Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Discussion of the Gold portion of the Permanent Portfolio

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AdamA
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by AdamA » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:36 am

sixdollars wrote:
AdamA wrote: Good discussion here.

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/gold/perth-mint/

There are a lot of good posts by the user named Bronsuchecki.  He works there, I think.
Isn't that discussion with regards to the certificate program which had a 10k minimum? I believe this new one doesn't have this requirement unless I'm missing something.

https://www.perthmint.com/storage
Ah...yes, you're right.  I didn't understand initially.

I would like to hear what Bronchecki has to say about it, if he still posts here. 
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by AdamA » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:39 am

MachineGhost wrote:
Yeah, but no one with a brain would use unallocated storage except as a temporary parking place. 
I'm not sure I agree.  I think either you trust the mint or you don't. 

If they're not honest enough to honor the unallocated storage, then why would anyone expect them to honor the allocated storage?
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by Cortopassi » Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:00 am

Gold is the ultimate safety net of everything going to crap.  At least that's what a lot of people believe, me included.  Maybe it is unwarranted and things hopefully will never get that bad.

However, for those who have their (for example) stock portion in VTI, bonds in TLT, cash in a money market, gold in GLD or similar, a global event could make all of that inaccessible for an undetermined length of time.

I'd suggest at least some portion of cash and gold reasonably readily available.  Whether that means a safe deposit box at a local bank, under your mattress or in your own 1000lb TL-30 rated safe, I don't know, but somewhere closer than Australia would make me feel more comfortable!
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by MachineGhost » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:14 pm

What I wonder is what exactly is the diffrence between the Online Program and the Depository Program???  The fees for both are all the same, as is the Certificate Program.  Just another relatively bad deal.  Maybe Perth is just too much the armpit of Australia to have economies of scale to lower costs?
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by MachineGhost » Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:24 pm

AdamA wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:
Yeah, but no one with a brain would use unallocated storage except as a temporary parking place. 
I'm not sure I agree.  I think either you trust the mint or you don't. 

If they're not honest enough to honor the unallocated storage, then why would anyone expect them to honor the allocated storage?
That's not the point.  It's about title and ownership.  You don't own anything in unallocated storage and have no legal claim on it.  It's a liability on the books of Perth Mint and there is no guarantee there is enough gold readily available at any one time to supply withdrawal demand.  In other words, there's no FR or FDIC to deal with a "bank run".  Unallocated gold is like going back to the past and suffering the same "wildcat banking" indignities all over again.

A real asset is only "real" if its literally real.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by Libertarian666 » Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:54 pm

sophie wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:
sophie wrote: globalgold looks really good, except for the minimum of 50,000 CHF.
I wouldn't think that would be a big problem for most of the people on this forum.
I guess you have a big taxable stash!  Congrats are in order.  Or maybe you don't contribute much to tax advantaged accounts?  Tax deferral/Roth is a big enough deal in my high tax heaven here that tax advantaged account contributions take precedence over all else.
I'm in retirement (mostly) so I don't contribute to tax advantaged accounts.

And actually I cashed out a bunch of retirement accounts a few years ago before tax rates went up, so now I don't have much left in tax advantaged accounts.

Of course Roths don't help with current taxation either, just future taxation. If they don't change the rules, that is...
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by Hal » Wed Apr 27, 2016 6:57 am

This might help

https://www.perthmint.com/storage/

also a friend uses this service in Singapore ( Jim Sinclair info:  http://www.jsmineset.com/2013/11/23/jim ... nge-sgpmx/ )

http://www.sgpmx.com/services/secured_storage/

From what I understand, its stored in a duty free vault at the airport
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by JohnnyFactor » Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:14 pm

Bron Suchecki has stated that unallocated is fully backed by physical at all times. They will not sell you an ounce if they don't physically have it. Perth Mint is a manufacturer not a lender, so they do not fractionalize or lease their gold. It's all spelled out here:
https://www.perthmint.com/storage/help/ ... torage-fee

The 5% fee to convert to allocated is the fabrication cost of making bars and coins. It's pretty close to a typical bullion dealers markup and I consider it a wash, compared to other choices.
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by vnatale » Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:43 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:00 am
Gold is the ultimate safety net of everything going to crap.  At least that's what a lot of people believe, me included.  Maybe it is unwarranted and things hopefully will never get that bad.

However, for those who have their (for example) stock portion in VTI, bonds in TLT, cash in a money market, gold in GLD or similar, a global event could make all of that inaccessible for an undetermined length of time.

I'd suggest at least some portion of cash and gold reasonably readily available.  Whether that means a safe deposit box at a local bank, under your mattress or in your own 1000lb TL-30 rated safe, I don't know, but somewhere closer than Australia would make me feel more comfortable!
We are currently in the midst of a "global event" (it this an "event" or "a period of time" (of indeterminate length at this point)?).

