly what I was doing.

However, after hearing multiple horror stories of executors struggling to unwind estates, I am working to streamline my investments. One of the elements to be simplified is to liquidate both my and my wife's TD accounts and just move those funds into TBills in our already existent brokerage account.

I would value any contrary counsel from the brain trust on my logic.

Thanks
Without knowing the details of your situation, I would come down on the side of simplification over optimization. I am also planning on redeeming and either reinvesting or just spending down the $66,000 or so of I-Bonds that we have at Treasury Direct. While there's no immediate need to do so, these are on my mental list of "funds available for living expenses". I should add that I am in my spend-down phase while my wife is still accumulating for another couple of years.

I also find it helpful to think in rough dollar numbers, even though to do so requires a few assumptions. So, in our case, I can just estimate what we *might* earn on $66,000 of I-Bonds over the next X amount of time versus what we *might* earn on T-Bills. For a short time period (say, a couple of years), I can probably make a decent approximation of what those I-Bonds will earn versus what a two-year Treasury would earn (while also taking into account what we would pay in federal taxes on $6,000 of gains on the I-Bonds).

If the dollar difference is a few hundred bucks, then simplification wins out, at least for me.

In our case a short-term Treasury-only fund might make sense for us down the line. The most complicated looking thing over all of our accounts are the T-Bill and TIPS ladders that I have set up in my Fidelity brokerage account. There are five rungs for the TIPS ladder and four rungs for the T-Bill ladder. But Fidelity doesn't have a way to split these two ladders out so that one reads "TIPS ladder" and the other "T-Bill ladder". So I just see nine fixed income positions in a random order. While not ideal, this is fine for me now that my brain still functions OK and I am not yet dead. But I'd hate to think of my wife trying to sort this out if/when I pre-decease her.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: What happens to I-bonds if rates plummet again

Post by vnatale » Mon Aug 07, 2023 11:40 am

barrett wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2023 10:50 am

snedgar wrote:
Wed Aug 02, 2023 9:51 am

This is what I thought as well, and was exactly what I was doing.

However, after hearing multiple horror stories of executors struggling to unwind estates, I am working to streamline my investments. One of the elements to be simplified is to liquidate both my and my wife's TD accounts and just move those funds into TBills in our already existent brokerage account.

I would value any contrary counsel from the brain trust on my logic.

Thanks


Without knowing the details of your situation, I would come down on the side of simplification over optimization. I am also planning on redeeming and either reinvesting or just spending down the $66,000 or so of I-Bonds that we have at Treasury Direct. While there's no immediate need to do so, these are on my mental list of "funds available for living expenses". I should add that I am in my spend-down phase while my wife is still accumulating for another couple of years.

I also find it helpful to think in rough dollar numbers, even though to do so requires a few assumptions. So, in our case, I can just estimate what we *might* earn on $66,000 of I-Bonds over the next X amount of time versus what we *might* earn on T-Bills. For a short time period (say, a couple of years), I can probably make a decent approximation of what those I-Bonds will earn versus what a two-year Treasury would earn (while also taking into account what we would pay in federal taxes on $6,000 of gains on the I-Bonds).

If the dollar difference is a few hundred bucks, then simplification wins out, at least for me.

In our case a short-term Treasury-only fund might make sense for us down the line. The most complicated looking thing over all of our accounts are the T-Bill and TIPS ladders that I have set up in my Fidelity brokerage account. There are five rungs for the TIPS ladder and four rungs for the T-Bill ladder. But Fidelity doesn't have a way to split these two ladders out so that one reads "TIPS ladder" and the other "T-Bill ladder". So I just see nine fixed income positions in a random order. While not ideal, this is fine for me now that my brain still functions OK and I am not yet dead. But I'd hate to think of my wife trying to sort this out if/when I pre-decease her.


When I started discussions last week with someone in his early 80s (with a wife about the same age) regarding him changing his investment portfolio and him doing it on his own ... my first question was who were the executors of their wills in case both he and his wife were gone at the same time.

As I suspected it was their son and daughter.

I asked that to see if he (and his wife) agreed at some point that he was no longer of self-managing their investments then would either or both of their children be capable of stepping in or whether some professional management needed to be put in place as a backup. That then led to him telling me the capabilities of both his son-in-law and his son-in-law's brother.

The prior was the lead up to asking you if you have any such backup in your life in any way so that your wife would not be on her own.

Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
Post Reply