Maximum Bond Upside

Discussion of the Bond portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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dutchtraffic
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by dutchtraffic » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:12 am

buddtholomew wrote:
dutchtraffic wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:
You're not in bonds for the yield, but capital gains.
Yes, but the lower the yield, the less potential capital gains left.
Rates can and have gone negative.
Capital gains are not capped when bonds reach zero.
Sure, It's just not very likely to see rates at -8%....
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buddtholomew
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by buddtholomew » Sun Oct 16, 2016 8:55 am

dutchtraffic wrote:
buddtholomew wrote:
dutchtraffic wrote:
Yes, but the lower the yield, the less potential capital gains left.
Rates can and have gone negative.
Capital gains are not capped when bonds reach zero.
Sure, It's just not very likely to see rates at -8%....
Nor at +8%, but I share your concern as well.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by MachineGhost » Sun Oct 16, 2016 10:56 am

dutchtraffic wrote:Yes, but the lower the yield, the less potential capital gains left.
That is false. It's called convexity. Look it up.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by ochotona » Fri Nov 11, 2016 5:34 am

Thirty year T-bond yields are up about 0.7% since end of September. Makes we wonder if we're on a long term path back to normalcy. I am a buyer if we get north of 4%, I have Treasuries already, but not long term. Interesting times.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by curlew » Fri Nov 11, 2016 8:07 am

MachineGhost wrote:
dutchtraffic wrote:Yes, but the lower the yield, the less potential capital gains left.
That is false. It's called convexity. Look it up.
From the wiki..... The part where it says "Then it is easy to see" is a hoot.

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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by tarentola » Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:26 am

I have a dilemma a bit like duchtraffic's earlier on in the thread.

I am in Euroland and have a Euro PP and a VP, as well as a high-yield portfolio. Now that I am retired, I have finally accepted that I am not good at speculation. I want to abandon the VP and include its contents in the PP where possible. (The HY port does all right, mainly because I don't trade it!).

Including the VP contents in the PP has essentially meant shoehorning Emerging Market and Japan ETFs and some sector ETFs (Health and Tech) into the PP share allocation, and adding cash. I think this remains a reasonable non-US PP, as the allocation within the share compartment is now Europe 57%, EM 14%, Japan 14%, Health and Tech 15%. I have exposure to the US in the HY shares, so I won't add any US shares here for the moment.

The resulting PP is now 26-18-30-26% shares-long bonds-gold-cash. It is within rebalance limits, but I would like to maintain a straight 4x25 PP, so should add some bonds to the 18%. However, as discussed in this thread, this does not seem like a good time to buy bonds, particularly long bonds. So I would be grateful for opinions on how and when to go about topping up the bonds. For example:
- do nothing until a rebalancing band is hit
- buy bonds but not long bonds: intermediate bonds for example, to reduce duration and risk
- grit teeth and buy long bonds anyway in normal PP fashion
- do a partial top-up, using intermediate or long bonds
- wait for the Fed announcement on interest rates next week and buy bonds when the smoke has cleared
- or other suggestion?

A high-yield portfolio (31% of total) and a permanent portfolio (57%) and a savings account (12%) are perhaps not such a bad combination. But the HY portfolio could be cut in half in the next market crash. After (re)reading extensively on this forum and elsewhere, I aim to slowly incorporate all my investments including the HY shares and the cash savings account into the PP, but that is perhaps a subject for another thread.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by tarentola » Thu Dec 08, 2016 12:59 am

Long bonds in the PP worked very well in recent years in countering market dips. I am still reluctant to add to my long bonds at the moment because of the risk of rising rates.

I did a comparison of two PPs in Portfolio Visualizer, a conventional PP with long bonds and another with intermediate bonds replacing long bonds, 5/25% rebalancing. To my surprise, there was little difference between them, and the difference depended on the period examined. For 1972-2016, the long bond version wins by a small margin. CAGRs and MaxDDs are virtually identical with differences of a fraction of a percent. For 1972-1990, the intermediate bond version wins, again by a small margin. In recent years, the long bond version performs better, beating the intermediate version's CAGR by about half a percentage point in 2000-2016.

So although I understand the theory that long bond volatility is a counterbalance to stock and gold volatility, I conclude that in practice, intermediate bonds have historically worked just as well. So why be exposed to the interest rate risk of long bonds if they provide no consistent extra return? Or is there something I am not getting here?

