Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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LazyInvestor
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Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by LazyInvestor » Sun Jul 21, 2013 7:33 am

Do you diversify among different banks in the same city for safe box gold storage or you put all your 1000 onces in just one safe box? It seems that renting multiple safe boxes raises somehow red flags for illegal activities - not sure how, just remember reading about it somewhere in the past. What would you do if you're storing in international locations such as Switzerland, Singapore, Austria, and so on?

Any other issues and tips that one should think about and follow when storing in safe boxes?
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by dualstow » Sun Jul 21, 2013 8:05 am

I don't have enough ounces to enjoy this high-class problem.
When I do, I could rent a box in my brother's name in his town, as I don't think he rents a box.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by LazyInvestor » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:04 am

I found the link indicating a number of safe box related activities that raise suspicion. I guess implementing the safest option as described in the PP book will raise a number of these red flags.

http://www.ffiec.gov/bsa_aml_infobase/p ... LM_106.htm
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by Ad Orientem » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:04 pm

I would not worry about red flags from the Feds. As long as your stash is legal they can go pound sand. Regarding storage, yes you want to use multiple safe deposit boxes at different banks if you have a significant amount of physical. If you have the high quality problem of so much gold that it exceeds convenient storage in two or at most three SD boxes then it's likely time to look at a bullion account somewhere. As for overseas storage I'd just go with the advice in the new book.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by notsheigetz » Sun Jul 21, 2013 3:19 pm

LazyInvestor wrote: Do you diversify among different banks in the same city for safe box gold storage or you put all your 1000 onces in just one safe box?
I'll have to get back with you on what I do with my 1000 ounces.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by MediumTex » Sun Jul 21, 2013 9:30 pm

Most banks will give you a free safe deposit box if you have certain types of accounts.

No rental needed.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by Larshus » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:04 pm

Ad Orientem wrote: I would not worry about red flags from the Feds. As long as your stash is legal they can go pound sand. Regarding storage, yes you want to use multiple safe deposit boxes at different banks if you have a significant amount of physical. If you have the high quality problem of so much gold that it exceeds convenient storage in two or at most three SD boxes then it's likely time to look at a bullion account somewhere. As for overseas storage I'd just go with the advice in the new book.
I would worry. there have been many instances where the Feds have opened up ALL the deposit boxes in a bank. For instance during world war II the Feds mandated that ALL boxes in Hawaii be opened up. People had to turn in all their cash for special "brown seal" notes of equal value. The idea was if Hawaii was captured the brown seals could be made worthless overnight.

Another instance at the same time was when all the U.S. Japanese were illegally interred in containment camps in the U.S. All their boxes were raided and seized.

It can, and has happened. I would be very careful putting all my eggs in one basket.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by Ad Orientem » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:19 pm

Larshus wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: I would not worry about red flags from the Feds. As long as your stash is legal they can go pound sand. Regarding storage, yes you want to use multiple safe deposit boxes at different banks if you have a significant amount of physical. If you have the high quality problem of so much gold that it exceeds convenient storage in two or at most three SD boxes then it's likely time to look at a bullion account somewhere. As for overseas storage I'd just go with the advice in the new book.
I would worry. there have been many instances where the Feds have opened up ALL the deposit boxes in a bank. For instance during world war II the Feds mandated that ALL boxes in Hawaii be opened up. People had to turn in all their cash for special "brown seal" notes of equal value. The idea was if Hawaii was captured the brown seals could be made worthless overnight.

Another instance at the same time was when all the U.S. Japanese were illegally interred in containment camps in the U.S. All their boxes were raided and seized.

It can, and has happened. I would be very careful putting all my eggs in one basket.
I think that is the reason why Harry advised holding some of your wealth overseas. If there is a mass move towards confiscation (which I find extremely unlikely) there is little you can do about it if your gold is within the United States. My advice was intended for whatever gold you choose to keep in-country with the understanding that overseas storage is the safest course. But for gold held in the US, a bank safe deposit box is far safer than home storage or any other method I am aware of.

