Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Discussion of the Cash portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by dualstow » Mon Mar 16, 2020 7:42 pm

(Vinny) I believe that VUSXX was not in existence when they wrote the book and they were writing about the Federal money market fund. Or, its equivalent that existed at the time

Quasi-existence: VUSXX was closed to new investors for a long time, and perhaps when the book was being written. However, you can see in the Performance tab that it goes back to 1992.
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by Tortoise » Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:48 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:46 am
The money markets are going to be in turmoil.

Stay safe.
Thanks for the heads-up, Libertarian666. I just transferred all of my taxable cash at Vanguard from the Federal MMF to the Treasury MMF.

I feel a bit more secure now, so thanks again for the alert.
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by vnatale » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:10 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:48 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:46 am
The money markets are going to be in turmoil.

Stay safe.
Thanks for the heads-up, Libertarian666. I just transferred all of my taxable cash at Vanguard from the Federal MMF to the Treasury MMF.

I feel a bit more secure now, so thanks again for the alert.
I'm not happy that the $50,000 minimum is set at the account level and not set at your overall investment at Vanguard.

Seems that it would not require some fancy software to recognize how much total investment one has at Vanguard?

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:37 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:48 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:46 am
The money markets are going to be in turmoil.

Stay safe.
Thanks for the heads-up, Libertarian666. I just transferred all of my taxable cash at Vanguard from the Federal MMF to the Treasury MMF.

I feel a bit more secure now, so thanks again for the alert.
Sure, glad to help.
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:38 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 9:10 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 8:48 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 6:46 am
The money markets are going to be in turmoil.

Stay safe.
Thanks for the heads-up, Libertarian666. I just transferred all of my taxable cash at Vanguard from the Federal MMF to the Treasury MMF.

I feel a bit more secure now, so thanks again for the alert.
I'm not happy that the $50,000 minimum is set at the account level and not set at your overall investment at Vanguard.

Seems that it would not require some fancy software to recognize how much total investment one has at Vanguard?

Vinny
I'm pretty sure there are some perqs that you get from having a big total account balance there, but since I don't have a Vanguard account I don't have any details.
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:37 am

Vinny, I took the balance down to 10-20,000 for years and they didn’t kick me out. What I don’t know is how long you have maintain the balance of 50k before you can move money out. Probably not long.
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:13 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:45 pm
vnatale wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:43 pm
dualstow wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:55 pm
It's tech's thread, but I'm happy that I played a small role.
I look forward to the day that things are calmer and perhaps I can buy those less safe investments again.
He started it but you actually took ACTION! And, for me, it was DEFINITELY the catalyst. You played no small role but a HUGE role!

Thanks again!

Vinny
I actually took action to switch my funds, as I said in the original post.
But as long as you did the right thing, I don't care if I get the credit. :D
Of course all the credit lies squarely with you whether you want it or not. :D
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by vnatale » Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:52 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:13 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:45 pm
vnatale wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:43 pm
dualstow wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:55 pm
It's tech's thread, but I'm happy that I played a small role.
I look forward to the day that things are calmer and perhaps I can buy those less safe investments again.
He started it but you actually took ACTION! And, for me, it was DEFINITELY the catalyst. You played no small role but a HUGE role!

Thanks again!

Vinny
I actually took action to switch my funds, as I said in the original post.
But as long as you did the right thing, I don't care if I get the credit. :D
Of course all the credit lies squarely with you whether you want it or not. :D
No. I give it to the two of you. Because absent the actions of each of you I would have NEVER taken the subsequent actions! I know myself too well. So much inertia when it comes to these things. Now I'm thinking tomorrow that I should go full T-Bills for all my fixed investments. Since I've never once bought a T-Bill or a bond, I need some guidance from Vanguard on the other end how to do it. Plus, be all up-to-date on the recommendations people have made here as to how to buy them. Either at auction or off-the-shelf (from the market). I'd lean toward buying them in the shortest term possible to most mimic a money market fund doing the same. But I am up against two things. My intertia and that my accounts at Vanguard have not yet been collapsed into maybe three or four, tops. Instead I have nine accounts with Vanguard and each one of those have a fixed / cash portion in it. So, until I do my collapsing it'd be some work to do every month. I'd also want guidance from Vanguard as to how to collapse various accounts into fewer ones. Based upon Vanguard's busy signals yesterday I'd not be optimistic of being able to get from them this needed assistance. But I'm just now realizing that yesterday was my first tiny step to go full classic Permanent Portfolio. For all the funds I had invested in money market funds, I put them in the safest money market available.

Vinny

inny
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:53 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:52 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:13 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:45 pm
vnatale wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:43 pm
dualstow wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:55 pm
It's tech's thread, but I'm happy that I played a small role.
I look forward to the day that things are calmer and perhaps I can buy those less safe investments again.
He started it but you actually took ACTION! And, for me, it was DEFINITELY the catalyst. You played no small role but a HUGE role!