(PP with long bonds and 5/25% rebal 1972-2016: CAGR 8.55%, MaxDD -13.40%. Intermediate bonds 8.32% and -12.95%. Inflation-adjusted. Sharpe 0.51 in both cases.)
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by ochotona » Thu Dec 08, 2016 5:42 am

I noticed this also.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by barrett » Thu Dec 08, 2016 7:07 am

tarentola wrote:I did a comparison of two PPs in Portfolio Visualizer, a conventional PP with long bonds and another with intermediate bonds replacing long bonds, 5/25% rebalancing. To my surprise, there was little difference between them, and the difference depended on the period examined. For 1972-2016, the long bond version wins by a small margin. CAGRs and MaxDDs are virtually identical with differences of a fraction of a percent. For 1972-1990, the intermediate bond version wins, again by a small margin. In recent years, the long bond version performs better, beating the intermediate version's CAGR by about half a percentage point in 2000-2016.
This is the common "bullet vs. barbell" debate. Both seem to work OK if you are just looking at CAGR, but I believe that the cash portion of the barbell offers certain advantages. For example, if you include all your assets in your PP and you have a cash position of 25% (or whatever), that portion can be tapped for significant expenses without necessarily throwing off the whole mix by too much. With the bullet approach, you would likely be selling off some intermediate bonds (possibly at an inopportune time) if you wanted to take a largish chunk out for living, college, home repair expenses, etc.

If you have a separate emergency fund outside of your PP, this probably wouldn't be much of an issue.

Lastly, in a severe stock drawdown like 2008, having a bunch of cash allows one to rebalance and buy some cheaper shares fairly easily. Just food for thought. The intermediate approach might be good if the volatility of 30-year treasuries stresses you out. Being less stressed out has value as well. Investing shouldn't always be about maximizing CAGR.
Last edited by barrett on Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by tarentola » Thu Dec 08, 2016 8:30 am

This is the common "bullet vs. barbell" debate. Both seem to work OK if you are just looking at CAGR, but I believe that the cash portion of the barbell offers certain advantages. For example, if you include all your assets in your PP and you have a cash position of 25% (or whatever), that portion can be tapped for significant expenses without necessarily throwing off the whole mix by too much. With the bullet approach, you would likely be selling off some intermediate bonds (possibly at an inopportune time) if you wanted to take a largish chunk out for living, college, home repair expenses, etc.
Thanks for the reply barrett, but this is not bullet v barbell. It is simply 25% LTTs v 25% MTTs. The portfolios I tested were both 25x4, and I simply replaced the 25% LTTs with 25% MTTs. I agree with you about the advantages of the cash portion.
Post by ochotona » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:42 am
I noticed this also.
ochatona: did you take any action, or just hang on to your LTTs?
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by dualstow » Thu Dec 08, 2016 9:22 am

tarentola wrote: {recacted}- I am still reluctant to add to my long bonds at the moment because of the risk of rising rates.

I did a comparison of two PPs in Portfolio Visualizer,
..., and the difference depended on the period examined
...
So although I understand the theory that long bond volatility is a counterbalance to stock and gold volatility, I conclude that in practice, intermediate bonds have historically worked just as well. So why be exposed to the interest rate risk of long bonds if they provide no consistent extra return?
Interesting. I don't have advice, but I thought Harry's idea was that intermediate bonds just don't have the volatility that 30-year ones do to make up for huge stock crashes. Maybe that's not true. I don't know, and I don't use Portfolio Visualizer.

I'm a bit stuck in recency bias, because having started in 2010, I don't know if I would still be with the pp if it weren't for my skyrocketing long bonds. (Yes, a lot of that profit has evaporated since the US election. And, it was a loss before that, before my best bonds were up 40%).

You said you've got a Euro pp. What specifically did you use when testing intermediate bonds? By the way, are we talking ten-years? At bogleheads, some consider five-year notes to be intermediate, too. Did European bonds generally perform the same from 2000-2016 as their American treasury counterparts? (Not a rhetorical question. I really don't know).

I'll continue to buy long bonds, but I am also reluctant to add any new ones until they're down to 15% of my pp.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by barrett » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:39 am

tarentola wrote:Thanks for the reply barrett, but this is not bullet v barbell. It is simply 25% LTTs v 25% MTTs. The portfolios I tested were both 25x4, and I simply replaced the 25% LTTs with 25% MTTs. I agree with you about the advantages of the cash portion.
Sorry for the ramble, tarentola. I ran just calculations on peaktotrough.com and there does seem to be a considerable bump from using LTTs. Using the time period 1/1/75 though yesterday, I get a 7.78 CAGR with 10-year treasuries and a 8.21 CAGR with 30-year treasuries. That .43 difference doesn't sound like a lot but one would have ended up with 18% more money using the LTTs.

