Coronavirus General Discussion

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jalanlong
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:16 am

vnatale wrote:
Wed Aug 18, 2021 10:52 pm

Dr. Deborah Birx, who stood alongside Trump at his supposed press briefings and frequently defended the administration's pandemic policies, told the network that she believes the vast majority of the nearly 500,000 deaths could have been prevented with a more aggressive response.

"I look at it this way: The first time, we have an excuse. There were about 100,000 deaths that came from that original surge," she said. "All of the rest of them, in my mind, could have been mitigated or decreased substantially."

Birx said later in the interview that the federal government "did not provide consistent messaging" on the pandemic.

"That was fault No. 1," she said.
So by aggressive response I am going to guess she means Federal lockdowns? Again, I am not convinced any Republican would have done that so if you are going to fault Trump for it you would really need to fault the entire Republican party and constituency.

For the consistent messaging, I am not sure exactly what she means by that since the CDC and WHO themselves were very inconsistent in the early days of the virus. I suppose she could mean that Trump underplayed the seriousness of the virus, leaving citizens to not be as vigilant as they could have been. That could be a fair point although I don't know how you can attribute 400,000 deaths to simply his messaging. Certainly him saying back in Feb that the virus was nothing and would pass in a few weeks was not a smart thing to say given that you could see how seriously Europe was taking it. A more consistent message of telling people to be vigilant, wear a mask, distance etc. could possibly had make some small amount of difference but again I would not call that "gross mishandling".

Which brings up another question. When Biden took office we were told that 400,000 deaths were on Trump's hands. Well now we have 624,000 deaths. Are those extra 224,000 on Biden's hands? Where does the cutoff start or end? Certainly if Trump's inaction and poor messaging was responsible for some then Biden's has to be as well correct? Shocking that I have not heard any media pundits attribute Covid deaths to Biden since he took office.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:17 pm

So much for control by political party determining policies.....

The Texas Supreme Court is entirely Republican controlled and they have just blocked Greg Abbott’s petition to continue his ban on masks in schools.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Xan » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:19 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:17 pm
So much for control by political party determining policies.....

The Texas Supreme Court is entirely Republican controlled and they have just blocked Greg Abbott’s petition to continue his ban on masks in schools.
Link?
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vnatale
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:30 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:19 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:17 pm

So much for control by political party determining policies.....

The Texas Supreme Court is entirely Republican controlled and they have just blocked Greg Abbott’s petition to continue his ban on masks in schools.


Link?


I did not read it in an article but got it from another source. But now that I did a search for articles regarding it I see that their decision of a few days ago was actually the opposite: They upheld his ban.

I assume that they could not have reversed their own ruling in such a short period of time? I am now going to the person who was my source and ask for that person's source.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:37 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:19 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:17 pm

So much for control by political party determining policies.....

The Texas Supreme Court is entirely Republican controlled and they have just blocked Greg Abbott’s petition to continue his ban on masks in schools.


Link?


Now I did find this:

https://abc13.com/texas-supreme-court-m ... /10962809/

FACE MASK
Texas Supreme Court denies Gov. Greg Abbott's request to block Travis County's mask mandate

AND

Local mask mandates allowed for now after Texas Supreme Court rejects Gov. Abbott's request to intervene
By Kay Jones and Andy Rose, CNN

Updated 10:31 PM ET, Thu August 19, 2021

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/19/us/texas ... index.html
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Xan » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:44 pm

Very interesting, thanks Vinny.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:57 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Aug 19, 2021 9:44 pm

Very interesting, thanks Vinny.


I thought you had me with you being in Texas and me trying to find backup but initially only finding the reverse.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Tortoise » Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:00 pm

image.png
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Xan » Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:07 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 12:00 pm
image.png
lol, brilliant!
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 25, 2021 1:52 pm

Yesterday while I was in my backyard I saw one of my backyard neighbors with his cute, young dog.

I started moving toward them and he told me that he had to maintain distance as he'd tested positive for Covid last week. As has his two children but not his wife. No one is exhibiting symptoms. He stated he was in day six of his ten days of keeping away from people.

This is definitely the closest to home that the virus has hit me.

