Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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MachineGhost
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by MachineGhost »

escafandro wrote: Does anyone in the forum actually use Goldmoney, Perth Mint, Hard Assets Alliance or Bullion Vault?

If so, I would like to ask what is your experience, what are the key points to consider, and the pros and cons you have found.
It's been covered in here before but the legal situation with GoldMoney and Bullion Vault is way too murky.  The downside to Perth Mint is the ridiculous storage and purchasing fees, plus you can only buy and sell via local dealers that may not be open or not be overwhelmed during a crisis on amounts under $50K.

I think a lot of people in here have forgotten the purpose of the gold allocation in the HBPP is not just as part of an overall portfolio to withstand different economic regimes; it is specifically for crisis insurance where gold is being used as money in the underground economy when the government screws up its own currency and imposes anti-hoarding, capital controls, transaction restrictions, etc...  So holding up to several indirect layers of "paper gold" that cannot be used as medium of exchange serves purely convenience and maybe inertia denial about our rapidly decreasing Rule of Law.  The SEC just washed its hands of prosecuting Goldman Sachs for its role in the subprime debacle.

Look at the increasing cash and gold transaction restrictions occuring in the Eurozone right now.  It is far too late to wish you had direct ownership of gold coins in the peripheral countries.  With France's latest restictions on gold transaction, the gold-cash market there has collapsed and Belgium (across the border) has taken up the slack.
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by dcllee »

For non-taxable acct (eg. Roth), is GTU a good choice still? 
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by MediumTex »

dcllee wrote: For non-taxable acct (eg. Roth), is GTU a good choice still? 
Sure, though IAU is also a good choice.

The key with GTU is to understand how the premium to NAV issue works and only buy the fund after you are comfortable with how the premium is likely to behave over time.

With all of these gold funds, it's just important to know what you are buying. 
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by HB Reader »

escafandro wrote: Does anyone in the forum actually use Goldmoney, Perth Mint, Hard Assets Alliance or Bullion Vault?

If so, I would like to ask what is your experience, what are the key points to consider, and the pros and cons you have found.
I have used Goldmoney for a number of years.  I like it and have had no problems whatsover.  I file a yearly Treasury report on it in accordance with the law. 

Having said that, I wouldn't suggest it for the major portion of your gold exposure.  IMO, foreign bullion depositories should only play a minor role in a PP.
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by cowboyhat »

I would second craigr's advice for a person in your situation: check out Everbank. You can start with allocated or unallocated gold, or unallocated and then later switch your account to allocated. You can buy small amounts (1 oz increments) and open your account with a small minimum (I think it is 5 oz). You can ask to take delivery of your allocated metal and they will send it to you by USPS. They offer a limited number of options if you want to take delivery, but one of them is Krugerrands. A mildly annoying part about dealing with them is that they set the price based on the next London AM fixing, but if you are a long time horizon person that should not make too much difference.

You can also open bank accounts denominated in a number of different currencies, which might be useful for your lifestyle.
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by escafandro »

MachineGhost wrote: I think a lot of people in here have forgotten the purpose of the gold allocation in the HBPP is not just as part of an overall portfolio to withstand different economic regimes; it is specifically for crisis insurance where gold is being used as money in the underground economy when the government screws up its own currency and imposes anti-hoarding, capital controls, transaction restrictions, etc... 
Believe me if I could buy gold coins in my country and store them in a safe box, I would do that without a doubt.
But living in a small peripheral country is almost impossible to achieve that goal (either for lack of sellers or huge spreads between buying and selling).
So I'm looking for alternatives as close as possible.
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by escafandro »

Does anyone know a reliable dealer who provide international shipping?
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by CA PP »

you can try www.thesilvermountain.nl.  Their site says woldwide shipping.  I had good experience with them on two occasions, shipping to Italy.
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by smurff »

escafandro wrote: But living in a small peripheral country is almost impossible to achieve that goal (either for lack of sellers or huge spreads between buying and selling).
So I'm looking for alternatives as close as possible.
You have probably already told us, escafandro, which country you live in, but I do not remember. Where on this friendly planet are you located? :)
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by escafandro »

smurff wrote: Where on this friendly planet are you located? :)
Uruguay. Friendly country indeed.
Or as Homer say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRrsjxyea4Q
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by Greg »

escafandro wrote:
smurff wrote: Where on this friendly planet are you located? :)
Uruguay. Friendly country indeed.
Or as Homer say: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRrsjxyea4Q
I really wish there was a like feature on here. Great clip hah.
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by escafandro »

escafandro wrote: Does anyone know a reliable dealer who provide international shipping?
CA PP wrote: you can try www.thesilvermountain.nl.  Their site says woldwide shipping.  I had good experience with them on two occasions, shipping to Italy.
From what I can see they only ship within Europe and in euro transactions.