Thanks again!

Vinny
I actually took action to switch my funds, as I said in the original post.
But as long as you did the right thing, I don't care if I get the credit. :D
Of course all the credit lies squarely with you whether you want it or not. :D
No. I give it to the two of you. Because absent the actions of each of you I would have NEVER taken the subsequent actions! I know myself too well. So much inertia when it comes to these things. Now I'm thinking tomorrow that I should go full T-Bills for all my fixed investments. Since I've never once bought a T-Bill or a bond, I need some guidance from Vanguard on the other end how to do it. Plus, be all up-to-date on the recommendations people have made here as to how to buy them. Either at auction or off-the-shelf (from the market). I'd lean toward buying them in the shortest term possible to most mimic a money market fund doing the same. But I am up against two things. My intertia and that my accounts at Vanguard have not yet been collapsed into maybe three or four, tops. Instead I have nine accounts with Vanguard and each one of those have a fixed / cash portion in it. So, until I do my collapsing it'd be some work to do every month. I'd also want guidance from Vanguard as to how to collapse various accounts into fewer ones. Based upon Vanguard's busy signals yesterday I'd not be optimistic of being able to get from them this needed assistance. But I'm just now realizing that yesterday was my first tiny step to go full classic Permanent Portfolio. For all the funds I had invested in money market funds, I put them in the safest money market available.

Vinny

inny
Are one or two of your accounts much larger than the rest? If so, just do those.
And I believe there's an auction of 1, 2 and 3 month bills every week.
At least that's the way it looks on the Fidelity site.
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by vnatale » Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:05 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:53 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 5:52 pm
dualstow wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:13 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 3:45 pm
vnatale wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 1:43 pm
dualstow wrote:
Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:55 pm
It's tech's thread, but I'm happy that I played a small role.
I look forward to the day that things are calmer and perhaps I can buy those less safe investments again.
He started it but you actually took ACTION! And, for me, it was DEFINITELY the catalyst. You played no small role but a HUGE role!

Thanks again!

Vinny
I actually took action to switch my funds, as I said in the original post.
But as long as you did the right thing, I don't care if I get the credit. :D
Of course all the credit lies squarely with you whether you want it or not. :D
No. I give it to the two of you. Because absent the actions of each of you I would have NEVER taken the subsequent actions! I know myself too well. So much inertia when it comes to these things. Now I'm thinking tomorrow that I should go full T-Bills for all my fixed investments. Since I've never once bought a T-Bill or a bond, I need some guidance from Vanguard on the other end how to do it. Plus, be all up-to-date on the recommendations people have made here as to how to buy them. Either at auction or off-the-shelf (from the market). I'd lean toward buying them in the shortest term possible to most mimic a money market fund doing the same. But I am up against two things. My intertia and that my accounts at Vanguard have not yet been collapsed into maybe three or four, tops. Instead I have nine accounts with Vanguard and each one of those have a fixed / cash portion in it. So, until I do my collapsing it'd be some work to do every month. I'd also want guidance from Vanguard as to how to collapse various accounts into fewer ones. Based upon Vanguard's busy signals yesterday I'd not be optimistic of being able to get from them this needed assistance. But I'm just now realizing that yesterday was my first tiny step to go full classic Permanent Portfolio. For all the funds I had invested in money market funds, I put them in the safest money market available.

Vinny

inny
Are one or two of your accounts much larger than the rest? If so, just do those.
And I believe there's an auction of 1, 2 and 3 month bills every week.
At least that's the way it looks on the Fidelity site.
You may again be the catalyst for me to do something tomorrow! And, if I get started I will do them ALL. Once the inertia is overcome I go all out. The binary personality. All or none.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:03 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:05 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:53 pm

Are one or two of your accounts much larger than the rest? If so, just do those.
And I believe there's an auction of 1, 2 and 3 month bills every week.
At least that's the way it looks on the Fidelity site.
You may again be the catalyst for me to do something tomorrow! And, if I get started I will do them ALL. Once the inertia is overcome I go all out. The binary personality. All or none.

Vinny
Sounds good!
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by vnatale » Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:14 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:03 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:05 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:53 pm

Are one or two of your accounts much larger than the rest? If so, just do those.
And I believe there's an auction of 1, 2 and 3 month bills every week.
At least that's the way it looks on the Fidelity site.
You may again be the catalyst for me to do something tomorrow! And, if I get started I will do them ALL. Once the inertia is overcome I go all out. The binary personality. All or none.

