ICE Raids

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Cortopassi
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ICE Raids

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:27 am

People who are here illegally, shouldn't they be concerned at all times about being found out and deported? Vs. these specific "raid" times?

I truly don't understand. If you are here illegally, why are Americans out protesting the raids? Is it not the law that they can't be here? Has the US generally looked the other way for a very long time, and many have established themselves (how?)?

Employers who hire illegals, are they ever prosecuted? If an illegal can't get a job here, is there any reason to stay? Can you get "free" government stuff if you are illegal?

Seems like all this is some level of theater on both sides.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by Maddy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 3:52 pm

I've been meaning to read the court's opinion, but I'm with you--I can't fathom how you can exclude from a census designed to count citizens for purposes of apportioning representatives any mechanism for identifying and counting citizens. But I'm past looking for logic when it comes to these things. The entire left side of the country has gone feral.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by ochotona » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:35 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:55 pm
Agree. While were trying to 'splain that, someone can cue me into the logic (and outrage) of counting illegals in the census. Why should states get money for people who aren't here legally in the first place?
The Constitution itself calls for Representative districts to be drawn based on number of Free Persons, but slaves were only counted as 3/5 of a Person. It doesn't say to count Citizens.

Lots of things that were and are wrong about the country are encapsulated below. I can just imagine the battle that raged over this language. I'll bet the slave-holding wanker plantation owner politicians wanted to inflate their political power in Washington by partly counting their slaves, but oh, they aren't really fully people, just 3/5. If you counted a slave as 100% a person... then gosh, you couldn't really morally own them, could you? So they gerrymandered and goal-seeked that fraction to get them the desired outcome. Wow, who needed Excel in the 19th century?

The South was lightly populated relative to the North. By having more Southern votes in the House, this probably extended slavery by decades.

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------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Article 1, Section 2 of the United States Constitution:

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which
may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be
determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to
Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other
Persons.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by Maddy » Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:47 pm

Octonia, are you maintaining that representatives may be apportioned to persons who are present in the country illegally? I don't see history as supporting that contention since slaves and women at least had a lawful presence.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:22 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:27 am
Seems like all this is some level of theater on both sides.
I think the theater-factor has been cranked up, which makes the illegals more concerned about being deported. Or maybe it makes the media more concerned about the illegals being concerned about being deported, I don't know. People are protesting the raids because they have severe TDS.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by ochotona » Mon Jul 15, 2019 7:29 pm

Maddy wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:47 pm
Octonia, are you maintaining that representatives may be apportioned to persons who are present in the country illegally? I don't see history as supporting that contention since slaves and women at least had a lawful presence.
I think that's exactly what it has meant for these many years. I think that's how they do it.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by shekels » Tue Jul 16, 2019 8:52 am

The Trump administration is moving to end asylum protections for most Central American migrants, the Departments of Justice and Homeland Security announced Monday.
According to text of the rule set to publish in the Federal Register on Tuesday, asylum seekers who pass through another country before reaching the United States will be ineligible for asylum when they reach the southern border.

https://thehill.com/latino/453050-trump ... ico-border
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by ochotona » Tue Jul 16, 2019 9:12 am

I think we should accept asylum apps in the countries where the people live. They can submit whatever kind of docs they want. The exact same thing they would submit to an immigrant court here, right? And their photos and fingerprints. Then we review the docs, and approve or deny. If denied, and if they ever show up in the USA, immediate deportation.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by WiseOne » Tue Jul 16, 2019 10:44 am

Everything said above is completely correct:

- It is completely appropriate to want to know how many residents are citizens, green card/visa holders, and illegal immigrants.
- The use of asylum applications by the caravans of illegal immigrants is an attempt to game the system. They are economic migrants.
- Illegal immigrants should not be able to receive free services (apart from emergency medical care...any human deserves that)
- Illegal immigrants should not be able to hold a job.

Just to underscore that last point...if I as a US citizen were to go to the EU on a visiting visa and apply for a job, I would be turned down. You can't do that. Is anyone in the EU upset about this? (No, obviously.) So why is this such a problem here?

BUT of course, even though every bit of logic out there supports the above statements, it will do nothing to impact the official party line that somehow, anyone dancing up to the US border has the exact same rights and entitlements that I (as a US citizen) do. Somehow, I'm supposed to accept this without a second thought. I wonder how many people secretly feel as we do? I guess we will find out in November 2020.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by Xan » Tue Jul 16, 2019 11:21 am

ochotona wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 6:35 pm
Lots of things that were and are wrong about the country are encapsulated below. I can just imagine the battle that raged over this language. I'll bet the slave-holding wanker plantation owner politicians wanted to inflate their political power in Washington by partly counting their slaves, but oh, they aren't really fully people, just 3/5. If you counted a slave as 100% a person... then gosh, you couldn't really morally own them, could you? So they gerrymandered and goal-seeked that fraction to get them the desired outcome. Wow, who needed Excel in the 19th century?
Actually it was the South arguing that slaves should count as full people, and the North arguing that slaves should count as zero people. The two sides compromised on 3/5. It wasn't anything to do with morality on either side, really, but based on the logic you gave above, it seems that you disagree with the North.

Back on topic, this question isn't even excluding anyone from the count, it just asks a simple question. A question which has non-controversially been asked before. And the Supremes struck it down based not on any law or constitution, but based on mind-reading what people were thinking when they wrote the question. Ridiculous.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by Maddy » Tue Jul 16, 2019 1:47 pm

Even if you could argue, with a straight face, that illegal aliens are entitled to representation in Congress, the principled way of going about the census--as with any issue--is to lay bare the unadulterated facts, which are what they are, and to argue from there what the Constitution says about them. But as usual, the Unprincipled Left avoids an honest debate in favor of obfuscating the facts.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by jacksonM » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:23 am

You just knew this was coming.

