Service economy inspires crappy design

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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Tortoise wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:28 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:16 pm I'm guessing that the lack of ease in home maintenance is a trade off the car companies make in order to achieve optimized aerodynamics and weight. That would help explain why back when people worked on their own cars, they were landboats.
And some of those landboats looked really cool!
No doubt.
Aerodynamics are an important part of fuel efficiency, but if you drastically reduce maintenance costs with a simplified, standardized, modular design it might be worth losing some aerodynamics.
Worth it to the car companies? How would they profit from easier maintenance? The service center mechanics are employed by the dealerships, right? So the car manufacturers wouldn't see any labor savings that way.
doodle wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:07 pm Doesn't even have to be a home maintenance scenario....when mechanic has to drop engine to change timing belt a 50 dollar repair becomes 1000. Worst of all, cars bascially have a monopoly on transportation options for americans.
That's true.
We need affordable simple cars as badly as we do affordable housing in this country. The combination of horrible trends in these two sectors of our economy are causing people to bascially bankrupt themselves.

It frustrates me mostly because other than finding an old car and stripping it down and rebuilding it, I'm forced to choose from a lineup of cars that are all full of crap that I don't want and cost twice as much as I want to pay for something that takes me from A to B.
Well, no arguments that those are the two things that cost people the most money. It's compounded when people spend too much on either when they don't have to. Seeing the average buyer spends $34,000 blows my mind. You know Nissan makes a sub-$10,000 vehicle? They don't sell it in America. At one time I was excited for Elio Motors, who were going to sell what amounted to a 3-wheel enclosed motorcycle for like $8,000 but they're having problems bringing it to market.

That said, it's pretty easy to find a good vehicle for under $10,000 used. Like you mentioned earlier, it's the demand that isn't there. Not many people seem to want a cheap 4 cylinder econobox in America these days.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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That said, it's pretty easy to find a good vehicle for under $10,000 used. Like you mentioned earlier, it's the demand that isn't there. Not many people seem to want a cheap 4 cylinder econobox in America these days.-
Cause there is no honesty in marketing...and sadly none of us are immune from it's effects....how do we know what we really like? How is it that a kitchen that in 1980 would be on the cover of better homes and gardens as a model of elegant design would be seen as hideously outdated today? Does good design ever go out of fashion? If there is a flaw in capitalism it's that it isn't a system comprised of rational actors.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Kriegsspiel wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:16 pm
Aerodynamics are an important part of fuel efficiency, but if you drastically reduce maintenance costs with a simplified, standardized, modular design it might be worth losing some aerodynamics.
Worth it to the car companies? How would they profit from easier maintenance? The service center mechanics are employed by the dealerships, right? So the car manufacturers wouldn't see any labor savings that way.
That's an interesting question. I wonder how much of the total profit on an average car comes from dealership maintenance over its lifetime. A lot of people go to independent repair shops, so for them it's zero.

I would imagine that for DIY cars, manufacturers could make money on volume and also by selling all the parts. They could even spice things up by selling some fun modification parts and accessories to make the car more unique, or faster, or more fuel-efficient, etc.

But that would be the budget tier. The manufacturer could still offer premium tier cars with much higher profit margins (from price, financing, and dealership maintenance). Lots of companies sell both budget tier and premium tier products rather than exclusively one or the other.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Tortoise wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2019 3:24 am
Kriegsspiel wrote: Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:16 pm
Aerodynamics are an important part of fuel efficiency, but if you drastically reduce maintenance costs with a simplified, standardized, modular design it might be worth losing some aerodynamics.
Worth it to the car companies? How would they profit from easier maintenance? The service center mechanics are employed by the dealerships, right? So the car manufacturers wouldn't see any labor savings that way.
That's an interesting question. I wonder how much of the total profit on an average car comes from dealership maintenance over its lifetime. A lot of people go to independent repair shops, so for them it's zero.

