Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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Pointedstick
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Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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So the the U.S. Navy's new Zumwalt-class destroyer has been launched--at the cost of more than $7 billion per ship (more than half the cost of an aircraft carrier), and its only non-missile weapons are a pair of guns that have no ammunition!

I posit that the Zumwalt destroyer is everything that's wrong with the U.S. government.

First of all, the very reason for this ship's existence is to provide naval gun-based shore bombardment--a dubious aim in today's era of long-range guided missiles and carrier-launched aircraft, both of which are perfectly capable of doing the same job, and striking targets much farther inland, too. The only real advantages of naval gun-based shore bombardment are psychological shock value and cost-effectiveness (cruise missiles and aircraft-delivered munitions are expensive).

So how does the Zumwalt destroyer do when it comes to cost-effective demoralizing naval shore bombardment?

Let's start with cost-effectiveness: the new gun's fancy shells cost $800,000 each to deliver 24 pounds of explosive 68 miles. By contrast, existing Tomahawk cruise missiles cost $2m apiece (2.5 times as much) but deliver 1,000 pounds of explosives (41 times more) at a distance of more than 800 miles (11 times farther). Due to its low cost-efficiency, the program to develop this ammunition was canceled right after Trump's inauguration, presumably by one of the many sane generals in his administration.

As for psychological impact, even if there was any ammo available, the shells are only 1.1" larger in diameter than existing U.S. naval guns' ammunition. Not much of a bigger bang--certainly nothing like the 16" guns used for naval bombardment until the 1980s, which is what the Marine Corps really wanted.

So the guns have no ammo, even if they did, it wouldn't be much scarier than what they replace. But wait! These are 155mm guns, theoretically allowing them to fire standard and inexpensive 155mm artillery shells to salvage the program. But for some bizarre reason compatibility with existing ammunition stocks was not a goal. It will cost an estimated $250m per ship to retrofit the guns to fire the artillery shells with a much lower rate of fire and range, or an Italian-developed long-range guided 5" shell that it could have fired from day 1 if they had just chosen a standard 5" gun of the type that already arms every other Navy warship.

The total cost of this boondoggle was more than $22 billion. Coulda paid for a lotta high-speed trains with that money...
Last edited by Pointedstick on Sun Apr 30, 2017 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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+100
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

Post by Kriegsspiel »

War is a racket. Even worse would be running the last racket.
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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There's more. The USA now has "littoral combat ships"--designed to fight effectively in coastal waters, harbors, and deep rivers.

The obvious question is, did we not have this capability before? It's not at all obvious. But regardless, we now have a littoral combat ship. Or more precisely, two littoral combat ships:

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Yes, that's right, the U.S. Navy bought two classes of ship that each do the exact same thing! How did this happen? Well, they bid out the project and had two military contractors produce different designs to see which one they liked more. All taxpayer money, of course: basically paying twice the R&D. Once each ship was done, of course it seemed silly to completely abandon one of them--the R&D was already done, you see--and each one performs fine.

Or does it? It turns out that these ships suffered from the very same problem as the Zumwalt destroyer: feature and mission creep. Originally intended to be heavily-armed fast throwaway swarm ships, they ballooned to be the size and weight of heavy corvettes, impairing their ability to actually operate in the shallow-water littoral zone. And as heavy corvettes, they're not particularly well-armed or armored. Instead of being heavily-armed for their size, they're quite under-gunned, principally armed with a single 57mm gun. They have no offensive anti-ship or anti-ground missiles, and one of them doesn't even have a self-defense CIWS gun (the Zumwalt destroyer doesn't, either). They're very lightly-armored, and are expected to be abandoned if damaged--a hard pill to swallow given that each one costs more than $350 million if purchased in volume (the first of each cost more than $700 million).