Odds of government confiscation vs odds of armed home invasion or burglary.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by MediumTex » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:46 pm

Larshus wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote: I would not worry about red flags from the Feds. As long as your stash is legal they can go pound sand. Regarding storage, yes you want to use multiple safe deposit boxes at different banks if you have a significant amount of physical. If you have the high quality problem of so much gold that it exceeds convenient storage in two or at most three SD boxes then it's likely time to look at a bullion account somewhere. As for overseas storage I'd just go with the advice in the new book.
I would worry. there have been many instances where the Feds have opened up ALL the deposit boxes in a bank.
Do you have any examples of this sort of thing happening more recently than the mid-1940s?
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by Larshus » Wed Jul 24, 2013 8:43 am

No. Last I'm aware of was world war 2. 1933 before that. There have of course been individual searches... I'm referring to mass searches.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by Ad Orientem » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:23 am

Larshus wrote: No. Last I'm aware of was world war 2. 1933 before that. There have of course been individual searches... I'm referring to mass searches.
During wartime, with a widely credited threat of imminent invasion, things are going to happen. I am not defending all of the measures taken. But in the context of the time and events, we had just been attacked, some are understandable. Also the mass safe deposit box searches and seizures of 1933 never happened. That's just gold bug mythology.

Still, I believe that the safest course is to store most of your gold overseas if that can be done without major inconvenience.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by Larshus » Wed Jul 24, 2013 10:50 am

As far as the 33 thing.. its partially true. It happened during the subsequent bank failures. So they weren't searched till a bank failed and the fed took possession of the boxes for safekeeping purposes. At that point the boxes were searched. Any bullion past the allotted 5 of each date/mintmark ect were taken. You are correct however that it did not happen en mass at every bank, nor did it happen right as the executive order was signed. I should have been more exact in my wording.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by notsheigetz » Wed Jul 24, 2013 5:26 pm

Ad Orientem wrote: No. Last I'm aware of was world war 2. 1933 before that. There have of course been individual searches... I'm referring to mass searches.
I don't think governments could get away with the confiscation of gold nowadays, or ever again probably. I think they are stuck with doing all they can to prevent direct ownership and driving down the price as much as possible.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by smurff » Sun Jul 28, 2013 8:26 pm

Ad Orientem wrote:
During wartime, with a widely credited threat of imminent invasion, things are going to happen. I am not defending all of the measures taken. But in the context of the time and events, we had just been attacked, some are understandable.
We are in wartime right now, in a variety of different wars (Afghanistan hot war currently; Iraq recently even though there was an alleged pullout; threats back and forth between the USA and North Korea, Iran, and Syria; interference in Libya; handwringing over Egypt--the list is long).  There is moreover a real drone war against al-QAeda and and their allies, with the list/definition of "allies" a matter of national security--meaning there could be enough flexibility to include anyone inconvenient.

But I agree that right now the federal gov is not planning on any mass confiscation of gold or opening of safe deposit boxes, and if they tried the outcry against it would be great enough to stop it.  Don't know about the future, however.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by Ad Orientem » Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:42 pm

smurff wrote:
Ad Orientem wrote:
During wartime, with a widely credited threat of imminent invasion, things are going to happen. I am not defending all of the measures taken. But in the context of the time and events, we had just been attacked, some are understandable.
We are in wartime right now, in a variety of different wars (Afghanistan hot war currently; Iraq recently even though there was an alleged pullout; threats back and forth between the USA and North Korea, Iran, and Syria; interference in Libya; handwringing over Egypt--the list is long).  There is moreover a real drone war against al-QAeda and and their allies, with the list/definition of "allies" a matter of national security--meaning there could be enough flexibility to include anyone inconvenient.

But I agree that right now the federal gov is not planning on any mass confiscation of gold or opening of safe deposit boxes, and if they tried the outcry against it would be great enough to stop it.  Don't know about the future, however.
I think the situation is a bit different. In late 1941 and early '42 we had just been sucker-punched at Pearl Harbor. Most of the Pacific Fleet was destroyed. There were real fears of a Japanese invasion. Some enemy troops did actually invade and occupy some islands that were part of Alaska. On at least one occasion an enemy submarine bombarded a coastal town in Northern California. US Overseas Territory was invaded and occupied with dreadful atrocities committed against both POWs and civilians.