Any other suggestion?
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by CA PP »

Sorry, I have no other experience. You can contact them to confirm, their site says they ship worldwide.
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by escafandro »

Never mind CA PP, thanks. I found how much I have to pay in customs taxes and is insane.

Anyway, if anyone cares APMEX and Goldsilver.com makes international shipments.

Edit:
Kitco too.
Last edited by escafandro on Wed Aug 22, 2012 2:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by CPAGUY »

Mom, I have been a PM investor since 2002.  Most of my savings is in PMs.  For most of that time I kept it in coins in my own safekeeping (but not at my home).  I have re-evaluated that now.  Sadly, the vast majority of people no longer have any familiarity or understanding of PMs.  My concern is that national governments can very easily close down our ability to sell our coins to a dealer by any one of a number of methods.  If that were to happen, I would be stuck with coins that I could not readily turn into spendable money.  Bartering is a questionable proposition.  I might also need to leave the USA, in which case I could not take my coins with me.

I have decided that my long term savings in PMs will henceforth be kept out of my home country (USA) and vaulted in Switzerland or Hong Kong, where they can be sold quickly and easily and wired to any place that I have a bank account.  I have had a GoldMoney account for some time.  Now I will make more use of it.  I am considering retiring to Ecuador, or some other part of Latin America.  I confirmed with GoldMoney that they would be able to wire funds from my GoldMoney account to my Ecuadorian bank account.  The bank account mainly needs to be titled in the exact same name as your GoldMoney account so that they cannot plausibly be accused of money laundering.  GoldMoney is headquartered in the Channel Islands, so they are in a relatively safe jurisdiction.  Splitting up the jurisdiction of the account, the storage location and the home country of the owner makes it very difficult for any national government to get their hands on your PMs, plus they are stored where all the most powerful and influential people will be storing their own stash. 

Two other similar companies are Bullion Vault and Hard Assets Alliance (which is a relative newcomer to the retail side of this business).  All three provide allocated (bailment) accounts, meaning that you are the legally titled owner of the PMs, not simply an unsecured creditor of GoldMoney.  Even in case of bankruptcy, you would be at the head of the line because the PMs never belonged to the service provider (GoldMoney), but to you personally.  Also these accounts are audited several times a year and the existence of your PMs are verified.  The amount of metal is reconciled with the records of the owners so as to confirm that they match exactly.  So they cannot sell more metal than is vaulted. 

I agree with you that you do not want to use an ETF like GLD.  I can't tell you anything about GTU.  If you have followed the recent news of crashing investment firms in the USA, you may know that any company where you simply "have an account" is now totally unprotected from thievery a la MFGlobal.  There is even a new appelate court ruling on a similar case that gives the green light to firms that hypothecate (borrow against) customer funds and then lose that money.  The bank they borrowed from gets the money, not you.  It's immoral, but it is the new normal.  Caveat Emptor is the new rule.

I won't prolong this discussion, but I'd be happy to correspond with you privately if you like, or answer further questions here.   
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by escafandro »

escafandro wrote: Never mind CA PP, thanks. I found how much I have to pay in customs taxes and is insane.
I could talk with another custom agent today and he tell me that I can purchase gold coins abroad and import without problems (this made me think about the MTs topic "... person or machine")
So now I can make the leap from gold paper to gold physical.

I have only one more question:  APMEX or KITCO?
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by Pointedstick »

escafandro wrote: I have only one more question:  APMEX or KITCO?
Last time I made a purchase, it was from Goldmart. I found their prices to be the lowest of all the online merchants I checked out.
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by escafandro »

Pointedstick wrote: Last time I made a purchase, it was from Goldmart. I found their prices to be the lowest of all the online merchants I checked out.
How was your experience with Goldmart?
Because I found they do ship internationally. But they have a minimum purchase of 20 oz.
And this is not a minor issue.
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by Pointedstick »

escafandro wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: Last time I made a purchase, it was from Goldmart. I found their prices to be the lowest of all the online merchants I checked out.
How was your experience with Goldmart?
Because I found they do ship internationally. But they have a minimum purchase of 20 oz.
And this is not a minor issue.
I had a good experience. At least domestically, I know for a fact they allow you to purchase as little as a single ounce (that was my first purchase ;D ) A minimum international order of 20 oz is a bit high!
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by escafandro »

... Tell me about it. It's a big leap of faith.