I would imagine that for DIY cars, manufacturers could make money on volume and also by selling all the parts. They could even spice things up by selling some fun modification parts and accessories to make the car more unique, or faster, or more fuel-efficient, etc.

But that would be the budget tier. The manufacturer could still offer premium tier cars with much higher profit margins (from price, financing, and dealership maintenance). Lots of companies sell both budget tier and premium tier products rather than exclusively one or the other.
Being what the dealerships charge for maintenance, I cant imagine anyone would go there for repairs out of warranty period...in which case complicated maintenance undertaken at zero cost to customer hurts car manufacturers bottom line.

Trucks are absolutely the worst example of modern design gone haywire. I long for an engine bay that looks like this.
Image
Simonjester wrote: i would love to see modern cars built this way, i vaguely remember a concept car (pickup truck?) that was designed along these lines, detailed down to being serviceable with a mostly single size alan wrench and one or two size socket wrenches..

the modern pickup truck may be the absolute worst for this kind of crappy design, does a utilitarian vehicle really need a mess of non serviceable computers and plastic bumpers that are now more $ than an entire pickup truck used to cost.. one that would last three generations of farmers??
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Radio and speaker systems is another thing that could be eliminated from cars. A simple usb power port and consumers can bring their own portable speaker into car with them. Radios and CD players are already replaced by phone so no need to install that either...same with any sort of onboard televisions. I recently took a plane ride on Delta and they had placed onboard televisions on every headrest at significant cost Im sure. Then...on another flight a few weeks later...I believe American airlines...they simply had a little holder on back of headrest where you could hook your ipad or phone onto it and use your private device to watch movies. Probably cost 1/100th of the price and as technology improves or things break Delta will have to remove those televisions and upgrade or replace whereas American doesnt have to worry about any of that.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Although car dealers like obsolescence, it seems like there would be a market for this “econobox” with companies that offer fleets of car share autos.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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dualstow wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:37 am Although car dealers like obsolescence, it seems like there would be a market for this “econobox” with companies that offer fleets of car share autos.
Econobox would be a good brand name. Lol I've been trying to find statistics regarding number of car crashes per mile driven to see if any of this technology really improves crash avoidance.... I know fatalities per mile driven have dropped and surely airbags and improved seatbelt design have made a big difference, but I also wonder how much improvements in medical care and treatment account for this drop. With the exception of a few additions I'm not sure our cars really are all that much safer than they were 60 years ago.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Speaking of 60 year old cars, how about a 1959 Chevy Bel Air? For the 50th anniversary of the IIHS, they crash-tested a new 2009 Chevy Malibu against a 1959 Chevy Bel Air. Sad that the Bel Air had to die (perhaps it had major mechanical problems or something...) but the resulting video is very informative as to which car you'd rather be in.
https://youtu.be/C_r5UJrxcck

Even among modern cars, there are some big differences. Here's a rollover comparison between a Volvo XC-90 and a Ford Explorer. The first 45 seconds during the Volvo test are pretty boring (which says a lot), but things get REALLY exciting in the second half when they do the Ford...
https://youtu.be/B6y3HR6b98E

So yes, the way a car is constructed makes a HUGE difference in safety.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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I jumped right to the Explorer in the second video. Whoa.
I've always heard that in general terms, if you want to survive you want to be in Volvo sedan. If you want to kill someone, you want to be in any SUV.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Xan wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:12 pm Even among modern cars, there are some big differences. Here's a rollover comparison between a Volvo XC-90 and a Ford Explorer. The first 45 seconds during the Volvo test are pretty boring (which says a lot), but things get REALLY exciting in the second half when they do the Ford...
https://youtu.be/B6y3HR6b98E
The test setup in that video looks off to me. It looks like part of the reason why the Ford Explorer took a bigger beating than the Volvo was simply because its axis of rotation brought it closer to the sliding platform.

I mean, yeah, if you raise up the axis of rotation high enough, the rolling car will barely even touch the platform as it slides underneath (Volvo). And if you lower it enough, you'll pulverize the car (Ford Explorer).

