Logistics of Large Quanties o' Physical Gold

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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Logistics of Large Quanties o' Physical Gold

Post by ppnewbie » Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:54 pm

If folks on this forum had 7 figures to invest in Gold (Hypothetical Amounts).

- Would you have it in Physical form?
- Where would you store it?
- How do you make it liquid (preferrably nearly as liquid as buying and selling stock)? Like say you had to pay your kids tuition and on
week or less notice it was back into cash.
- I kind of know how to acquire it. But how would you acquire say 200k in gold or for that matter sell 200k?
- Very very low counter party risk. The lowest would be a 2 million monster box in a safe in your house but then thats a whole other potential danger.

At the moment my physical holdings seem more like a pet project because transacting / auditing / storing, etc, etc...Dont seem that practical. Also the requirement would be Gold Eagles not bars unless it's some kind of depository using good delivery bars.

I would love to hear people opinions but would love to year actual experiences.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by dualstow » Thu Jan 27, 2022 2:20 pm

Ask Budd- he has that much.
As for me, it's hypothetical as I only have 100K in physical.

I get confused when people say x figures. O0 7 figures is 1 million, right? 1,000,000-1,999,999? In that case, I would probably go the Sophie route: Perth Mint or some other company that would serve as both my vendor and my storage facility. At some point between what I hold and 1MM, I would stick with a full safe deposit box and insurance. In fact, insurance is already on my to-do list for my current quantity. It's very cheap peace of mind.

I own a monster box -- it's empty -- and it doesn't look like it would fit the safe deposit box I rent, so I'm not sure what my next move is. Maybe another bank box. But, even though I pledged to grow my pp and trim my vp some years ago, I failed to do so. I let my vp stocks run. So, i'm feeling that psychological wall that I'll need to overcome to purchase more physical coins. I have even thought about getting back into an etf.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:30 pm

There is no way I would hold that much at home. If anyone finds out, come on, you or your family are in real danger.

We use ETFs. Liquid, during normal times anyway. But there are counter parties, and fees.

We have a few coins. Enough to handle short term disaster needs.

We have some overseas and plan to buy more of that. There is no free lunch and no riskless way to go. And selling is always costly and has hassles. That’s why the ETFs exist.

Also consider what your heirs do when you die. I personally know of a household treasure hunt that happened, to the tune of mid six figures, and the heirs could not be sure that they got it all.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by Mark Leavy » Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:28 pm

I've bought and sold > $200K at the local coin shop in Portland (AJPM) without any trouble. They already knew me from smaller purchases.
To buy, you bring a cashier's check. To sell they cut you a house check. For smaller amounts, cash both ways.

Spread it around. Small town local bank safe deposit boxes or wine vaults.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by ppnewbie » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:43 pm

Thanks - that’s very helpful info about transacting with the local coin shop. I have a great relationship with mine. I just did not think it would scale. But based on what your saying, I’m probsbly off on that.

I did some preliminary research on the Texas bullion depository. That looks interesting.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by ppnewbie » Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:45 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:30 pm
There is no way I would hold that much at home. If anyone finds out, come on, you or your family are in real danger.

We use ETFs. Liquid, during normal times anyway. But there are counter parties, and fees.

We have a few coins. Enough to handle short term disaster needs.

We have some overseas and plan to buy more of that. There is no free lunch and no riskless way to go. And selling is always costly and has hassles. That’s why the ETFs exist.

Also consider what your heirs do when you die. I personally know of a household treasure hunt that happened, to the tune of mid six figures, and the heirs could not be sure that they got it all.
I use ETF’s as well - IAU. But would love a way to get away from JP Morgan (custodian of IAU) and the rest of the banksters.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by I Shrugged » Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:53 am

ppnewbie wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 10:45 pm
I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 6:30 pm
There is no way I would hold that much at home. If anyone finds out, come on, you or your family are in real danger.

We use ETFs. Liquid, during normal times anyway. But there are counter parties, and fees.

