Gyroscopic Investing

I know that there are existing threads about buying paper gold, but I wanted my own. Plus, I wasn't sure if there are different recommendations based on whether you're putting it in a taxable account, a Roth IRA, or a tax-deferred account like a 401k. Normally you can't buy gold in employer-administered 401k accounts, but a while back I had a side business (still do, as far as I'm concerned, but haven't reported any income/losses on it in several years). When my wife and I each left our jobs at the time, we rolled over our employer-provided 401k accounts to these accounts. Initially, they were administered by Vanguard, but later converted to TD Ameritrade. So in these TD Ameritrade accounts I can purchase any stock I want (at one point I had the money invested in PRPFX).

Anyway, so I've got that TD Ameritrade 401k account. We've also got our Vanguard Roth IRA accounts. I'm not sure what I can/can't invest in with that Vanguard Roth IRA account. If someone can advise on that, that would be great.

For the TD Ameritrade 401k accounts, what would be your recommendation for a paper gold fund? I've seen a lot of different recommendations in this forum, but I simply can't understand a lot of the finer details, so please provide answers in a dumbed-down manner.

I chose IAU instead of GLD etf in my 401k. It has a lower expense ratio. It was the second largest gold etf so I figured it was relatively safe. GLD is the (pardon the pun) gold standard though. It is the largest and I believe it is the most liquid. Meaning when you want to sell there is going to be a buyer. But it has the highest expense ratio.

IAU or GLD are what the vast majority of us use for so called paper gold. My preference is IAU because of the much lighter ER. Under normal circumstances I favor physical for at least half of the gold allocation. But right now physical is in short supply and what is out there is mostly going for outrageous premiums. So yeah, for now I'd stick to paper/etfs until some semblance of normalcy returns. Unless you can afford those big 400 oz bricks they trade on the COMEX.

Ad Orientem wrote: ↑Sat Apr 04, 2020 7:55 pm IAU or GLD are what the vast majority of us use for so called paper gold. My preference is IAU because of the much lighter ER. My preference is IAU because of the much lighter ER."

About this time a year ago, when I was thinking a lot about how to set up my GB, people on this forum expressed a lot of interest in AAAU. So, I'm interested to see that IAU or GLD are what the vast majority of us use for so called paper gold and wondering if there are reasons why I should move some or all of my AAAU holdings to one of either IAU or GLD. About 22% of my gold is physical and the rest is AAAU.

Thank you...

I have GLD but wish I had AAAU instead. AAAU is cheaper, probably safer, and redeemable in gold.

I have not looked into to it in detail but from what I remember it is a tiny etf that may not trade well. On a positive note it is back by the Western Australian government.

When I adopted the permanent portfolio about 5 years ago, I did a bunch of research and got most comfortable with SGOL, in large measure because they store their physical gold in Switzerland.

ppnewbie wrote: ↑Mon Apr 06, 2020 1:47 am I have not looked into to it in detail but from what I remember it is a tiny etf that may not trade well. On a positive note it is back by the Western Australian government.

And you can transfer your shares to their brokerage account and they'll mail you physical gold. What other ETF does that? None as far as I know.

Hi all, I'm sorry, but I'm still very confused as to which *type* of account(s) I should/shouldn't hold paper gold in. Looking at past performance of IAU, AAAU, SGOL, GLD, etc., they seem "close enough" that I'm not going to fret too much about the specific fund (unless that matters in some way in regards to my primary question here).

So, if I have a weird 401k account that technically allows me to buy/sell any fund or stock I want, is that a good account to use? Or perhaps, even though I'm technically allowed to buy paper gold in that 401k account, I would be asking for trouble by doing so?

I also have a Roth IRA that I could use. Is that the best choice? What, if any, paperwork headaches are required at tax time? Any issues with buying/selling (to rebalance) later inside of a Roth IRA?

Then there's a taxable account, but I'd actually prefer to hoard most of my cash right now, as we are wanting to move and would like that cash on hand for that purpose. But if I *did* have extra cash I didn't mind using in a taxable account, would this be best? What are the tax-time implications of buying/selling with a taxable account?

Lastly, I'm assuming that I can't hold physical gold in relation to a 401k or Roth IRA, but only with my after-tax dollars, correct?

CT-Scott wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 9:27 am Hi all, I'm sorry, but I'm still very confused as to which *type* of account(s) I should/shouldn't hold paper gold in. Looking at past performance of IAU, AAAU, SGOL, GLD, etc., they seem "close enough" that I'm not going to fret too much about the specific fund (unless that matters in some way in regards to my primary question here).

So, if I have a weird 401k account that technically allows me to buy/sell any fund or stock I want, is that a good account to use? Or perhaps, even though I'm technically allowed to buy paper gold in that 401k account, I would be asking for trouble by doing so?

I also have a Roth IRA that I could use. Is that the best choice? What, if any, paperwork headaches are required at tax time? Any issues with buying/selling (to rebalance) later inside of a Roth IRA?