Or am I mistaken about that test setup, and the distances were carefully calibrated for each automobile based on its size?
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Another kinda-related article, about laptops.

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/12 ... agazine%29
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Kriegsspiel wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:51 pm Kinda related

http://www.startribune.com/for-tech-wea ... fresh=true
In Asimov's Foundation series, a galactic empire in decline is depicted. One of the things that seems backwards to readers is that the faction with the OLDER fleet is considered to have the advantage.

Maybe it doesn't seem so backwards anymore...
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Kriegsspiel wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:08 pm Another kinda-related article, about laptops.

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/12 ... agazine%29
I guess it takes some people a while to understand the concept of value?

I quickly learned the value concept of computers when I was at a computer show and saw that two or three year old desktops sold at a faction of the cost of brand news ones with all the latest technology. The older could always do what I needed to do on them.

Vinny
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Kriegsspiel wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:51 pm Kinda related

http://www.startribune.com/for-tech-wea ... fresh=true
That was a very interesting read. I wish i liked Linux better. I do put it on relatives’ laptops for fun when I’m visiting, but I still have to have Mac on my main devices.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Simonjester wrote:
Xan wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:55 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:51 pm Kinda related

http://www.startribune.com/for-tech-wea ... fresh=true
In Asimov's Foundation series, a galactic empire in decline is depicted. One of the things that seems backwards to readers is that the faction with the OLDER fleet is considered to have the advantage.

Maybe it doesn't seem so backwards anymore...
great until tier 4 government/epa regs make them illegal and they come along and punch a hole in the engine block so they cant be used.. :'(
Ultimately whether a state has vehicle inspections or not might determine where I land. After working on this thing for over a year to get it running great, Im not planning on replacing it anytime soon. Although, I have to say the EV conversion idea is really cool...still too pricy at this point but maybe one-day there will be a plug and play kit available.
Simonjester wrote:
you referring to your van? or are you building a tractor? i am currently stalled out on rebuilding a jeep for the same reason, ca smog is impossible/not allowed on modified vehicles... and the farmers/loggers/construction workers here are being put out of business by the rules...
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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vnatale wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:10 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:08 pm Another kinda-related article, about laptops.

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/12 ... agazine%29
I guess it takes some people a while to understand the concept of value?

I quickly learned the value concept of computers when I was at a computer show and saw that two or three year old desktops sold at a faction of the cost of brand news ones with all the latest technology. The older could always do what I needed to do on them.

Vinny
At some point did new software compatibility, lack of support, and other issues force you to upgrade? That's what I have always eventually encountered.
Right now my Apple TV which has been great, needs to be upgraded if I want HBO Max.
HBO Max replaced HBO Go which my Apple TV supported.
I get HBO through my cable subscription, but now cannot stream it through my Apple TV for on demand viewing unless I upgrade to the newer Apple TV that will let me download apps.
There is a workaround, which is to load the app on my phone and Airplay to the TV, but it's cumbersome.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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glennds wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:31 am
vnatale wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 10:10 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:08 pm Another kinda-related article, about laptops.

https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2020/12 ... agazine%29
I guess it takes some people a while to understand the concept of value?

I quickly learned the value concept of computers when I was at a computer show and saw that two or three year old desktops sold at a faction of the cost of brand news ones with all the latest technology. The older could always do what I needed to do on them.

Vinny
At some point did new software compatibility, lack of support, and other issues force you to upgrade? That's what I have always eventually encountered.
Right now my Apple TV which has been great, needs to be upgraded if I want HBO Max.
HBO Max replaced HBO Go which my Apple TV supported.
I get HBO through my cable subscription, but now cannot stream it through my Apple TV for on demand viewing unless I upgrade to the newer Apple TV that will let me download apps.
There is a workaround, which is to load the app on my phone and Airplay to the TV, but it's cumbersome.
No. As I stated elsewhere that is the beauty of the Windows operating systems over the Apple operating systems.

Once a new Windows operating system comes out all the applications for prior operating systems do not disappear, now becoming unobtainable.

