Coronavirus General Discussion

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jalanlong
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:34 pm

This Christmas we have to tell my wife’s family in LA that we will not be coming to visit. Effective in late Nov, the vaccination is required to enter any restaurant, shopping center, grocery store or movie theater in the city of LA. Since we are refusing to be bullied into such a decision, we will be staying home. I know Biden has lost patience with us though and that does weight heavily on my conscience.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:58 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:34 pm
I know Biden has lost patience with us though and that does weight heavily on my conscience.
Let's him.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Hal » Sun Nov 07, 2021 1:57 am

jalanlong wrote:
Sat Nov 06, 2021 8:34 pm
Effective in late Nov, the vaccination is required to enter any restaurant, shopping center, grocery store or movie theater in the city of LA.
Jalanlong leaving LA after Christmas Dinner ;)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ccVu992CYE
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by boglerdude » Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:38 am

Pfauci getting nervous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1OIux90F10

Not sure I agree gain-of-function should be forbidden...but paying China to do it?

Fauci: No mandates
30sec till 2:05
https://youtu.be/Z1S6KGzUX10?t=29

In his defense, he didnt expect how many on social media want the pandemic. They created the absurdities of asymptomatic illness, double-masks, jabbing kids. He had to go along.

TLDW just another "we count deaths with covid, not deaths caused by covid" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEnQkOXftJ0
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Cortopassi » Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:05 am

Notre Dame yesterday. What an amazing early November day!

I understand some getting all worked up and moaning about masking, but look at this picture. Is the man or the government holding me down here? Tailgating was nuts as well.

And I understand many of the rules don't make any sense! But if you are only minimally inconvenienced, why spend precious minutes of your life complaining about it?

Image
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by barrett » Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:36 am

Desert wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:09 am
Cortopassi wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:05 am
Notre Dame yesterday. What an amazing early November day!

I understand some getting all worked up and moaning about masking, but look at this picture. Is the man or the government holding me down here? Tailgating was nuts as well.

And I understand many of the rules don't make any sense! But if you are only minimally inconvenienced, why spend precious minutes of your life complaining about it?
+100. Get out and enjoy life, preferably in the outdoors. I've spent more time outdoors since the beginning of the pandemic than ever before, and it's been an eye-opening experience for me.
Not to mention that being outside is even more luxurious when Notre Dame is kicking Navy's ass 34-6!!
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Nov 07, 2021 12:34 pm

Desert wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 9:04 am
Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Nov 04, 2021 2:57 pm

My current thinking on mask wearing:
1. Masks are not perfect but do help; note that medical staff, especially in the OR, have been wearing them for a long time for some reason. My understanding of physics (airflow, particle size, etc.) indicates clean surgical grade masks, e.g. N-95s and maybe just regular surgical grade, have to do some good re. reducing pathogen spreading whether SARS-CoV 2 or influenza or bacteria.
2. It is important to understand why one does not want to wear a mask, is it political or medical based. If it because you just don't like being told what you have to do, it's probably politically based. Try to see a bigger picture.
3. Does love of self take precedence over love of neighbor? It seems that for most people wearing a mask is an inconvenience, or uncomfortable for long periods at worst. Is it really that hard to make another person "feel" more comfortable even if there is a minimal health benefit, e.g. perhaps that other person is immunocomprimised or have other medical issues that make them more vulnerable. Is it really that hard to help small businesses stay open (they do have to enforce government rules if they don't want to get shut down)?
4. Personally, I think mask mandates were not the optimal way to go; we should have built a case on the benefits so people would want to do what is best from a medical point of view but that is probably a 20-20 hindsight perspective. Not a lot was known in the beginning of 2020 about the new disease or how to mitigate it.
5. Most of the people I know, either first or second hand, who have had Covid-19 (the illness, not just a positive test) say this is definitely not something you want to get. My son-in-law's brother got it; he switched from being an avid antivaxer to being a strong "get vaccinated" and "do all you can to protect yourself" proponent after spending several days in the hospital - at least he did not have experience a ventilator.
This is one of the better posts in this thread, thanks Mountaineer.
Thank you Desert.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by murphy_p_t » Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:23 pm

1. Are you an advocate of mandating a minimum standard of mask? Such as surgical grade, with mandatory training on how to properly wear the mask. I can hardly recall anyone wearing this sort of mask you suggest is necessary for effectiveness.
2. Yes... The bigger picture is that these mandates have the thinnest of scientific rationale, at best. Rather, it is painfully obvious that the motive is greater control by politicians with authoritarian tendencies and perpetuating a climate of fear.
3. You seem to have a curious notion that love of neighbor can be mandated by the State. This is a most deceptive and manipulative line of reasoning. For if something done because it is mandated, it necessarily excludes that the practice is based in love. Love is freely chosen, it cannot be compelled.
I have heard politicians such as blaze cupich of Chicago make similar arguments as regards to receiving the experimental injection. And radio advertisements trying to morally extort people in the same fashion.