Probably I will go with Kitco where the minimum is 1 unit, regardless of the size of the product.
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by Pointedstick »

That sounds like a sane plan. I can't even imagine writing a $34,000 USD check to some random foreign company!
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

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CPAGUY wrote: Thu Aug 30, 2012 9:36 am Mom, I have been a PM investor since 2002.  Most of my savings is in PMs.  For most of that time I kept it in coins in my own safekeeping (but not at my home).  I have re-evaluated that now.  Sadly, the vast majority of people no longer have any familiarity or understanding of PMs.  My concern is that national governments can very easily close down our ability to sell our coins to a dealer by any one of a number of methods.  If that were to happen, I would be stuck with coins that I could not readily turn into spendable money.  Bartering is a questionable proposition.  I might also need to leave the USA, in which case I could not take my coins with me.

I have decided that my long term savings in PMs will henceforth be kept out of my home country (USA) and vaulted in Switzerland or Hong Kong, where they can be sold quickly and easily and wired to any place that I have a bank account.  I have had a GoldMoney account for some time.  Now I will make more use of it.  I am considering retiring to Ecuador, or some other part of Latin America.  I confirmed with GoldMoney that they would be able to wire funds from my GoldMoney account to my Ecuadorian bank account.  The bank account mainly needs to be titled in the exact same name as your GoldMoney account so that they cannot plausibly be accused of money laundering.  GoldMoney is headquartered in the Channel Islands, so they are in a relatively safe jurisdiction.  Splitting up the jurisdiction of the account, the storage location and the home country of the owner makes it very difficult for any national government to get their hands on your PMs, plus they are stored where all the most powerful and influential people will be storing their own stash. 

Two other similar companies are Bullion Vault and Hard Assets Alliance (which is a relative newcomer to the retail side of this business).  All three provide allocated (bailment) accounts, meaning that you are the legally titled owner of the PMs, not simply an unsecured creditor of GoldMoney.  Even in case of bankruptcy, you would be at the head of the line because the PMs never belonged to the service provider (GoldMoney), but to you personally.  Also these accounts are audited several times a year and the existence of your PMs are verified.  The amount of metal is reconciled with the records of the owners so as to confirm that they match exactly.  So they cannot sell more metal than is vaulted. 

I agree with you that you do not want to use an ETF like GLD.  I can't tell you anything about GTU.  If you have followed the recent news of crashing investment firms in the USA, you may know that any company where you simply "have an account" is now totally unprotected from thievery a la MFGlobal.  There is even a new appelate court ruling on a similar case that gives the green light to firms that hypothecate (borrow against) customer funds and then lose that money.  The bank they borrowed from gets the money, not you.  It's immoral, but it is the new normal.  Caveat Emptor is the new rule.

I won't prolong this discussion, but I'd be happy to correspond with you privately if you like, or answer further questions here.   
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by ochotona »

PP67 wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:19 am Do you have to file any US fed tax forms if you just buy/hold GLD?
Not if you just buy, hold and don't sell it. No reporting involved. If you sell it, that's a taxable event.
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by Libertarian666 »

ochotona wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:12 pm
PP67 wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:19 am Do you have to file any US fed tax forms if you just buy/hold GLD?
Not if you just buy, hold and don't sell it. No reporting involved. If you sell it, that's a taxable event.
Doesn't GLD sell a little bit of your holdings every year to pay the expenses?
I believe that is a reportable event.
See http://www.spdrgoldshares.com/media/GLD ... n-2019.pdf
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Re: Scared to Take the PP Jump Because of Gold

Post by ochotona »

Libertarian666 wrote: Sun Apr 12, 2020 11:19 am
ochotona wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:12 pm
PP67 wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2012 11:19 am Do you have to file any US fed tax forms if you just buy/hold GLD?
Not if you just buy, hold and don't sell it. No reporting involved. If you sell it, that's a taxable event.
Doesn't GLD sell a little bit of your holdings every year to pay the expenses?
I believe that is a reportable event.
See http://www.spdrgoldshares.com/media/GLD ... n-2019.pdf
If it doesn't show up on a 1099, does it exist as far as the IRS is concerned? And wouldn't that be the same for any ETF product?
Last edited by ochotona on Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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