Which is why I complain so loudly about Apple's GREEDY approach.

An app runs solely on an iPad 1. Does not access the internet.

Why do all the apps that run on that iPad 1 with no problems now get pulled from everywhere when Apple upgrades its operating system?

Those apps are STILL going to run with no problems on any iPad 1.

Vinny
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Simonjester wrote:
doodle wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:05 am
Simonjester wrote:
Xan wrote: Mon Dec 21, 2020 8:55 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 6:51 pm Kinda related

http://www.startribune.com/for-tech-wea ... fresh=true
In Asimov's Foundation series, a galactic empire in decline is depicted. One of the things that seems backwards to readers is that the faction with the OLDER fleet is considered to have the advantage.

Maybe it doesn't seem so backwards anymore...
great until tier 4 government/epa regs make them illegal and they come along and punch a hole in the engine block so they cant be used.. :'(
Ultimately whether a state has vehicle inspections or not might determine where I land. After working on this thing for over a year to get it running great, Im not planning on replacing it anytime soon. Although, I have to say the EV conversion idea is really cool...still too pricy at this point but maybe one-day there will be a plug and play kit available.
you referring to your van? or are you building a tractor? i am currently stalled out on rebuilding a jeep for the same reason, ca smog is impossible/not allowed on modified vehicles... and the farmers/loggers/construction workers here are being put out of business by the rules...
Yeah my battle wagon. Also gonna need to find a piece of land that will give me the freedom to do this.... I can pick up a broke down bus or box truck for a few thousand bucks. Spray foam it and clad interior and exterior. Got me a foundation, roof, and walls for a few thousand bucks. What with construction material prices you can't touch that.
Skoolie-Bus-Conversion-Cocobean-via-smallspaces.about.com-56a889235f9b58b7d0f322cd.jpg
Skoolie-Bus-Conversion-Cocobean-via-smallspaces.about.com-56a889235f9b58b7d0f322cd.jpg (40.57 KiB) Viewed 1818 times
I wish more places would relax building regs. When the average price of a home is above 300k they can kiss my ass if they think I'm gonna pay that for a place to store my underwear and sleep. If I gotta move out to slab city, so be it but I'm not gonna spend a fortune paying off some crapshack.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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you referring to your van? or are you building a tractor? i am currently stalled out on rebuilding a jeep for the same reason, ca smog is impossible/not allowed on modified vehicles... and the farmers/loggers/construction workers here are being put out of business by the rules...
If you do anything in California it's better to just resign yourself to EV. There are some pretty awesome retrofit stuff you can do with that. Ive seen it with VW campers. Of course, it's a bit pricy still.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Simonjester wrote:
doodle wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 11:28 am
you referring to your van? or are you building a tractor? i am currently stalled out on rebuilding a jeep for the same reason, ca smog is impossible/not allowed on modified vehicles... and the farmers/loggers/construction workers here are being put out of business by the rules...
If you do anything in California it's better to just resign yourself to EV. There are some pretty awesome retrofit stuff you can do with that. Ive seen it with VW campers. Of course, it's a bit pricy still.
an EV jeep wrangler would be cool.. no such thing as a kit for it though far as i know, and i don't know that a home build is remotely feasible. ultimately i will get out of the loony state and having a swapped engine wont matter, Cummins is making a small epa "compliant in all states diesel" for swap out projects but it is not as cost effective as dropping a rebuilt 4bt in one..
What engine is that?


4bt is cool...better get some loud speakers if you want to listen to anything other than cacophonous noise driving down the highway in a rag top jeep with a 4bt lol.