Regarding the argument that you may make other people feel safer may be the weakest argument of all. Sadly, you are perpetuating several false ideas, including:

-that every person in public, with no sign of illness, is a potential danger to every other person
-that asymptomatic spread is a major threat to the public
-that masks are going to provide some meaningful protection, I.e false sense of security for the immunocompromised
-that people should be compelled to do something if it makes someone else feel comfortable, even if this is nothing more than theater

Should I be compelled to risk my health by receiving an experimental injection if it may make someone else feel more comfortable? Are there any limits to what I should be compelled to do on the basis it makes someone else feel more comfortable? Should speed limits be reduced to 25 mph to make the Amish and Mennonites feel more comfortable on the roads?

Unfortunately, it sounds like you may be an advocate of mandatory injections, even for those who have determined that the risks outweigh the benefits. Based on the acknowledged deaths and serious injury from the injections, many have concluded that the injection is literally playing fauci roulette. Should people be mandated to engage in a behavior which is potentially suicidal? Do you think love requires that?

Or mandated for those who have natural immunity. "If it makes one person feel safer..."

In reality, mask mandates and lockdowns only perpetuate a climate of fear, feed the totalitarian impulse of politicians, and condition the public to accept future abuses.

4. You seem to be giving the benefit of the doubt that the authorities have good intentions in their draconian measures, despite the overwhelming evidence suggesting otherwise.
5. I haven't heard of one person who suggested they want to get a severe case of Wuhan. The question is what are the prudent and evidence-based behaviors, which each individual can determine for themselves, in alignment with their evaluation of their personal risk. For some, that may mean taking vitamin D supplement. For others, that may mean self quarantine.

Your anecdote not withstanding.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:36 am

murphy_p_t wrote:
Sun Nov 07, 2021 3:23 pm
1. Are you an advocate of mandating a minimum standard of mask? Such as surgical grade, with mandatory training on how to properly wear the mask. I can hardly recall anyone wearing this sort of mask you suggest is necessary for effectiveness.
2. Yes... The bigger picture is that these mandates have the thinnest of scientific rationale, at best. Rather, it is painfully obvious that the motive is greater control by politicians with authoritarian tendencies and perpetuating a climate of fear.
3. You seem to have a curious notion that love of neighbor can be mandated by the State. This is a most deceptive and manipulative line of reasoning. For if something done because it is mandated, it necessarily excludes that the practice is based in love. Love is freely chosen, it cannot be compelled.
I have heard politicians such as blaze cupich of Chicago make similar arguments as regards to receiving the experimental injection. And radio advertisements trying to morally extort people in the same fashion.

Regarding the argument that you may make other people feel safer may be the weakest argument of all. Sadly, you are perpetuating several false ideas, including:

-that every person in public, with no sign of illness, is a potential danger to every other person
-that asymptomatic spread is a major threat to the public
-that masks are going to provide some meaningful protection, I.e false sense of security for the immunocompromised
-that people should be compelled to do something if it makes someone else feel comfortable, even if this is nothing more than theater

Should I be compelled to risk my health by receiving an experimental injection if it may make someone else feel more comfortable? Are there any limits to what I should be compelled to do on the basis it makes someone else feel more comfortable? Should speed limits be reduced to 25 mph to make the Amish and Mennonites feel more comfortable on the roads?

Unfortunately, it sounds like you may be an advocate of mandatory injections, even for those who have determined that the risks outweigh the benefits. Based on the acknowledged deaths and serious injury from the injections, many have concluded that the injection is literally playing fauci roulette. Should people be mandated to engage in a behavior which is potentially suicidal? Do you think love requires that?

Or mandated for those who have natural immunity. "If it makes one person feel safer..."

In reality, mask mandates and lockdowns only perpetuate a climate of fear, feed the totalitarian impulse of politicians, and condition the public to accept future abuses.