Then there's a taxable account, but I'd actually prefer to hoard most of my cash right now, as we are wanting to move and would like that cash on hand for that purpose. But if I *did* have extra cash I didn't mind using in a taxable account, would this be best? What are the tax-time implications of buying/selling with a taxable account?

Lastly, I'm assuming that I can't hold physical gold in relation to a 401k or Roth IRA, but only with my after-tax dollars, correct?

Gold Star Trust (goldstartrust.com) can open IRAs, whether Traditional or Roth, and hold physical gold for you.
I use them and find them pretty easy to deal with, although you will need to have a dealer to sell you the gold. They don't buy or sell gold themselves, I believe because that is prohibited by IRS regulations.

Yes, for a 401K/IRA that allows you to buy gold at all, you have two options:

1) A gold IRA like the one Tech suggested. Fidelity can do it too (unallocated gold bullion coins held in Nova Scotia). This only applies to IRAs though. You can't do it in a 401K. There are also restrictions on the specific coins you can buy.

2) Gold ETFs. I am not comfortable with IAU or GLD, but others on the forum are - do your own homework. AAAU is my current favorite - it's the Perth Mint's new ETF, low volume but backed by the Mint's gold store, and by inference the government of Australia. IMHO that is far safer than a private ETF that is doing backroom deals with its gold holdings to make extra $$ on the side. SGOL may be mildly better than IAU/GLD, but it's expensive.

In general, you want most of your gold in taxable, around 2/3 if you can swing it. You have much better options & control in taxable. The gold ETFs in tax-advantaged accounts are there in order to avoid having to deal with taxes during rebalances.

sophie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:38 am Fidelity can do it too (unallocated gold bullion coins held in Nova Scotia). This only applies to IRAs though. You can't do it in a 401K. There are also restrictions on the specific coins you can buy.

What is this sorcery???

HOW.DID.I.MISS.THIS ?

https://www.fidelity.com/customer-servi ... ous-metals

Never mind. Expensive.

Precious Metals
% Charged on Buy
$0–$9,999 2.90%
$10,000–$49,999 2.50%
$50,000–$99,999 1.98%
$100,000+* 0.99%

% Charged on Sell
$0–$49,999 2.00%
$50,000–$249,999 1.00%
$250,000+* 0.75%
With Texas Precious Metals, I'll get spot, pretty much, when I sell.

*delivery charges and applicable taxes if you take delivery

Fidelity charges a quarterly storage fee of 0.125% of the total value or
$3.75, whichever is greater. Storage fees are pre-billed based on the
value of the precious metals in the marketplace at the time of billing.

0.5% per year then. GoldStar Trust is 0.175% per year for $100k.

For more information on these other investments and the cost of a specific
transaction, contact Fidelity at 800-544-6666. Minimum fee per precious
metals transaction: $44. Minimum precious metals purchase: $2,500 ($1,000
for IRAs). Precious metals may not be purchased in a Fidelity Retirement Plan
(Keogh), and are restricted to certain types of investments in a Fidelity IRA.

ochotona wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:23 pm HOW.DID.I.MISS.THIS ?

https://www.fidelity.com/customer-servi ... ous-metals

It comes up now and then.
2012 - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2391&p=31867
2017 - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9070&p=161793

dualstow wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:51 pm

ochotona wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 1:23 pm HOW.DID.I.MISS.THIS ?

https://www.fidelity.com/customer-servi ... ous-metals

It comes up now and then.
2012 - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2391&p=31867
2017 - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9070&p=161793

Maybe someday, when I want to simplify, simplify, and simplify some more...

It's not actually that expensive! Storage is slightly more than an ETF, yes. The bid/ask cost, taken together, is not that different from the bid/ask spread on bullion coins. Look up the difference between the buy & sell price at APMEX for example.

I had thought about converting some of my Roth gold ETF $$ into these coins when I got enough in there. I'll probably be selling it instead though. Wondering when I'm going to hit that rebalance point!

Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:13 am Gold Star Trust (goldstartrust.com) can open IRAs, whether Traditional or Roth, and hold physical gold for you.
I use them and find them pretty easy to deal with, although you will need to have a dealer to sell you the gold. They don't buy or sell gold themselves, I believe because that is prohibited by IRS regulations.

Thanks for the suggestion. I may look into that in the future.

sophie wrote: ↑Wed Apr 15, 2020 10:38 am Yes, for a 401K/IRA that allows you to buy gold at all, you have two options:

1) A gold IRA like the one Tech suggested. Fidelity can do it too (unallocated gold bullion coins held in Nova Scotia). This only applies to IRAs though. You can't do it in a 401K. There are also restrictions on the specific coins you can buy.

2) Gold ETFs. I am not comfortable with IAU or GLD, but others on the forum are - do your own homework. AAAU is my current favorite - it's the Perth Mint's new ETF, low volume but backed by the Mint's gold store, and by inference the government of Australia. IMHO that is far safer than a private ETF that is doing backroom deals with its gold holdings to make extra $$ on the side. SGOL may be mildly better than IAU/GLD, but it's expensive.

My Roth IRA is with Vanguard. Can I buy Gold ETFs inside of that?