Coronavirus General Discussion

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sophie
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by sophie » Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:49 pm

pugchief wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 1:10 pm
dualstow wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:53 am
You both have a point but respectfully, you both missed mine.
Okay, I will answer. Of course, this is just my 2c, not necessarily anyone else's.

Masks are uncomfortable, make me hot, make breathing normally difficult (particularly during exercise which is a large part of my avg day) and are always riding up when I speak. If I'm not clean shaven, the stubble gets stuck on there and causes irritation. And I don't believe they do much because everyone keeps f*cking touching them to adjust them, which is particularly disgusting from my waiter/waitress.
Second all that! Apart from the stubble issue of course :-).

Breathing high levels of CO2 for long periods can't be healthy. I would not be at all surprised if mask-wearing is the main reason for the increased incidence of heart attacks and strokes during COVID. Here are a few of the effects, at the level of chronic hypercapnia that you get with mask-wearing:

Shortness of breath (you knew about that one) - but imagine the effect on someone with an existing respiratory condition, like COPD
Increased blood pressure
Headaches
Rapid heart rate
Confusion
Fatigue
Increased intracranial pressure
Cardiac arrhythmias
increased blood pH (due to increased blood concentrations of CO2)

Short term effects, see above. In the long term, this can lead to permanent cardiac & CNS damage. There is a reason why mask-wearing used to be something that OSHA got all worked up about, e.g. operating rooms are enriched with extra oxygen to compensate for the CO2 effects of long-term mask wearing. Thus - not only do I minimize my mask-wearing time by taking it off while outdoors (no one has complained yet), but I absolutely will not go into my workplace unless there is good reason for it, and then only for the minimum amount of time.

Also, I just really want the sun & wind on my face instead of having to sweat under a mask.

The irresponsibility of mask mandates is just breathtaking to me. In a way it's little different from the nursing home scandal, in terms of the health damage being inflicted. Not as severe, but far more widespread.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by pp4me » Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:52 pm

There is one benefit to wearing masks that I can think of, apart from keeping out COVID, of course.

You don't have to shave very well, if at all, before going to the store.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by dualstow » Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:53 pm

Much appreciated, Sophie.
No pun intended by breathtaking, I assume.
pp4me wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:52 pm
There is one benefit to wearing masks that I can think of, apart from keeping out COVID, of course.
You don't have to shave very well, if at all, before going to the store.
I grew my first beard because of this plague. Well, because of masks.
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whatchamacallit
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by whatchamacallit » Wed Mar 17, 2021 3:58 pm

Are people being criminally charged in our country for not wearing a mask?

If so, are there any cases going up through courts?

I am thankfully in a place where I only wear a mask for hair cuts.

I assume I might have been arrested in some places in this country.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by pp4me » Wed Mar 17, 2021 4:03 pm

We were international travelers before COVID and are hoping to resume but I can't even imagine doing it wearing a mask. We have taken flights lasting as long as 30 hours overall so if you have to wear it in the airport and on the plane that's how long you would be required to have your mask on.

I start getting nauseated wearing it just while I'm in the store and can't wait to take it off.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by SomeDude » Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:15 pm

dualstow wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:53 am
You both have a point but respectfully, you both missed mine.
Everyone can see that cars exist. Everyone can see or have been in accidents or LOGICALLY conclude that accidents occur. Humans are made of flesh and blood, cars of much harder substances so anyone with logical capacity can conclude that accident could be and are sometimes fatal.

Your point was that some things should be believed despite personal experience to the contrary. I agree.....but car accidents don't work as a way to make that point.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by dualstow » Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:35 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 8:15 pm
dualstow wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:53 am
You both have a point but respectfully, you both missed mine.
Everyone can see that cars exist. Everyone can see or have been in accidents or LOGICALLY conclude that accidents occur. Humans are made of flesh and blood, cars of much harder substances so anyone with logical capacity can conclude that accident could be and are sometimes fatal.

Your point was that some things should be believed despite personal experience to the contrary. I agree.....but car accidents don't work as a way to make that point.
No that’s not right. There is no personal experience to the contrary. There is simply an absence of that personal experience. That’s very different. It means far less.
And we’re not even talking about the leap it took for people to believe in germs before they were universally known. We know that viruses exist, and that they can be harmful and even fatal.