I forgot to add two important details....my neighbor had been vaccinated in February and his test took three days to get the result.
Last edited by vnatale on Thu Aug 26, 2021 4:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:34 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:07 pm
Maddy wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:56 pm
Don't they get that there is no end to this?
I think it was shown there would be an end, when the masks pretty much went away briefly. We've got a surge right now, so they're back, but I think I Shrugged is right, and this will be the last surge before it settles down into a background endemic. Delta surges elsewhere have largely peaked quickly and fallen quickly, so hopefully that'll be the case here.

Combine that with the coming vaccines for under 12s, and we'll be normal very soon, where everybody has done what they're able and willing, the surge will be over, and everybody will be back to normal.
Are you sticking with this prediction 2 weeks later? Despite only averaging 1 Covid death per day, my local ISD has gone back to Covid Defcon 2. Required masks, no parents allowed in school buildings, all virtual meetings and no indoor gatherings of any sort including pep rallies or choir concerts.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by SomeDude » Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:05 pm

jalanlong wrote:
Wed Aug 25, 2021 5:34 pm
Xan wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:07 pm
Maddy wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:56 pm
Don't they get that there is no end to this?
I think it was shown there would be an end, when the masks pretty much went away briefly. We've got a surge right now, so they're back, but I think I Shrugged is right, and this will be the last surge before it settles down into a background endemic. Delta surges elsewhere have largely peaked quickly and fallen quickly, so hopefully that'll be the case here.

Combine that with the coming vaccines for under 12s, and we'll be normal very soon, where everybody has done what they're able and willing, the surge will be over, and everybody will be back to normal.
Are you sticking with this prediction 2 weeks later? Despite only averaging 1 Covid death per day, my local ISD has gone back to Covid Defcon 2. Required masks, no parents allowed in school buildings, all virtual meetings and no indoor gatherings of any sort including pep rallies or choir concerts.
Covid restrtictions will go away when the government finds a better excuse to completely control us and manage the decline of our standard of living and path to serfdom.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:09 pm

Restrictions not going away until one or more of these curves is clearly downward

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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mark Leavy » Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:18 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:09 pm
Restrictions not going away until one or more of these curves is clearly downward
The fastest way to get those curves moving downward is to remove all restrictions.

This whole mismanagement of the disease seems entirely analogous to the mismanagement of forest fires. Stop trying to put out the fires. Let the small fires burn and deal with the loss - otherwise you end up with large, unmanageable fires. New Zealand is primed for catastrophe.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:24 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:18 pm
New Zealand is primed for catastrophe.
Speaking of catastrophes, Australia went from Aussie to Nazi real quick. Poor Hal :'(
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Tortoise » Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:48 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:24 pm
Mark Leavy wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:18 pm
New Zealand is primed for catastrophe.
Speaking of catastrophes, Australia went from Aussie to Nazi real quick. Poor Hal :'(
Relevant: Australian Citizens Ask Taliban to Liberate Their Country
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:57 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:18 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:09 pm
Restrictions not going away until one or more of these curves is clearly downward
The fastest way to get those curves moving downward is to remove all restrictions.

This whole mismanagement of the disease seems entirely analogous to the mismanagement of forest fires. Stop trying to put out the fires. Let the small fires burn and deal with the loss - otherwise you end up with large, unmanageable fires. New Zealand is primed for catastrophe.
I don't disagree with you 100%, but to do like you say likely results in one really major spike, and everyone (in govt) is trying to prevent/limit that, no? I'm not saying they are being successful, and I understand the forest analogy -- the dry brush initially were old and people with multiple conditions, but it does seem now that delta is spreading very fast, and while there's not as many compromised people around, there are increasing infections happening.

Agree or not?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Tortoise » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:09 pm

A positive RT-PCR test result does not necessarily imply an active infection (meaning a live virus culture could be obtained from the person). It often implies only that some viral fragments are in the person's system, e.g., from their immune system successfully blocking an attempted infection.

This has always been, and continues to be, the major problem with using RT-PCR tests for SARS-CoV-2 virus testing -- an application for which they are neither designed nor well suited.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mark Leavy » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:12 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:57 pm
I don't disagree with you 100%, but to do like you say likely results in one really major spike, and everyone (in govt) is trying to prevent/limit that, no? I'm not saying they are being successful, and I understand the forest analogy -- the dry brush initially were old and people with multiple conditions, but it does seem now that delta is spreading very fast, and while there's not as many compromised people around, there are increasing infections happening.