So far has any of the four been made inaccessible for any length of time?

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by pmward » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:24 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 8:43 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:00 am
Gold is the ultimate safety net of everything going to crap.  At least that's what a lot of people believe, me included.  Maybe it is unwarranted and things hopefully will never get that bad.

However, for those who have their (for example) stock portion in VTI, bonds in TLT, cash in a money market, gold in GLD or similar, a global event could make all of that inaccessible for an undetermined length of time.

I'd suggest at least some portion of cash and gold reasonably readily available.  Whether that means a safe deposit box at a local bank, under your mattress or in your own 1000lb TL-30 rated safe, I don't know, but somewhere closer than Australia would make me feel more comfortable!
We are currently in the midst of a "global event" (it this an "event" or "a period of time" (of indeterminate length at this point)?).

So far has any of the four been made inaccessible for any length of time?

Vinny
Well individual treasury bonds went no bid at times two weeks ago. If you needed to sell an individual treasury bond there was not always someone there willing to buy for any price. It was the individual bond itself that had that illiquidity effect, not the ETF. In the bond ETF's like TLT instead of not being able to access the cash, this instead manifested in the ETF's trading lower than NAV. Unlike the individual bonds, you could still sell the ETFs (as the ETF's are more liquid than the underlying bonds) but you had to pay for that liquidity during the crunch. So there were differing tradeoffs both to individual bond holders and ETF holders, and both played out slightly differently. Mutual funds likely also went below NAV, but they do not update their NAV figures daily like ETF's do, they only update at end of quarter. And since end of quarter is today, and the Fed restored liquidity to the market, we cannot know for sure how much this effected mutual funds. The takeaway, there is no safe way to hold anything. There are always tradeoffs. Having diversity in the ways you hold bonds and gold is probably good (some physical, some ETF, some mutual funds, etc) to counterbalance the risks.
Last edited by pmward on Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by dualstow » Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:28 pm

Hey, he said "a global event could..."
not
all global events will...
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by vnatale » Tue Mar 31, 2020 8:23 pm

dualstow wrote:
Tue Mar 31, 2020 4:28 pm
Hey, he said "a global event could..."
not
all global events will...
Yes. That is exactly why I worded my question as so: "So far has any of the four been made inaccessible for any length of time?" I was asking by whatever definition he choses to use if he believed any of them have yet qualified to meet his definition.

Vinny
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by AdamA » Tue Mar 31, 2020 9:18 pm

I think it's all still accessible, but I did get this confusing email from the Perth Mint a few days ago.

There’s no doubt COVID-19 is having a huge impact on us all. At The Perth Mint, our focus is on the health and wellbeing of our staff as well as the continued service to our customers throughout Australia and beyond.

In the past few weeks, my team and I have introduced rolling shifts across dual sites to ensure safe distancing between our employees as well as adopting remote working options and increased hygiene practices in accordance with current government guidelines.

Right now, we are experiencing unprecedented demand. Our precious metal volumes remain high, though there may be some delays and temporary shortages of specific items we manufacture. Our teams are doing the very best they can, so your patience is greatly appreciated.

The Perth Mint has been proudly operating since 1899 and we take our responsibility as one of Australia’s largest exporters seriously. We fully intend to continue our service to all customers throughout this period. Together, we know we will all get through this.

As a State Government trading enterprise, all our operations are guaranteed by the Government of Western Australia. This is your assurance of trust in us and our unflagging commitment to you.

Our Refinery

The Perth Mint is not dependent on funding from any external providers, ensuring there is no risk of default or non-payment for our mining customers.
We continue to refine more than 90 percent of Australia’s gold production, our refinery remains open and this volume is not decreasing.
Trusted as a partner to the Australian mining industry for over 120 years, we have the knowledge, experience and technology to continue operating in this challenging time.
Our Depository

The Perth Mint offers the world’s only government guaranteed suite of tailored storage and investment programs.
With the largest network of central bank-grade vaults in the southern hemisphere The Perth Mint is one of the safest places in the world to buy and store precious metals.
We’re currently receiving higher than usual call volumes so please be patient with our teams should you experience delays. Should you need to contact our office, please ensure you have your account number, account name and password ready
Our Minted Products and Bullion

As the inaugural producer of the official Australian bullion coin program, we are experiencing an all-time high-level demand for our products.
Our production teams are working tirelessly to meet customer demand. Please be patient if a particular item that you are after is delayed.
Our Shop and Exhibition

For your health and safety, our showrooms, guided tours and exhibition are currently closed. Gifts, jewellery and minted products are still available online.
Bullion and gold jewellery buy-back services are operating from our East Perth location, Monday to Friday from 9am – 5pm. Social distancing requirements will be required.
From all of us here at The Perth Mint, we want to extend strength and good health to everyone around the world during this challenging time. We thank you for your continued support.