What’s really going on here is a mistrust of institutions. Fair enough. They haven’t exactly earned our trust. Secondly, it would be a lot more convenient if this were complete bullshit because we could get back to our lives. Whether or not we landed on the moon in 1969 does not affect our lives the way these draconian lockdowns do. As jalanlong pointed out, the stakes are high, so the bar of proof should be high.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by vnatale » Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:30 pm

I get my first shot tomorrow at 4:30 PM. Anyone dispute anything contained in the following?

Vinny


https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... ed/618303/

HEALTH
You’re Not Fully Vaccinated the Day of Your Last Dose
Patience, grasshopper.

KATHERINE J. WU
9:29 AM ET
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Cortopassi » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:05 pm

Seven hours after shot one of Moderna. No arm soreness, no other effects either so far.

Needle was the smallest ever. If I didn’t see it go in I wouldn’t have known.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:31 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:05 pm
Seven hours after shot one of Moderna. No arm soreness, no other effects either so far.

Needle was the smallest ever. If I didn’t see it go in I wouldn’t have known.
Good to hear. Congratulations and thank you for the update.
A sincere ‘Best wishes to you and yours’.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:03 am

Update 2, tiny spot of arm soreness, only if I press on it. Slept fine.

So shot #1 experience was much better than I imagined.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:28 am

Cortopassi wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 8:03 am
Update 2, tiny spot of arm soreness, only if I press on it. Slept fine.

So shot #1 experience was much better than I imagined.
Glad to hear you have had no serious side effects! 8)

.
Psalm 146
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Maddy
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Maddy » Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:27 am

In this interview, a leading virologist associated with GAVI, the Vaccine Alliance, and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, explains why the current vaccine roll-out is a huge mistake--both in terms of its long-term consequences to vaccinated individuals and to society at large. Briefly, he explains that the limited efficacy of the coronavirus vaccine results in selective pressures that favor the emergence of more robust, virulent variants, and that the vaccine, targeted as it is to a very specific form of the virus, suppresses the ability of vaccinated individuals to mount a normal broad-based immune response, leaving them defenseless when subsequently exposed to evolving forms of the pathogen and turning them into "asymptomatic shedders" of increasingly virulent variants.

The interview is lengthy, so the quoted piece below is highly redacted.
Every single time you have an immune response that is suboptimal in the presence of an infection, in the presence of a virus, that infected person, you are at risk for immune escape.

So that means that the virus can escape the immune response. And that is why I’m saying that these vaccines, I mean, in their own right, are, of course, excellent. But to use them in the midst of a pandemic and do mass vaccination, because then you provide within a very short period of time, the population with high antibody titers – so the virus comes under enormous pressure.
* * *
I mean, that wouldn’t matter if you can eradicate a virus, if you can prevent infection, but these vaccines don’t prevent infection. . . . So if you think that by making new vaccines, a new vaccine against the new infectious strains, we going to catch up, it’s impossible to catch up. I mean, virus is not going to wait until we have those vaccines ready.

And as I was saying, the thing is, I mean, if you do this in the midst of a pandemic, that is an enormous problem. . . .These vaccines are excellent, but they are not made for administration to millions of people in the midst, in the heat of a pandemic.
* * *
[The] [p]roblem is we induce a long lived antibody response. . . . Fact is that these long lived antibodies, which have high specificity, of course, for the virus. They out-compete our natural antibodies because they’re natural antibodies, they have a very broad spectrum, but they have low affinity. . . And so by doing this, even if your antibodies don’t work anymore, because there is resistance or, you know, that the strains are too different from the original strain, we still, these antibodies, specific antibodies will still continue to out-compete your natural antibodies. And that is a huge problem because I was saying just a few minutes ago, these natural antibodies, they provide you with broad protection.

This protection is, yes, it is variant nonspecific. Doesn’t matter what variant you get. It doesn’t even matter what type of coronavirus is coming in. They will protect you. Unless, of course, you suppress this level of innate immunity, or it is, for example, out-competed by long lived specific antibodies. . . .

Immunizing somebody is installing a new software on your computer. Don’t forget. I mean, these antibodies, they will be recalled every single time you’re encountering a coronavirus, right? I mean, you cannot just erase this. So this is very serious. This is very serious.
* * *
I know there is reports on this, and there is a lot of serious thoughts about this. But I think what we are talking about right now, the epidemic or the pandemic problem of having a population that is at no point during the pandemic and to large extent, due to our intervention, has not a strong immune response. I mean, this is already serious enough. This is more concerning than one or the other adverse events that could maybe elicited, I’m not downplaying it, but that could maybe be elicited because people have antibodies that do no longer match very well with the strain they were or with the strain they are exposed to.