Agree or not?
No disagreement with your analysis of the situation, I'm only disagreeing with your solution.
Back off and let the people that want to take risks, take risks. It will eventually burn out - one way or the other.
As part of that risk taking, no one should assume that they will have access to a hospital. That's just the way to live life - Covid or no Covid.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mark Leavy » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:19 pm

There is a great article by Glenn Greenwald discussing the lack of cost benefit analysis to this problem. Everyone talks about the dangers but there is little discussion of the cost. As rational people we continue to support the huge destruction of human life via automobiles. Yet we don't apply the same rationalizations to this disease. My basic premise is that it is because politicians are idiots. Nothing more conspiratorial than that.
The Bizarre Refusal to Apply Cost-Benefit Analysis to COVID Debates

Are those who oppose a ban on cars or a radical reduction in speed limits sociopaths, given the huge number of people they are knowingly consigning to death or maiming?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:21 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:12 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 1:57 pm
I don't disagree with you 100%, but to do like you say likely results in one really major spike, and everyone (in govt) is trying to prevent/limit that, no? I'm not saying they are being successful, and I understand the forest analogy -- the dry brush initially were old and people with multiple conditions, but it does seem now that delta is spreading very fast, and while there's not as many compromised people around, there are increasing infections happening.

Agree or not?
No disagreement with your analysis of the situation, I'm only disagreeing with your solution.
Back off and let the people that want to take risks, take risks. It will eventually burn out - one way or the other.
As part of that risk taking, no one should assume that they will have access to a hospital. That's just the way to live life - Covid or no Covid.
And I am generally ok with your point -- with one exception that at least Xan pointed out if not others -- what do you do about sub 12 year olds who cannot yet get vaccinated (assuming their parents want them to)? I'm not too sure I'd be happy if I had a younger than 12 kid, for example, going to school where, because of whatever reasons, a decent portion were not vaccinated, nor masked?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mark Leavy » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:28 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:21 pm
And I am generally ok with your point -- with one exception that at least Xan pointed out if not others -- what do you do about sub 12 year olds who cannot yet get vaccinated (assuming their parents want them to)? I'm not too sure I'd be happy if I had a younger than 12 kid, for example, going to school where, because of whatever reasons, a decent portion were not vaccinated, nor masked?
If your 12 year old kid is in any danger from Covid - you have much bigger problems. Focus on whatever is broken with your kid that would put him or her in a risk category. If they are not in a risk category, they are at much greater danger from you driving them to school. Why would you do that to your kid, you sociopath?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by stuper1 » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:52 pm

Check out the safety studies for the vaccines, even the ones that have been fully approved. The safety studies won't end until 2026 -- yes five years in the future. Which of course stands to reason -- how else could long-term side effects be studied? Anyone who is letting their children get vaccinated ought to be locked up for child abuse.

The whole paradigm of vaccination has been stood on end. In the old days, say two years ago, people only got vaccinated after it had been proven that a vaccine provided more benefit than risk for that particular person in his/her particular health situation. If the vaccination of that particular person also conferred a public health benefit to the larger community, then that was rightfully considered as an extra benefit.

Now, we are being told that everyone should get the Covid vaccine, and the main reason is for the public benefit to the larger community. We don't even have enough data to answer whether the vaccine actually provides more benefit than risk for a lot of people (i.e., people say under age 65 who don't have serious health problems).

Whatever happened to the old medical motto: first do no harm?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:56 pm

I don't disagree on the driving to school being dangerous.

And I'm not saying masks are 100% effective or that the vaccine is 100% effective. I am just trying to state that if someone works a job where they have exposure to kids who cannot be vaccinated, I would hope that their sense of altruism/community would make them reconsider their position.

As an aside, just heard a story from a friend at work. His buddy took his daughter to a birthday party. 9 years old. Got a call later that a kid had Covid. The 9 year old and Dad got it as well as at least one other co-worker, and the guy's ex-wife (who was un-vaccinated by choice). One person went to the hospital and passed away. The rest had no or mild symptoms. Care to guess which?

There seem to be some differences with this delta. I have absolutely already heard of more people who have gotten it than the entire period before.

When I say "heard" I mean personally.
Last edited by Cortopassi on Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Xan » Thu Aug 26, 2021 3:06 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Thu Aug 26, 2021 2:28 pm
If they are not in a risk category, they are at much greater danger from you driving them to school. Why would you do that to your kid, you sociopath?
Citation?
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