Reparations for illegal immigrants interred in the border concentration camps....

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/20 ... ue-govern/

Soon to include those who have had to live in fear of ICE raids?
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:06 am

It would be so easy, you'd think, in a discussion between the parties:

R: They are illegally here right?
D: Technically yes.
R: The laws say they need to be deported right?
D: Technically yes.

So? What happens? Why is there no agreement on laws that are on the books? Again, I am trying to understand this whole thing. It seems so black and white.

If you are an employer knowingly hiring illegals, you should be fined and put in jail.

If you are illegally here, you should always be looking over your shoulder and should not be able to successfully find a job or use government resources, over and above any basic stuff to keep you alive while you are being sent back.

There's no way I can see, for example, going to Italy and just staying there, getting a job somehow, and doing it all illegally.

I do not know the nuances of asylum seeking and the deportation process and such, so maybe I am incorrect in the above stuff.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by Kriegsspiel » Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:54 am

I am trying to understand this whole thing. It seems so black and white.
There's so much going on that is just flabbergasting.
If you are an employer knowingly hiring illegals, you should be fined and put in jail.
The border should be secure enough that this shouldn't be a significant issue; a secure border would render a lot of problems irrelevant. I think we're on the same page though. If people want to work here they need to be citizens or on a work permit or something, America isn't a free for all. I believe Caesar Chavez would be down with that, too.
If you are illegally here, you should always be looking over your shoulder and should not be able to successfully find a job or use government resources, over and above any basic stuff to keep you alive while you are being sent back.
No doubt about it.
There's no way I can see, for example, going to Italy and just staying there, getting a job somehow, and doing it all illegally.
I assume you mean "I" personally, not in a rhetorical sense. Illegals have been flooding Italy for a long time now. They also have a problem with gypsies.
I do not know the nuances of asylum seeking and the deportation process and such, so maybe I am incorrect in the above stuff.
I think we had a discussion on this a few years ago. My position is that if we agreed to some international compact that required America to accept anyone who wants to be an asylum seeker... then we should get out of that agreement because it's fucking retarded. My stance is that no country should keep their citizens in if they want to leave, but no country has to let foreigners in if they don't want to.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by jacksonM » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:12 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 10:54 am
I am trying to understand this whole thing. It seems so black and white.
There's so much going on that is just flabbergasting.
You got that right. Antifa attacks an ICE building, takes down the American flag, spray paints it, hoists it back upside down, and raises a Mexican flag beside it.

WTF?

I don't know about anybody else but I'm having a terrible feeling that things are building up to something even more cataclysmic than the 60's. Back then it was race and the Vietnam war. Now it's race and illegal immigration (I guess race is a constant). The left doesn't seem too much concerned about war nowadays as long as it isn't against communist countries.

I'm hoping things don't get as violent but when you have people of the mindset that ICE=GESTAPO and Border Detention Centers=Nazi Concentration Camps it really doesn't look promising.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:11 pm

Maybe things will be different this time, but all I see happening like most everything else, something spreads wildly in the news. Becomes the issue of our time, for a while. And then slowly fades away:

Occupy Wall Street
Black Lives Matter
Me Too
March For Our Lives
Tea Party
Russian Interference (seems all stuff related to this has been dropped like a hot potato?)

The only one that seems to have ongoing staying power is Climate Change, I suppose because weather is every day.

I'm not saying the ones above aren't being continued, or aren't worth continuing. I am more saying that saturation levels are easily reached nowadays. I don't even watch the news even a little bit anymore. Local news is the latest Chicago shooting. National news is Trump and extreme weather. It gets old and depressing.
Simonjester wrote: 97% of scientists now agree that all weather is bad weather.. hot is too hot, cold is too cold, wet is too wet, dry is too dry, windy is hurricane force wind... and if it dares to switch from one to another "the end is nigh"....
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by jacksonM » Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:46 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 4:11 pm
Russian Interference (seems all stuff related to this has been dropped like a hot potato?)
I think it's being dropped like a hot potato because when Mueller indicted all of those Russians he thought that would be the end of it because they were all in Russia and nothing would become of it. According to something I just read those Russians surprised him by having their lawyers show up in court and ask for "Discovery", i.e., the evidence. And according to what I read when Mueller failed to produce the evidence a judge ordered him to stop making the claims he was making.

Should be interesting if Mueller ends up testifying before congress.

I never believed the "Russia interfered with our Democracy" thing for one minute, at least not any more and probably less than we try to interfere in who's running the government in other countries. There is a long and well documented history of that.
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Re: ICE Raids

Post by dualstow » Thu Jul 18, 2019 7:24 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:27 am
If you are here illegally, why are Americans out protesting the raids?
...
If an illegal can't get a job here, is there any reason to stay?
Asylum perhaps? That’s not my view or wish, but the best reason I can think of.
Say I’m Honduran and I’m fleeing the machete gangs. No real time to wait 727 days for proper processing and permission. I’d be trying to get here by any means necessary.

Reading about how all sorts of immigrants were treated throughout history, I do feel some sympathy. Reading about boatloads of people turned away after WWII when they were fleeing atrocities, I really feel some connection. Stating the obvious here. I doubt you guys are any different.

The problem, of course, is we’re overwhelmed. We can’t fit half the population of S.America into the U.S.
As was mentioned in the Andrew Sullivan article I linked earlier, a majority of Mexicans is in favor of deportations, thus Mexicans are white supremacists. ;-)

I don’t blame people for trying to get here, and I don’t see how we can do anything other than turn huge numbers away.
The protests to ICE raids are a knee jerk reaction and a profound lack of critical thinking. I think Kriegs is right- a lot of it is TDS.
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