We have a few coins. Enough to handle short term disaster needs.

We have some overseas and plan to buy more of that. There is no free lunch and no riskless way to go. And selling is always costly and has hassles. That’s why the ETFs exist.

Also consider what your heirs do when you die. I personally know of a household treasure hunt that happened, to the tune of mid six figures, and the heirs could not be sure that they got it all.
I use ETF’s as well - IAU. But would love a way to get away from JP Morgan (custodian of IAU) and the rest of the banksters.
Understood.

I like diversification of the risks. Unfortunately, most of our Au is in GLD. We would have to pay considerable gains taxes to move it. So that makes me more willing to accept the counterparty risks. Not thrilled, but the risk calculus says stay put. Starting from scratch, I'd set up an account with SWPCayman.com and buy vaulted stuff. And maybe the Texas Bullion place too. It's hard to get excited about Perth, but each place has its own set of costs, benefits, and risks. Let's face it, big time gold ownership is not for the cheapskate or faint of heart. Anyone can own a few ounces at home for getting out of Dodge, and some more in a safe deposit box (don't ask don't tell), but not seven figures.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by I Shrugged » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:11 am

Mark Leavy wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:28 pm
I've bought and sold > $200K at the local coin shop in Portland (AJPM) without any trouble. They already knew me from smaller purchases.
To buy, you bring a cashier's check. To sell they cut you a house check. For smaller amounts, cash both ways.

Spread it around. Small town local bank safe deposit boxes or wine vaults.
I like it but of course it has risks too. One risk I see is that some or all of it gets lost in the shuffle when you go mad or die. So then, you have to either set up an "open this box upon my death" with a trusted agent, or you have to tell your trusted loved ones now. And trusting loved ones is a big risk because of their other relationships, offspring, etc. How do you handle this? If you don't mind telling or at least generalizing.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:17 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:11 am
Mark Leavy wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:28 pm
I've bought and sold > $200K at the local coin shop in Portland (AJPM) without any trouble. They already knew me from smaller purchases.
To buy, you bring a cashier's check. To sell they cut you a house check. For smaller amounts, cash both ways.

Spread it around. Small town local bank safe deposit boxes or wine vaults.
I like it but of course it has risks too. One risk I see is that some or all of it gets lost in the shuffle when you go mad or die. So then, you have to either set up an "open this box upon my death" with a trusted agent, or you have to tell your trusted loved ones now. And trusting loved ones is a big risk because of their other relationships, offspring, etc. How do you handle this? If you don't mind telling or at least generalizing.
I haven't solved it yet. As of now, no one but me knows the where and how.

I'm thinking some sort of dead man's switch - where if I don't respond to an increasingly urgent set of auto generated notifications then a set of coded instructions is emailed to my son and sister. Only decipherable with a 1st edition copy of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" And they fight it out mano a mano - driving madly accross the country to be the first to arrive at the boxes.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by ppnewbie » Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:20 am

I Shrugged wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:11 am
Mark Leavy wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:28 pm
I've bought and sold > $200K at the local coin shop in Portland (AJPM) without any trouble. They already knew me from smaller purchases.
To buy, you bring a cashier's check. To sell they cut you a house check. For smaller amounts, cash both ways.

Spread it around. Small town local bank safe deposit boxes or wine vaults.
I like it but of course it has risks too. One risk I see is that some or all of it gets lost in the shuffle when you go mad or die. So then, you have to either set up an "open this box upon my death" with a trusted agent, or you have to tell your trusted loved ones now. And trusting loved ones is a big risk because of their other relationships, offspring, etc. How do you handle this? If you don't mind telling or at least generalizing.
Good points. And that actually adds a todo to my list. First i need to make sure other older family members have this box provision. And that's an interesting suggestion about Wine Vaults. I've never heard of that.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by I Shrugged » Fri Jan 28, 2022 6:50 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:17 am
I Shrugged wrote:
Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:11 am
Mark Leavy wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 7:28 pm
I've bought and sold > $200K at the local coin shop in Portland (AJPM) without any trouble. They already knew me from smaller purchases.
To buy, you bring a cashier's check. To sell they cut you a house check. For smaller amounts, cash both ways.