So what are they good for? Well, they carry helicopters, so anti-submarine and anti-mine operations are an obvious choice--you know, to defeat all those Islamic terrorist submarines and naval minefields. ::) One of them has anti-air missiles at least. And they do have some machine guns and cannons, for protection against fast-moving boats. Of course, all the other U.S. Navy ships are armed with small rapid-firing 5" guns that can do the same job--from a longer distance, too. And internationally, there are versions that are even faster-firing and longer-range, doing that job even better.

Somehow, the U.S. Navy keeps getting less for more. Let's compare and contrast to the Norwegian Skjold-class corvette- a purpose-built ship if ever there was one:

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This ship is very fast, 1/3 the cost, has such a shallow draft that it can operate in nearly all rivers. It's armed with a larger 76mm main gun and carries 8 long-range anti-ship missiles.


Or the Swedish Visby-class corvette:

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1/2 the cost of a littoral combat ship and again it has a much shallower draft and it's more heavily armed: it has the same sized main gun, but includes anti-ship missiles, torpedoes, and mines.


It seems over time that the U.S. Navy is turning into the department of education: money keeps getting plowed into projects, but there's not much intelligence behind any of them, so the money just ends up lining the pockets of special interests and the result is a lackluster disappointment.
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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Interesting stuff! Where did you read it?
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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dualstow wrote:Interesting stuff! Where did you read it?
Quite a few sources; too many to list. But you can get a good general overview on their Wikipedia pages:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt_destroyer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... ort_debate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Littoral_combat_ship

I could go on. The F-35 Joint Strike Fighter may be even worse.
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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Let me also mention that this is the faults of Bush and Obama--both of them. It all started under Bush with Rumsfeld, whose military doctrine emphasized high-tech toys over practical equipment and boots on the ground. That's when all these ill-fated programs started or got real funding. Then under Obama, there were virtually no military-minded people at all to notice things getting off track or stand up to the military-industrial complex. They basically let the them run the show, being unable to marshall the experience necessary to contradict the seeming experts.

One promising sign with Trump is the large number of sober-minded military people in his administration. I have high hopes that they'll rein in some of this incredible waste.
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

Post by Xan »

Reminds me of the fantastic short story (it really is just a few minutes' read) by Arthur C Clarke, "Superiority".
We were defeated by one thing only - by the inferior science of our enemies. I repeat - by the inferior science of our enemies.
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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Xan wrote:Reminds me of the fantastic short story (it really is just a few minutes' read) by Arthur C Clarke, "Superiority".
We were defeated by one thing only - by the inferior science of our enemies. I repeat - by the inferior science of our enemies.
Thanks, Xan for the story link. I had never read Superiority. Arthur C. Clarke is one of my favorite science fiction writers.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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Yes, thanks Xan! An excellent, humorous, topical story.
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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There's an even shorter analysis: it's a State.
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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Libertarian666 wrote:There's an even shorter analysis: it's a State.
So the states of Finland, Sweden, Norway, Israel, Italy and many others have far superior and more cost-effective ships because...?
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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Pointedstick wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:There's an even shorter analysis: it's a State.
So the states of Finland, Sweden, Norway, Israel, Italy and many others have far superior and more cost-effective ships because...?
Because those States waste their people's money in other ways.
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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Libertarian666 wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:There's an even shorter analysis: it's a State.
So the states of Finland, Sweden, Norway, Israel, Italy and many others have far superior and more cost-effective ships because...?
Because those States waste their people's money in other ways.
Conservation of Incompetence, huh?
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Re: Everything that is wrong with the U.S. government

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Pointedstick wrote:
Libertarian666 wrote:
Pointedstick wrote: So the states of Finland, Sweden, Norway, Israel, Italy and many others have far superior and more cost-effective ships because...?
Because those States waste their people's money in other ways.
Conservation of Incompetence, huh?
I'm not sure that is a law, although the incompetence and venality have to show up somewhere.

Maybe they have a better class of prisoners? I know if you exclude a certain demographic group from the statistics in the US, the picture looks much different...
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