Richard Hayes, Chief Executive Officer, The Perth Mint
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by williswine » Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:15 pm

I've been a happy Perth Mint Depository Program account holder since last year for unallocated gold. I haven't received this email but all my dealings with the mint have been flawless. I should post on this separately.

This year, I have enough in the account that I need to report it on form 8938. This account is in my name only. I think it is considered a "Foreign Deposit Account" so has to be reported in Part I rather than II and also in Part V rather than VI of form 8938. What is not super clear to me is whether such account for unallocated gold count as a "Deposit Acccount" (my current interpretation) or as a "Custodial Account". Do some of you have had to report such account, and if so, did you report as deposit or custodial?
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by williswine » Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:41 pm

williswine wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:15 pm
This year, I have enough in the account that I need to report it on form 8938. This account is in my name only. I think it is considered a "Foreign Deposit Account" so has to be reported in Part I rather than II and also in Part V rather than VI of form 8938. What is not super clear to me is whether such account for unallocated gold count as a "Deposit Acccount" (my current interpretation) or as a "Custodial Account". Do some of you have had to report such account, and if so, did you report as deposit or custodial?
Sophie, ahrunforthehills: seeing your previous posts on the forum, would you perhaps be able to chime in here?
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by ahhrunforthehills » Tue Apr 07, 2020 10:17 am

williswine wrote:
Sun Apr 05, 2020 2:41 pm
williswine wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:15 pm
This year, I have enough in the account that I need to report it on form 8938. This account is in my name only. I think it is considered a "Foreign Deposit Account" so has to be reported in Part I rather than II and also in Part V rather than VI of form 8938. What is not super clear to me is whether such account for unallocated gold count as a "Deposit Acccount" (my current interpretation) or as a "Custodial Account". Do some of you have had to report such account, and if so, did you report as deposit or custodial?
Sophie, ahrunforthehills: seeing your previous posts on the forum, would you perhaps be able to chime in here?
Sure, I just whipped out my tax return. Perth always seem to be in that gray area of reporting... but i don't mess around with my Uncle Sam.

We report on both our FBAR and Form 8938.

Form 8938: My Part II and III are blank. Part V, Box 1 - Custodial (Not Deposit)

FBAR: Part III, Box 16 Type of account = Other (Commodities)

I declare the highest monthly balance that I had for the year in US Dollars.

A side note, you can ask the Perth to email you monthly statements for your records.

Not sure how relevant this is, but several years I had a REALLY EXPENSIVE tax adviser (and when I say "adviser", I mean he gave advice but rarely filled out any forms).

This guy followed what happened in tax court like a hawk, would speak before congress, specialized in international taxation, had lots of connections, etc. He had stories that were crazy. Anyways, he would tell me that it is always best to bury the IRS in information.

The more you give them, the less ammo they will have to hold penalties over you in tax court. In some ways, the burden shifts to them since you went above and beyond providing them with the information. They can't really claim that you were purposely withholding information when what really happened is their tax forms make no frickin sense and even CPA put crap in the wrong box. Penalties are the lifeblood of the IRS. Take that away from them and you are a lot less of a juicy target. At least... that was the general gist of what I interpreted from him.

Another side note, the IRS recently made it so you can download your tax transcripts off of their website at any time. This is pretty quick and easy transparency to make sure you and Uncle Sam are on the same page.

IMPORTANT NOTE: I am not a tax professional and am not providing any advice. The above is just what I did and what I heard, not necessarily what you should do or make decisions on. Consult a tax professional.
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by sophie » Tue Apr 07, 2020 4:52 pm

Thanks ahrun!!! I haven't had to file that form yet, just the FBAR. Next year, probably.
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by williswine » Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:25 pm

Thank you very much ahrunforthehills! I originally considered Perth Mint accounts to be custodial. I've been oscillating between the two possible choices reading the IRC and trying to interpret it. It's of course thorny but what seems to matter is that the mint is not a bank. I should share my analysis when I can find the time.

Meanwhile, I would appreciate if you could share whether your account is a PMDP (offline) as opposed to a PMDO (online) and whether its gold is allocated or unallocated. I don't think the latter matters as far as how to categorize the account but at some point I was wondering if allocated would be custodial while unallocated would be depository. Of course, these accounts having "Depository" in their names does not help yet doesn't mean categorizing as custodial is wrong. Just adds to the confusion!

Another question is whether you're aware of anything a US taxpayer (who has no connection to Australia other than such account) has to do to comply with any Australian tax office requirement. My research indicated there is nothing special to do in that case since the tax residence of the taxpayer is US rather than Australian but of course I would be interested in hearing from you based on your experience.