Spread it around. Small town local bank safe deposit boxes or wine vaults.
I like it but of course it has risks too. One risk I see is that some or all of it gets lost in the shuffle when you go mad or die. So then, you have to either set up an "open this box upon my death" with a trusted agent, or you have to tell your trusted loved ones now. And trusting loved ones is a big risk because of their other relationships, offspring, etc. How do you handle this? If you don't mind telling or at least generalizing.
I haven't solved it yet. As of now, no one but me knows the where and how.

I'm thinking some sort of dead man's switch - where if I don't respond to an increasingly urgent set of auto generated notifications then a set of coded instructions is emailed to my son and sister. Only decipherable with a 1st edition copy of "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" And they fight it out mano a mano - driving madly accross the country to be the first to arrive at the boxes.
^-^
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Jan 29, 2022 6:36 am

ppnewbie wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:54 pm
If folks on this forum had 7 figures to invest in Gold (Hypothetical Amounts).

- Would you have it in Physical form?
Yes.
- Where would you store it?
Some at home, some in safe deposit boxes. The wine-storage also sounds like a smart idea.
- How do you make it liquid (preferrably nearly as liquid as buying and selling stock)? Like say you had to pay your kids tuition and on
week or less notice it was back into cash.
I think gold is as liquid as it needs to be, within the PP system. If you need cash, you already have some; if you have 7 figures of gold, you'd have about that much in cash. Then rebalance as needed.
- I kind of know how to acquire it. But how would you acquire say 200k in gold or for that matter sell 200k?
Colorado Gold, APMEX, etc. You'll even get a discount buying that much. There might be a better option for large orders like $200k.
- Very very low counter party risk. The lowest would be a 2 million monster box in a safe in your house but then thats a whole other potential danger.
Don't tell people about it. But really, whatever would make you open the safe would make you empty your brokerage account, too.
At the moment my physical holdings seem more like a pet project because transacting / auditing / storing, etc, etc...Dont seem that practical. Also the requirement would be Gold Eagles not bars unless it's some kind of depository using good delivery bars.
It's not that hard. Gold doesn't take up that much space; $200k would be 106 coins. You can hold a tube of 20 in the palm of your hand.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by dopplerdave » Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:14 am

About 2 months ago I had to sell about $200K in coins stored at SWP-Cayman. The funds were in my US brokerage around 3 days later.

I am using the secure notes feature in LastPass to let my executor access all my secrets (passwords, account numbers, etc.) Previously I was using Dashlane. The idea is your trusted friend requests access and you have a specified time (say 48 hours) to deny it.

Having spent the last 3 years helping the widow of a good friend unravel his finances, hidden accounts, etc., I can say it is really unfair to your heirs to make them go through this sort of treasure hunt.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by ppnewbie » Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:20 am

Very helpful info and it’s true - 200k of gold is really about 4 tubes of 25. I am considering SWP and possibly the Texas bullion depository. And the info regarding passwords is also great. Thanks.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by I Shrugged » Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:43 pm

dopplerdave wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:14 am
About 2 months ago I had to sell about $200K in coins stored at SWP-Cayman. The funds were in my US brokerage around 3 days later.

I am using the secure notes feature in LastPass to let my executor access all my secrets (passwords, account numbers, etc.) Previously I was using Dashlane. The idea is your trusted friend requests access and you have a specified time (say 48 hours) to deny it.

Having spent the last 3 years helping the widow of a good friend unravel his finances, hidden accounts, etc., I can say it is really unfair to your heirs to make them go through this sort of treasure hunt.
Excellent post!
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Jan 30, 2022 10:30 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 12:43 pm
dopplerdave wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:14 am
About 2 months ago I had to sell about $200K in coins stored at SWP-Cayman. The funds were in my US brokerage around 3 days later.