Vinny
Sounds good!
The distance of your power reach is at least as many miles as it is between Massachusetts and Texas! You can tell us if you have had success at a greater distance in influencing others whether intentionally or unintentionally.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:18 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:14 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:03 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:05 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:53 pm

Are one or two of your accounts much larger than the rest? If so, just do those.
And I believe there's an auction of 1, 2 and 3 month bills every week.
At least that's the way it looks on the Fidelity site.
You may again be the catalyst for me to do something tomorrow! And, if I get started I will do them ALL. Once the inertia is overcome I go all out. The binary personality. All or none.

Vinny
Sounds good!
The distance of your power reach is at least as many miles as it is between Massachusetts and Texas! You can tell us if you have had success at a greater distance in influencing others whether intentionally or unintentionally.

Vinny
Thanks. I'm not sure exactly how far my influence has reached. I do know that I've helped at least a few people on bogleheads.org get their money into Treasury MMFs, but I don't know where they live.
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by vnatale » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:16 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:18 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:14 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:03 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:05 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:53 pm

Are one or two of your accounts much larger than the rest? If so, just do those.
And I believe there's an auction of 1, 2 and 3 month bills every week.
At least that's the way it looks on the Fidelity site.
You may again be the catalyst for me to do something tomorrow! And, if I get started I will do them ALL. Once the inertia is overcome I go all out. The binary personality. All or none.

Vinny
Sounds good!
The distance of your power reach is at least as many miles as it is between Massachusetts and Texas! You can tell us if you have had success at a greater distance in influencing others whether intentionally or unintentionally.

Vinny
Thanks. I'm not sure exactly how far my influence has reached. I do know that I've helped at least a few people on bogleheads.org get their money into Treasury MMFs, but I don't know where they live.
Then lacking that specific information I'll take it, for now, that I am your record for your longest distance assistance!

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:29 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 11:16 am
Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 7:18 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:14 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 10:03 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 7:05 pm
Libertarian666 wrote:
Tue Mar 17, 2020 6:53 pm

Are one or two of your accounts much larger than the rest? If so, just do those.
And I believe there's an auction of 1, 2 and 3 month bills every week.
At least that's the way it looks on the Fidelity site.
You may again be the catalyst for me to do something tomorrow! And, if I get started I will do them ALL. Once the inertia is overcome I go all out. The binary personality. All or none.

Vinny
Sounds good!
The distance of your power reach is at least as many miles as it is between Massachusetts and Texas! You can tell us if you have had success at a greater distance in influencing others whether intentionally or unintentionally.

Vinny
Thanks. I'm not sure exactly how far my influence has reached. I do know that I've helped at least a few people on bogleheads.org get their money into Treasury MMFs, but I don't know where they live.
Then lacking that specific information I'll take it, for now, that I am your record for your longest distance assistance!

Vinny
According to available information, that's right.
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by KevinW » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:31 pm

I feel like someone should point out that if you keep each asset "pure of heart" at all times, you don't have to make these kinds of adjustments in the midst of market turmoil. 8)

I advocate keeping cash in T-bills or T-bill money market funds at all times.
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by vnatale » Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:46 pm

KevinW wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:31 pm
I feel like someone should point out that if you keep each asset "pure of heart" at all times, you don't have to make these kinds of adjustments in the midst of market turmoil. 8)

I advocate keeping cash in T-bills or T-bill money market funds at all times.
I've not yet become classic Permanent Portfolio so I'm not at the point to be "pure of heart". When I get there I will.

The initial goal was to have it all figured out and then be doing a rapid step-by-step implementation.

But I'm now seeing that I am slowly easing into it. And, I also realized today that I don't need to have it all figured out for what I should get done tomorrow -- collapsing my eight different retirement accounts into as few as possible - putting like tax treatment ones together - Roth, Traditional, and other.

That I had not done that caused major problems on Monday when I was trying to leave all my Prime and Federal money market funds and go to the Treasury money market fund.

First of all, I had to do it nine times (retirement account plus one non-retirement account) and because the each account had its own money market account my total cash is all split up among all those accounts and in several of them I could not meet the $50,000 minimum for Treasury and had to settle for Federal. Finally, in spite of checking all three times and documenting all twice I did not realize until today that the last exchange from Prime I put it into Federal when I should have been putting it in Treasury.

If I get to collapsing all my accounts tomorrow I may be able to correct that. But maybe not if funds are getting shifted between accounts.

There are many changes I need to be made and some of them need to be made in certain sequences. First one day and then the next day or a few days later.