The ev motor seems pretty straightforward...basically just bolts on where the flywheel would have been. Everything behind that, tranny, driveshaft, differential stays the same. Seems like it would be easier to just connect to driveshaft with a u-joint...and drop the tranny out as well....I don't know why they usually leave tranny in. The batteries are the killer though. Maybe in a few more years.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Simonjester wrote: hard top jeep but noise is an issue for sure.. rattly, loud, heavy and smelly... the upside is gas mileage, torque, hp and torque...

i have some advantages/connections so i can rebuild one, and to at least some degree have it balanced and set up for performance which will kill some of the rattle and noise..

the crate option is this https://www.cummins.com/news/2017/06/07 ... lternative

batteries and range are a big hurdle for EV !
i am leaning strongly toward a overland type build, i am not big on the 4x4 rock crawler mud-bogger style builds (cool but i like getting into remote places and prefer reliability)
Didn't even think of weight. That is a monstrous piece of iron..I'm guessing over 600 pounds...maybe 7? Amazing engine though. I wish I had one in my battle wagon..tuned right it would probably nearly double my gas mileage.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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doodle wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:55 pm
Simonjester wrote: hard top jeep but noise is an issue for sure.. rattly, loud, heavy and smelly... the upside is gas mileage, torque, hp and torque...

i have some advantages/connections so i can rebuild one, and to at least some degree have it balanced and set up for performance which will kill some of the rattle and noise..

the crate option is this https://www.cummins.com/news/2017/06/07 ... lternative

batteries and range are a big hurdle for EV !
i am leaning strongly toward a overland type build, i am not big on the 4x4 rock crawler mud-bogger style builds (cool but i like getting into remote places and prefer reliability)
Didn't even think of weight. That is a monstrous piece of iron..I'm guessing over 600 pounds...maybe 7? Amazing engine though. I wish I had one in my battle wagon..tuned right it would probably nearly double my gas mileage.
You could also Ls swap that thing. A 4.8 would be plenty peppy I'd think in a little jeep, pretty cheap used, and probably yield decent gas mileage. I think somewhere around 300 lb/ft of torque in powerband but that should be more than plenty for overlanding.
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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Simonjester wrote:
doodle wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:55 pm
Simonjester wrote: hard top jeep but noise is an issue for sure.. rattly, loud, heavy and smelly... the upside is gas mileage, torque, hp and torque...

i have some advantages/connections so i can rebuild one, and to at least some degree have it balanced and set up for performance which will kill some of the rattle and noise..

the crate option is this https://www.cummins.com/news/2017/06/07 ... lternative

batteries and range are a big hurdle for EV !
i am leaning strongly toward a overland type build, i am not big on the 4x4 rock crawler mud-bogger style builds (cool but i like getting into remote places and prefer reliability)
Didn't even think of weight. That is a monstrous piece of iron..I'm guessing over 600 pounds...maybe 7? Amazing engine though. I wish I had one in my battle wagon..tuned right it would probably nearly double my gas mileage.
503 lb For the crate engine..
That's pretty reasonable. Just looked up 4bt that thing is pushing 800 pounds! Lol

Probably more than half your dry weight will be engine!
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Re: Service economy inspires crappy design

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doodle wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 10:09 pm
Simonjester wrote:
doodle wrote: Wed Dec 23, 2020 9:55 pm
Simonjester wrote: hard top jeep but noise is an issue for sure.. rattly, loud, heavy and smelly... the upside is gas mileage, torque, hp and torque...

i have some advantages/connections so i can rebuild one, and to at least some degree have it balanced and set up for performance which will kill some of the rattle and noise..

the crate option is this https://www.cummins.com/news/2017/06/07 ... lternative

batteries and range are a big hurdle for EV !
i am leaning strongly toward a overland type build, i am not big on the 4x4 rock crawler mud-bogger style builds (cool but i like getting into remote places and prefer reliability)
Didn't even think of weight. That is a monstrous piece of iron..I'm guessing over 600 pounds...maybe 7? Amazing engine though. I wish I had one in my battle wagon..tuned right it would probably nearly double my gas mileage.
503 lb For the crate engine..
That's pretty reasonable. Just looked up 4bt that thing is pushing 800 pounds! Lol

Probably more than half your dry weight will be engine!
Hmm just looked up weight. They heavier than I thought. I would have expected something like a miata weight.
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