Just looking at numbers from 1/1/2000, the long bonds gave an overall bump to the portfolio of about 11%.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by tarentola » Thu Dec 08, 2016 11:56 am

dualstow

Yes, the European long bonds also performed well recently as in the US. My Euro long bond ETF (MTF.PA from Lyxor) is still showing a 25% profit despite being 12% off its recent high.

In Europe we don't have the same range of analytical tools for Euro ETFs and funds, so all my backtests refer to US investments. In Portfolio Visualizer, I simply took their category Intermediate Treasuries, for which PV uses the Vanguard ITT fund VFITX which is 5.6 years' duration. There is also a 10y Treasuries (duration 8.9y) category in PV, which not surprisingly gives results virtually identical to the ITT.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by tarentola » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:08 pm

barrett

Thanks for the info. Peaktotrough offers different rebalancing options, which may explain the difference from Portfolio Visualizer.

Yes, the long bond added 0.5% more CAGR to the portfolio since 2000. But for the 25 previous years, the CAGRs of portfolios with 30y PP and 10y PP were virtually identical - respectively 9.94% and 9.77%.

So I hope you understand my concern. The long bond did outperform the 10-y significantly but not enormously since 2000, and did not outperform before 2000. In 2000-2016, the Fed Funds rate dropped from 5% to 0.5%, a situation which is unlikely to be repeated and will probably be reversed.

For fun, I compared in Portfoliovisualizer the PP with long bonds (duration 17.9y), intermediate bonds (5.6y) and short-term bonds (2.8 y). To my surprise, their respective CAGRs and maxDDs are all within one percentage point of one another (see below). Maybe any old bond duration will do!

So I think my original question stands: why be exposed to the interest rate risk of long bonds if they provide no consistent extra return? Why use long bonds in the PP when shorter duration bonds would expose you to only one-third (or even one-sixth!) of the interest rate risk, while reducing portfolio performance only slightly, if at all? Or to put the question the other way round: is the small and uncertain gain from using long bonds (rather than intermediate bonds) worth tripling your interest rate risk?

(1977-2016, 5/25 rebalancing, CAGRs 8.34%, 7.88% and 7.60% for PPs with long, intermediate and short-term bonds respectively)
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by dualstow » Thu Dec 08, 2016 3:17 pm

tarentola wrote:For fun, I compared in Portfoliovisualizer the PP with long bonds (duration 17.9y),
We're supposed to sell long bonds when they have fewer than twenty years to maturity (Yes, I wrote maturity not duration) in order to maintain that volatility. The flip side of that means that we may end up selling just as interest rates rise and value gets halved. ??? :)
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by barrett » Fri Dec 09, 2016 5:23 am

dualstow wrote:
tarentola wrote:For fun, I compared in Portfoliovisualizer the PP with long bonds (duration 17.9y),
We're supposed to sell long bonds when they have fewer than twenty years to maturity (Yes, I wrote maturity not duration) in order to maintain that volatility. The flip side of that means that we may end up selling just as interest rates rise and value gets halved. ??? :)
If value is really getting "halved", then you're likely replacing some of those bonds you just sold with higher coupon bonds. Not telling you anything you don't know but I wouldn't mind holding something that's got a bit more yield. The higher yielding bonds are also less volatile with more potential upside. Just trying to see how much I can squeeze into one post that is already known to you, Dualstow.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by dualstow » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:12 am

( Started this soon after your post, but I guess I got called to dinner as I found it unfinished on my screen later )
barrett wrote:If value is really getting "halved", then you're likely replacing some of those bonds you just sold with higher coupon bonds. .
You're absolutely right, barrett, but I think it will feel painful to lock in the loss. You could buy shares of Wells Fargo after your original shares drop 50% and it'll feel like a bargain, but that doesn't make it easy to sell those original shares.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by buddtholomew » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:02 pm

Is it too early to hear from CraigR who usually chimes in to say if your equities are high and your bonds are low, it may be a good time to look at rebalancing.

I can either buy LTT's from cash or sell from stocks with no tax implications as I have carryover losses from gold.