It was a different time.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by MediumTex » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:50 am

smurff wrote: But I agree that right now the federal gov is not planning on any mass confiscation of gold or opening of safe deposit boxes, and if they tried the outcry against it would be great enough to stop it.  Don't know about the future, however.
I always figured that before the federal government seriously considered confiscating anyone's gold, they would first stop minting and selling gold coins.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by smurff » Mon Jul 29, 2013 8:22 am

That makes perfect sense.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 9:07 am

MediumTex wrote:
smurff wrote: But I agree that right now the federal gov is not planning on any mass confiscation of gold or opening of safe deposit boxes, and if they tried the outcry against it would be great enough to stop it.  Don't know about the future, however.
I always figured that before the federal government seriously considered confiscating anyone's gold, they would first stop minting and selling gold coins.
Why? The more they sell, the more they can confiscate!
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by MediumTex » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:57 am

Libertarian666 wrote:
MediumTex wrote:
smurff wrote: But I agree that right now the federal gov is not planning on any mass confiscation of gold or opening of safe deposit boxes, and if they tried the outcry against it would be great enough to stop it.  Don't know about the future, however.
I always figured that before the federal government seriously considered confiscating anyone's gold, they would first stop minting and selling gold coins.
Why? The more they sell, the more they can confiscate!
Are you suggesting that the U.S. government would continue selling gold coins at the same time that it was confiscating the gold coins that people had bought?

That doesn't make any sense to me.

That would be like the government banning assault rifles after opening up a chain of "Uncle Sam Assault Rifle Shops."
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by murphy_p_t » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:23 pm

MediumTex wrote: That would be like the government banning assault rifles after opening up a chain of "Uncle Sam Assault Rifle Shops."
see Fast and Furious (gunrunning, not the movie)
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by Libertarian666 » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:22 pm

MediumTex wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:
MediumTex wrote: I always figured that before the federal government seriously considered confiscating anyone's gold, they would first stop minting and selling gold coins.
Why? The more they sell, the more they can confiscate!
Are you suggesting that the U.S. government would continue selling gold coins at the same time that it was confiscating the gold coins that people had bought?

That doesn't make any sense to me.

That would be like the government banning assault rifles after opening up a chain of "Uncle Sam Assault Rifle Shops."
Are you under the mistaken impression that government actions generally make sense?
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:43 pm

Libertarian666 brings up a good point. Plenty of government actions make no sense for the simple reason that different departments and agencies are responsible for different things. It's entirely possible for Agency A to be pursuing a policy entirely contravened by Agency B, or Law C, or court decision D, or point of common sense D.

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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by MediumTex » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:11 am

Another thing I don't understand about the gold confiscation scenarios is why the government would want anyone's gold. 

We're not on a gold standard, so it wouldn't improve the backing for the currency.

We will never go back onto a gold standard because politicians and central bankers hate it.

And the U.S. government is already the largest holder of gold in the world.  What would be the point of obtaining more through confiscation?
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by Pointedstick » Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:19 am

I don't think they would want to have it, necessarily. That just wouldn't want YOU to have it. If capital controls become more strict and people start fleeing with gold, I could see restrictions on it as a crude, clumsy means of trying to inhibit the ability of people to use it to evade them.
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Re: Bank safe box storage diversification and other tips

Post by goodasgold » Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:19 am

Pointedstick wrote: Libertarian666 brings up a good point. Plenty of government actions make no sense for the simple reason that different departments and agencies are responsible for different things. It's entirely possible for Agency A to be pursuing a policy entirely contravened by Agency B, or Law C, or court decision D, or point of common sense D.

Yep, just look at tobacco. The Agricultural Dept. of the Federal government spends huge amounts of money subsidizing tobacco farmers, while the Dept. of Health spends lots of money to discourage smoking.  ::)
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