4. You seem to be giving the benefit of the doubt that the authorities have good intentions in their draconian measures, despite the overwhelming evidence suggesting otherwise.
5. I haven't heard of one person who suggested they want to get a severe case of Wuhan. The question is what are the prudent and evidence-based behaviors, which each individual can determine for themselves, in alignment with their evaluation of their personal risk. For some, that may mean taking vitamin D supplement. For others, that may mean self quarantine.

Your anecdote not withstanding.
Murphy, you obviously have very strong feelings about this. I have only one question: Where do you get the idea that I'm for mandates related to masks or vaccines from what I wrote (full disclosure - I am for mandates related to drivers not running red lights or stop signs and not driving on sidewalks ;) ) ? Or maybe you were not addressing this to me; I couldn't tell for sure from your post as it was not addressed to anyone.

Regardless, peace brother, take a deep breath, don't stress out over things you can't control, and enjoy life as others said.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by pp4me » Mon Nov 08, 2021 2:51 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 4:36 pm
pp4me wrote:
Fri Nov 05, 2021 3:00 pm

The question is, however, what utility do they have in the real world? If I go to the store and there are 50 people inside wearing masks and not one of those 50 people has COVID then the masks aren't protecting anybody from anything are they? So with 50 people in a store what are the odds that one of them even has COVID, let alone that I would have enough contact with them to catch the disease?
How ridiculous does that make the rules to wear a mask into a restaurant and then take it off when you get to your table? What on earth are the percentage chances that in the 10-30 feet I have to walk to my table from the front door that I will pass someone closely and that someone will have the virus and cough/sneeze droplets on me? If that is the level of risk I am unwilling to take then I should obviously just stay home right? But then at home I need not to climb on a ladder, swim in the pool or eat bone-in chicken. Need to stay safe.
Pretty ridiculous. I remember when the governor of California urged everyone eating in restaurants to keep the mask on while eating, only removing it while taking bites of food. I don't live in CA but I have never seen anyone do this here in FL or on any of my travels. I doubt that Newsom has either.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by murphy_p_t » Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:44 pm

Mountaineer wrote: "Where do you get the idea that I'm for mandates related to masks or vaccines from what I wrote..."


You also wrote: "2. It is important to understand why one does not want to wear a mask, is it political or medical based. If it because you just don't like being told what you have to do, it's probably politically based. Try to see a bigger picture."

My interpretation of instructing people who object to political (State mandate) based mask-wearing to try to see the big picture... Is that you are defending and justifying a political action (by the State.)

Based on your question, I presume that my interpretation is incorrect of your thinking.

Also...."4. Personally, I think mask mandates were not the optimal way to go; we should have built a case on the benefits so people would want to do what is best from a medical point of view but that is probably a 20-20 hindsight perspective. Not a lot was known in the beginning of 2020 about the new disease or how to mitigate it."

Since 20/20 hindsight was unavailable initially... I mistakenly interpreted the last sentence above to mean that it was okay by you for the State to impose mandates.

Best.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:03 am

murphy_p_t wrote:
Mon Nov 08, 2021 8:44 pm
Mountaineer wrote: "Where do you get the idea that I'm for mandates related to masks or vaccines from what I wrote..."


You also wrote: "2. It is important to understand why one does not want to wear a mask, is it political or medical based. If it because you just don't like being told what you have to do, it's probably politically based. Try to see a bigger picture."

My interpretation of instructing people who object to political (State mandate) based mask-wearing to try to see the big picture... Is that you are defending and justifying a political action (by the State.)

Based on your question, I presume that my interpretation is incorrect of your thinking.

Also...."4. Personally, I think mask mandates were not the optimal way to go; we should have built a case on the benefits so people would want to do what is best from a medical point of view but that is probably a 20-20 hindsight perspective. Not a lot was known in the beginning of 2020 about the new disease or how to mitigate it."

Since 20/20 hindsight was unavailable initially... I mistakenly interpreted the last sentence above to mean that it was okay by you for the State to impose mandates.

Best.
Murphy, thanks for the explanation. I could and should have been clearer.

Hope you have a great day.

Blessings, …Mountaineer
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:26 am

Jimmy Dore has been keeping on top of the disinformation coming out of large news corporations. This video shows how NBC's Today show massively inflates the number of children dying from COVID. The "doctor" on the show says 146,000 kids have died from COVID, while CDC numbers show less than 900 (I just went to the site and added them up myself).
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by whatchamacallit » Tue Nov 09, 2021 6:41 pm

In depth overview of new pfizer drug vs ivermectin.
Long but detailed. Pretty sure he is saying ivermectin is more effective. Also ivermectin doesn't bring in the profits that a new drug does.