So the question is whose buying LTT's?
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by buddtholomew » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:08 pm

tarentola wrote:barrett

Thanks for the info. Peaktotrough offers different rebalancing options, which may explain the difference from Portfolio Visualizer.

Yes, the long bond added 0.5% more CAGR to the portfolio since 2000. But for the 25 previous years, the CAGRs of portfolios with 30y PP and 10y PP were virtually identical - respectively 9.94% and 9.77%.

So I hope you understand my concern. The long bond did outperform the 10-y significantly but not enormously since 2000, and did not outperform before 2000. In 2000-2016, the Fed Funds rate dropped from 5% to 0.5%, a situation which is unlikely to be repeated and will probably be reversed.

For fun, I compared in Portfoliovisualizer the PP with long bonds (duration 17.9y), intermediate bonds (5.6y) and short-term bonds (2.8 y). To my surprise, their respective CAGRs and maxDDs are all within one percentage point of one another (see below). Maybe any old bond duration will do!

So I think my original question stands: why be exposed to the interest rate risk of long bonds if they provide no consistent extra return? Why use long bonds in the PP when shorter duration bonds would expose you to only one-third (or even one-sixth!) of the interest rate risk, while reducing portfolio performance only slightly, if at all? Or to put the question the other way round: is the small and uncertain gain from using long bonds (rather than intermediate bonds) worth tripling your interest rate risk?

(1977-2016, 5/25 rebalancing, CAGRs 8.34%, 7.88% and 7.60% for PPs with long, intermediate and short-term bonds respectively)
You miss a lot of the picture if you look at returns over that time period. Look at individual years where the PP would have sustained outsized losses without the LTT exposure. It's difficult to stick to the plan if one is concerned with volatility on an annual basis.

Another thing that usually gets forgotten is the 25% allocation to STT's. 50/50 produces a duration similar to intermediate term treasuries. Barbell vs. Bullet. Supposedly, a barbell will perform better in a rising interest rate environment. Believe me, I know I'm a bodybuilder.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by Alanw » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:11 pm

I started PP in 2011. Held my nose and bought LTT's at 4.25%. Have rebalanced twice out of LTT's since. Who would have guessed? If you hit a rebalance band, stick to the plan.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by dualstow » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:14 pm

I feel glad that I sold some of my long bonds prematurely. I did not hit a rebalancing band but had considered selling the lot of them when TLT hit the 120s again and my best bonds were at 40% profit. It was like getting years worth of interest payments up front...except I didn't sell the best bonds. O0 Sold the breakeven ones.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by Alanw » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:41 pm

This year will be my first RMD. Sold TLT at 136 to rebalance into cash. When one asset in PP is either up or down quite a bit, it is a good idea to check rebalance bands. A little luck doesn't hurt either.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by tarentola » Sun Dec 11, 2016 3:41 am

buddtholomew wrote:
You miss a lot of the picture if you look at returns over that time period. Look at individual years where the PP would have sustained outsized losses without the LTT exposure. It's difficult to stick to the plan if one is concerned with volatility on an annual basis.

Another thing that usually gets forgotten is the 25% allocation to STT's. 50/50 produces a duration similar to intermediate term treasuries. Barbell vs. Bullet. Supposedly, a barbell will perform better in a rising interest rate environment. Believe me, I know I'm a bodybuilder.
Budd

I am accept that there have been years, particularly recent years, when LTT was the best performer, but I am deliberately looking a the long term. I was very glad to have LTTs in my PP. I am glad to accept LTT volatility on an annual basis if it serves some purpose, but the backtests show the big picture: that a PP could have the same performance with equal portfolio volatility by using MTTs instead. The LTTs' own annual volatility could be bearable, but what precipitates my concern is the seeming inevitability of rising interest rates, taking away the LTTs' tailwind.

As you say, the barbell effect of the cash may mitigate the effect of rising interest rates, but the backtest includes 25% MTTs not 50%, so the barbell is still there, just a bit lower, to mix metaphors, and the results are more or less the same as for 25% LTTs.

I tried to be a bodybuilder myself, but I have to call it weight training as I seem to be too ectomorphic to gain much (like some of my VP investments).
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by dualstow » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:45 am

Ha! I was an ectomorph until ~age32, but my stomach seems to be reinvesting in itself.
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Re: Maximum Bond Upside

Post by buddtholomew » Sun Dec 11, 2016 9:47 am

I'm at 9% BF after the holidays ;D
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