Like I either shift this Federal to Treasury and then later collapse the accounts. Or, tomorrow I collapse all the accounts and then Friday shirt Federal to Treasury. I don't think it will work to do all the same day.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by Smith1776 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:34 am

Hey, guys, look. It's almost as if having 25% of your portfolio in cash is a good idea.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/19/fund-ma ... virus.html

Who would have thought? O0
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 4:42 am

Smith1776 wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 3:34 am
Hey, guys, look. It's almost as if having 25% of your portfolio in cash is a good idea.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/19/fund-ma ... virus.html

Who would have thought? O0
That's crazy talk! After all, you can't eat it!
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by pmward » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:40 am

The Fed announced yesterday they are backstopping the money market funds, just like they started doing after the "breaking the buck" fiasco back in 08.

Meanwhile, the USD was over $101 today! This is seriously like a replay of 08 all over again.
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Mar 19, 2020 2:52 pm

pmward wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:40 am
The Fed announced yesterday they are backstopping the money market funds, just like they started doing after the "breaking the buck" fiasco back in 08.

Meanwhile, the USD was over $101 today! This is seriously like a replay of 08 all over again.
The dollar is over $100? Wow, that is real deflation! ;)
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by Maddy » Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:59 am

Getting back to the initial premise of moving money market money into short-term bonds, please expand on your thinking. Is it specifically the Federal Money Market (default sweep) fund that concerns you, or money market funds in general? Pros and cons of opting for a treasury money market fund in lieu of, or in combination with, ST bonds?
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by vnatale » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:08 am

Maddy wrote:
Mon Mar 23, 2020 9:59 am
Getting back to the initial premise of moving money market money into short-term bonds, please expand on your thinking. Is it specifically the Federal Money Market (default sweep) fund that concerns you, or money market funds in general? Pros and cons of opting for a treasury money market fund in lieu of, or in combination with, ST bonds?
If you are at Vanguard, Federal money market not as safe as Treasury money market which is not as safe as directly owning T-Bills.

I have a barbell in my investing. Still heavily invested $-wise in equities. I'm taking plenty of risk there. Therefore, I want NO principal risk on the fixed end and have converted to the fullest extent possible to either Federal or Treasury, depending upon if an account meets the $50,000 Treasury minimum.

After that phone call with the Vanguard brokerage person this morning I can well see later this week converting all in both Federal and Treasury money market funds to direct ownership of T-Bills. You will actually get back less than your principal - negative returns currently between 0.12 and 0.15% -- but as Tortoise pointed out earlier we have always been willing to settle for lower yields compared to say the Prime money market account in return for the additional safety. I'd be looking at the negative return as simply a tiny insurance premium. Plus, I'd be saving on the Expense Ratio charges.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by KevinW » Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:40 pm

vnatale wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:46 pm
Like I either shift this Federal to Treasury and then later collapse the accounts. Or, tomorrow I collapse all the accounts and then Friday shirt Federal to Treasury. I don't think it will work to do all the same day.
Slow and steady wins the race. Usually when I'm rebalancing or doing account maintenance I only have one transaction per account "in the air" at a time, I fire one thing off, then a few business days do the next thing, etc. Under the PP ethos none of these things are really ever "urgent" so it's fine.
vnatale wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:46 pm
collapsing my eight different retirement accounts into as few as possible - putting like tax treatment ones together - Roth, Traditional, and other
+1, I think it's wise to hold the fewest accounts possible. For most people that's 1) employer, 2) Roth IRA, 3) traditional IRA if applicable, 4) taxable if applicable. It simplifies a lot of things and helps with the account-minimum thresholds you were talking about.
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Re: Ok, everyone, time to go Treasury-only MMFs

Post by vnatale » Tue Mar 24, 2020 2:16 pm

KevinW wrote:
Tue Mar 24, 2020 1:40 pm
vnatale wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:46 pm
Like I either shift this Federal to Treasury and then later collapse the accounts. Or, tomorrow I collapse all the accounts and then Friday shirt Federal to Treasury. I don't think it will work to do all the same day.
Slow and steady wins the race. Usually when I'm rebalancing or doing account maintenance I only have one transaction per account "in the air" at a time, I fire one thing off, then a few business days do the next thing, etc. Under the PP ethos none of these things are really ever "urgent" so it's fine.
vnatale wrote:
Wed Mar 18, 2020 10:46 pm
collapsing my eight different retirement accounts into as few as possible - putting like tax treatment ones together - Roth, Traditional, and other
+1, I think it's wise to hold the fewest accounts possible. For most people that's 1) employer, 2) Roth IRA, 3) traditional IRA if applicable, 4) taxable if applicable. It simplifies a lot of things and helps with the account-minimum thresholds you were talking about.
In addition to being an employee I've also been self-employed. So, according to how much self-employment income I had in a given year I opened various retirement vehicles - Keough plan, SEP-IRA, SIMPLE IRA, Solo 401(k) - for whichever one would allow me the maximum contribution that year.

Thus, already having ALL the four you named, I have all of those on top of those. Hence, nine separate accounts. Until now It's now really been an issue.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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