I am using the secure notes feature in LastPass to let my executor access all my secrets (passwords, account numbers, etc.) Previously I was using Dashlane. The idea is your trusted friend requests access and you have a specified time (say 48 hours) to deny it.

Having spent the last 3 years helping the widow of a good friend unravel his finances, hidden accounts, etc., I can say it is really unfair to your heirs to make them go through this sort of treasure hunt.
Excellent post!
Seconded
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by seajay » Tue Feb 01, 2022 3:13 pm

ppnewbie wrote:
Thu Jan 27, 2022 12:54 pm
If folks on this forum had 7 figures to invest in Gold (Hypothetical Amounts).

- Would you have it in Physical form?
- Where would you store it?
Why stuffed under the mattress of course. Given you might as well hold hard cash in such times of low interest rate yields, gold alongside the $1M of hard cash (Bills) helps you sleep better at night (less lumpy :)).

Keep some gold in powdered form, just enough that you might eat as a means of emergency conveyance. In some cases you might even sell gold dust for twice spot rates, so get filing.

Clipping used to be so common that coin edge security (reeding/milling, edge inscriptions) began around the 17th century. In the Victorian era "sweating", or shaking some gold sovereigns in a bag, and collecting the gold dust that accumulated was also common.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by whatchamacallit » Thu Feb 03, 2022 9:49 pm

Here is a way to hold up to 410 pounds of gold apparently.

https://news.artnet.com/art-world/solid ... rk-2067281
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by dualstow » Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:53 am

Ha, look at that thing. It looked bigger before I saw the guy standing next to it and providing scale. I thought it had come down to earth to help us evolve to the next level.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by Mark Leavy » Fri Feb 04, 2022 8:04 am

dualstow wrote:
Fri Feb 04, 2022 7:53 am
Ha, look at that thing. It looked bigger before I saw the guy standing next to it and providing scale. I thought it had come down to earth to help us evolve to the next level.
Not only is it relatively small. It is hollow.
The cube measures over a foot and a half on all sides and has a wall thickness of about a quarter inch.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by dualstow » Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:42 pm

dopplerdave wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:14 am

I am using the secure notes feature in LastPass to let my executor access all my secrets
Do change your passwords, Dave. See my sig.
RIP Marcello Gandini
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by vnatale » Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:47 pm

dualstow wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:42 pm

dopplerdave wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:14 am

I am using the secure notes feature in LastPass to let my executor access all my secrets

Do change your passwords, Dave. See my sig.


I use KeyPass, which I store in dropbox.

Anyone know any security risks with it?

I was always apprehensive about LastPass which prevented me from ever deciding to use it.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o' Physical Gold

Post by welderwannabe » Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:05 pm

Keypass is stored locally, about as secure as it gets.

Lastpass got hacked, but they store in the cloud.
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o' Physical Gold

Post by ppnewbie » Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:26 pm

I am extremely weary of anything that aggregates passwords that is not in my control, because I do not want to think about WHEN it gets hacked. But I am definitely open to hearing otherwise. I recently heard of a local unix password store / encrypter. I think it is called pass.

https://www.passwordstore.org/
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Re: Logistics of Large Quanties o Physical Gold

Post by ppnewbie » Fri Dec 23, 2022 6:31 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 4:47 pm
dualstow wrote:
Fri Dec 23, 2022 3:42 pm
dopplerdave wrote:
Sun Jan 30, 2022 9:14 am

I am using the secure notes feature in LastPass to let my executor access all my secrets
Do change your passwords, Dave. See my sig.
I use KeyPass, which I store in dropbox.

Anyone know any security risks with it?

I was always apprehensive about LastPass which prevented me from ever deciding to use it.
Just took a look at keypass. It looks pretty good.
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