This will make you sick in your stomach when you realize what our health leaders have done by discouraging these cheap and effective drugs we already had.

Dr. John Campbell
https://youtu.be/ufy2AweXRkc
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:30 am

Does anyone here know someone with “long COVID”? See the following that was posted on another forum I occasionally read. I think the post is by a Pastor who lives in the NYC area.

“Along with those who succumbed to the virus and whom we have buried, those with the Long Virus in our congregation and community have really affected my view of what lies ahead. Too many people I have walked with for years continue to struggle with the long-term effects of COVID, including lung and heart issues as well as dramatically increased joint pain. Their lives are as far as we can tell permanently changed and made difficult.

Dave Benke”
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by dualstow » Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:18 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:30 am
Does anyone here know someone with “long COVID”?
My neighbor claims her son has it. That’s the only one I’ve heard of in person.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by I Shrugged » Wed Nov 10, 2021 4:28 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:30 am
Does anyone here know someone with “long COVID”? See the following that was posted on another forum I occasionally read. I think the post is by a Pastor who lives in the NYC area.

“Along with those who succumbed to the virus and whom we have buried, those with the Long Virus in our congregation and community have really affected my view of what lies ahead. Too many people I have walked with for years continue to struggle with the long-term effects of COVID, including lung and heart issues as well as dramatically increased joint pain. Their lives are as far as we can tell permanently changed and made difficult.

Dave Benke”
I don't know him personally, but the brother of a guy I know pretty well is having long term mental problems post-Covid. Sort of like senility but he's middle aged. He has improved "a little" recently.

I know someone who had "covid toes". She said it was rough.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mark Leavy » Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:46 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Wed Nov 10, 2021 10:30 am
Does anyone here know someone with “long COVID”?
This French study published in JAMA suggests that most of the people that have "long COVID" symptoms never really had COVID, and of the people that actually did contract COVID, most only report loss of smell as a long term after affect.
Findings
In this cross-sectional analysis of 26 823 adults from the population-based French CONSTANCES cohort during the COVID-19 pandemic, self-reported COVID-19 infection was associated with most persistent physical symptoms, whereas laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 infection was associated only with anosmia. Those associations were independent from self-rated health or depressive symptoms.
Conclusions and Relevance
The findings of this cross-sectional analysis of a large, population-based French cohort suggest that persistent physical symptoms after COVID-19 infection may be associated more with the belief in having been infected with SARS-CoV-2 than with having laboratory-confirmed COVID-19 infection. Further research in this area should consider underlying mechanisms that may not be specific to the SARS-CoV-2 virus. A medical evaluation of these patients may be needed to prevent symptoms due to another disease being erroneously attributed to “long COVID.”
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:28 am

Each afternoon I have to go pick up my son from school. Yesterday I was in the car pickup line and noticed the parent next to me in a Toyota. He sat there alone in his car with the windows rolled up waiting for 25 mins for school to let out. He wore a mask in his car the entire time he was waiting.

As a card carrying Libertarian, I generally do not care in the least how other people live their lives. Want to dye your hair pink and marry 3 people? Great, have at it, its your life. So I have to ask myself why I am so bugged by people like this masked parent? It goes against my live and let live philosophy. I guess it comes down to the fact that people like this are (to me) such a danger for the future of society, the one my child will be living in. Masks were recommended/mandated for a specific purpose: for times when you cannot be distanced from others who may be carrying the virus and can transmit it to you. Whether or not you agree with that reasoning, that is why they were supposed to be worn. Sitting in your car alone for 30 mins wearing a mask suggests to me that you have absolutely no idea why you are doing it and that you are only doing it because you were told to. That is something that gets under my skin because I just don't believe a society can progress long term with so many people who do not think critically about a situation and just do whatever someone tells them to do.

Am I wrong to be irked by this? If it was just one person I could write it off but I see so many of them every day!
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by dualstow » Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:28 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:28 am
Am I wrong to be irked by this? If it was just one person I could write it off but I see so many of them every day!
You can’t be wrong for being irked by something any more than you could be wrong for not liking cilantro. It’s out of your hands.