I wasn't aware the mint could provide monthly statements. I should ask them!

I am not sure to follow how the transcripts help with regards to making sure a taxpayer and the IRS are on the same page. I guess I'll have to download myself. I believe it was impossible for a while.
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by vnatale » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:04 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
Mon Apr 25, 2016 7:04 pm
This is the best news in a long time!!!
How can unallocated be 100% backed, yet there is no storage fee?

Unlike other depositories, which are merely warehouses, The Perth Mint is a manufacturer of precious metal products and one of the world's largest refiners. Accordingly, we have a substantial requirement for physical metal to support these operations.

To fund this working inventory, we traditionally borrowed metal from bullion banks, at cost. At the same time, investors were depositing metal with bullion banks and others and being charged storage fees.

We realised there was an opportunity to cut out the intermediary and take deposits directly from investors. The Perth Mint's unallocated is thus a win-win situation: we get to "borrow" precious metal to use in our business for free and you get 100% backed safe storage of your precious metal for free.

We don't charge storage fees on unallocated because the costs of vaulting and insuring our working inventories of gold and silver are part of our business and covered by the fabrication fees we charge for our bars and coins - we would incur these costs whether our metal was sourced from you or a bullion bank. We charge storage fees on allocated and pool allocated because we incur additional vaulting and insurance costs for storing this custodial precious metal.
Still, its a liability of Perth and not your asset.  It is a Ponzi scheme if you request "your" metal.  And if they have to source it outside of other Ponzi scheme participants due to excess demand in a crisis, you may not receive "your" metal at all while the price continues to skyrocket.

They have very steep transanction fees, allocated storage fees and fabrication fees.  Not much has changed.
Anyone else share MachineGhost's position on Perth Mint?

Vinny
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by vnatale » Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:17 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:24 pm
AdamA wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:
Yeah, but no one with a brain would use unallocated storage except as a temporary parking place. 
I'm not sure I agree.  I think either you trust the mint or you don't. 

If they're not honest enough to honor the unallocated storage, then why would anyone expect them to honor the allocated storage?
That's not the point.  It's about title and ownership.  You don't own anything in unallocated storage and have no legal claim on it.  It's a liability on the books of Perth Mint and there is no guarantee there is enough gold readily available at any one time to supply withdrawal demand.  In other words, there's no FR or FDIC to deal with a "bank run".  Unallocated gold is like going back to the past and suffering the same "wildcat banking" indignities all over again.

A real asset is only "real" if its literally real.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MachineGhost wisdom? Or, not?

Vinny
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by Libertarian666 » Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:24 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:17 pm
MachineGhost wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:24 pm
AdamA wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:
Yeah, but no one with a brain would use unallocated storage except as a temporary parking place. 
I'm not sure I agree.  I think either you trust the mint or you don't. 

If they're not honest enough to honor the unallocated storage, then why would anyone expect them to honor the allocated storage?
That's not the point.  It's about title and ownership.  You don't own anything in unallocated storage and have no legal claim on it.  It's a liability on the books of Perth Mint and there is no guarantee there is enough gold readily available at any one time to supply withdrawal demand.  In other words, there's no FR or FDIC to deal with a "bank run".  Unallocated gold is like going back to the past and suffering the same "wildcat banking" indignities all over again.

A real asset is only "real" if its literally real.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MachineGhost wisdom? Or, not?

Vinny
Yes. There's something amiss if they aren't charging you for storage.
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Re: Perth Mint Online Depository Program

Post by Hal » Thu Apr 30, 2020 8:25 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Thu Apr 30, 2020 7:24 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 8:17 pm
MachineGhost wrote:
Tue Apr 26, 2016 3:24 pm
AdamA wrote:
MachineGhost wrote:
Yeah, but no one with a brain would use unallocated storage except as a temporary parking place. 
I'm not sure I agree.  I think either you trust the mint or you don't. 

If they're not honest enough to honor the unallocated storage, then why would anyone expect them to honor the allocated storage?
That's not the point.  It's about title and ownership.  You don't own anything in unallocated storage and have no legal claim on it.  It's a liability on the books of Perth Mint and there is no guarantee there is enough gold readily available at any one time to supply withdrawal demand.  In other words, there's no FR or FDIC to deal with a "bank run".  Unallocated gold is like going back to the past and suffering the same "wildcat banking" indignities all over again.

A real asset is only "real" if its literally real.
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

MachineGhost wisdom? Or, not?

Vinny
Yes. There's something amiss if they aren't charging you for storage.
The Perth Mints unallocated gold is physical gold being processed. So it is real, however not immediately deliverable ie. Molten Gold in a furnace. The Mint is owned by the Western Australian Government so it's not a private entity.

That said, I only hold allocated gold/silver there as a part of my retirement account.
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