It is a bit weird to dwell on it, though. Some people just like wearing a mask. They got used to it, and they don’t want to keep taking it off, putting it on a dirty dashboard (or even touching it too much their hands), and then putting it back on when it’s required.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kbg » Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:48 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 1:28 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:28 am
Am I wrong to be irked by this? If it was just one person I could write it off but I see so many of them every day!
You can’t be wrong for being irked by something any more than you could be wrong for not liking cilantro. It’s out of your hands.

It is a bit weird to dwell on it, though. Some people just like wearing a mask. They got used to it, and they don’t want to keep taking it off, putting it on a dirty dashboard (or even touching it too much their hands), and then putting it back on when it’s required.
Related, why IS this thread still going? I can't think of a single reason other than a continuous unending need to vent. Amongst my peers, family and friends regardless of stance on the issue, it's all background noise at this point.

Literally the ONLY people I know who talk about COVID frequently anymore are the highly politically partisan of either ilk.

jl...yeah, my .02 is if you are actually a libertarian then mask or pink hair who cares?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mark Leavy » Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:45 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:28 am
Am I wrong to be irked by this? If it was just one person I could write it off but I see so many of them every day!
I have a few different emotions when I see the solitary bemasked:
  • Let people do what they want.
  • True believers of any type are the least likely to let me live my life the way I want - so steer clear, lest they propose burning me at the stake.
  • It's a good indicator to never hire that person for anything more intellectually demanding than turning screws on an assembly line.
  • There must be a way that I can make some money from the intellectually challenged. I admit, I'm not above it.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Hal » Thu Nov 11, 2021 3:20 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 2:45 pm
jalanlong wrote:
Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:28 am
Am I wrong to be irked by this? If it was just one person I could write it off but I see so many of them every day!
I have a few different emotions when I see the solitary bemasked:
  • Let people do what they want.
  • True believers of any type are the least likely to let me live my life the way I want - so steer clear, lest they propose burning me at the stake.
  • It's a good indicator to never hire that person for anything more intellectually demanding than turning screws on an assembly line.
  • There must be a way that I can make some money from the intellectually challenged. I admit, I'm not above it.
Or at least not loose money due to them....

Government to give 30% refund on cost of eating out.
https://www.perthnow.com.au/business/co ... -c-4472418

Radio yesterday: Five fully vaccinated people tested positive after meeting at restaurant, Government fines restaurant $1000's for not checking their vaccination status and diners for not "registering" they were eating there.

Anyway, I think this highlights the need to diversify internationally if you live in a small economy. Thanks Smithy!
https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2021/1 ... 1230-aedt/ (last few minutes for summary)

https://www.macrobusiness.com.au/2021/1 ... ower-grab/
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Nov 12, 2021 6:17 am

I have two general thought paths on that.

One, is that it's more of a hind-brain thought process, not a cognitive one. It's natural to be disturbed by deranged people. "Libertarian" leanings aren't relevant in your disturbed feelings when you're standing by someone who is screaming at a telephone pole. I once worked with someone who had a full beard, large breast implants, wore women's clothes, and did a reverse Theranos where he talked with a really weird falsetto, but when he dropped something or got surprised he'd curse or yell in his natural deep voice. So every day was unsettling having to deal with someone who had so many mental issues. Recognizing that they're free to do those things doesn't relieve the unpleasantness of dealing with them; it's just not a relevant mental process here. I suspect that there's a deep-seated evolutionary bias against deranged people who lower the collective fitness of the tribe, à la the black sheep effect.

Second, is that you're probably running into where libertarian leanings run into realpolitik. Enemies of freedom and personal liberty are helped and enabled by dogmatic libertarians or people with libertarian principles. For instance, anti-mask laws are obviously not a libertarian position; people should be free to wear masks in public as long as they don't hurt anyone or steal their stuff. In the real world, people use masks to conceal their identities to commit crimes (Antifa, the Ku Klux Klan, bank robbers, common criminals, etc). I imagine a principled Libertarian would say that "the freedom to wear masks in public should be protected," despite it not being a cultural norm*, and despite the certainty that people will use it against them. "The capitalist will sell us the rope that we will use to hang them."

* It's a cultural norm for people to wear masks on Halloween, or during Mardi Gras, or a parade. Wearing masks in public outside of those cultural events violates cultural norms.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by murphy_p_t » Fri Nov 12, 2021 10:26 am

Society does not help the mentally deranged by encouraging them. It's kind of like giving keys to a sports car to somebody who's drunk.

In fact, it's actually negligent.
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