And therefore, you know, they build a complex, they don’t neutralize the virus, they build a complex and this complex could maybe even enhance viral entry into susceptible cells and hence lead to exacerbation of disease.

I mean, this may be possible, but the problem I’m talking about is a global problem. It’s not an individual getting an adverse event. It’s a global problem of, you know, making this virus increasingly infectious because we live it all the time, a chance and opportunity to escape an immune system and to drive this.

So to wake this up, you know, up to a level where the virus is so infectious, that we can even no longer control it, because I mean, these highly infectious strains, some people think, Oh, the virus is going to calm down and it will insert a number of mutations, you know, just to be gentle and kind with us. That’s not going to happen. I mean, this highly infectious range remains.

It is not going to be spontaneous mutations that all of a sudden would become, would make this virus again harmless because such a virus would have a competitive disadvantage, could not be dominant anymore, so that’s not going to happen. So we’re talking about a very, very, very serious problem here.
* * *
It’s very clear what this is going to mean. . . . It is detrimental both on a population level, as on an individual level. And I’m telling you why. I think the population level I explained to you, we are increasingly facing highly infectious strains that already right now, we cannot control because basically what we are doing is that we are turning — when we vaccinate somebody, we are turning this person in a potential asymptomatic carrier that is shedding the virus.
* * *
You are at the same time losing the most precious part of your immune system that you could ever imagine.

And that is your innate immune system, because the innate antibodies, the natural antibodies, the secretary IGMs will be out-competed by these antigen-specific antibodies for binding to the virus. And that will be long lived. That is a long lived suppression.

And you lose every protection against any viral variant or coronavirus variant, et cetera. So this means that you are left just with no single immune response with your, you know, it’s none, your immunity has become nil.

It’s all gone. The antibodies don’t work anymore. And your your innate immunity has been completely bypassed and this while highly infectious strains are circulating. . . . So, I mean, if that isn’t clear enough, I really don’t get it.
* * *
. . . I’ve no criticism on the vaccines, but please use the right vaccine at the right place. And don’t use it in the heat of a pandemic on millions of millions of people.

We are going to pay a huge price for this. And I’m becoming emotional because I’m thinking of my children, of the younger generation. I mean, it’s just impossible what we are doing. We don’t understand the pandemic.

We have been turning it into an artificial pandemic. . . . What we are now doing is that we are really chasing this virus and it becomes all, you know, increasingly infectious. And I mean, this is just a situation that is completely, completely completely out of control.

So it’s also, we are now getting plenty of asymptomatic shedders. People who shed the virus because if they are vaccinated or they have even antibodies from previous disease, they can no longer control these highly infectious variants.
* * *
https://21stcenturywire.com/2021/03/16/ ... -campaign/
Last edited by Maddy on Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:25 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by glennds » Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:41 am

Is the length of immunity post vaccination known?

Does it vary between the three approved vaccinations? Would a person have longer immunity with one over the others?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:49 am

dualstow wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 11:08 am
sophie wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 9:37 am
there is that Danish prospective study that the noted bona fide public health authorities really hate, because it indeed says there is no difference :-).
Interesting.

We endlessly debate lockdowns, the vaccines and masks. For me, masks are the weirdest one.

Lockdowns hurt business, mental health and quality of life vs gatherings like the motorcycle clubs in South Dakota really do lead to mass viral spread and death. -- I get that.

Vaccines may very well save lives vs Some people think vaccines are going to hurt them. -- I get that.

Masks:
For those of you who don't wear them, is it bc you feel the whole idea is stupid and therefore your dislike for participating is stronger than any concern about being harassed? I mean that in a sincere way not a snarky way, bc unless you have a breathing problem there is no physical harm coming from wearing a mask.

My cons:
• glasses fog up
• Can't people watch. I miss people's faces on the street.
• Criminals are harder to surveil and catch. (I wonder if some anti-masker non-criminals like that they are less often surveiled. Less of a police state?)

My pros:
• I sometimes get a runny nose at farmers markets in the cold air and this covers it up. Overall, much of my grooming is now optional. O0
• Homeless guy sneezed on me earlier this year. My mask may not save me but it sure felt better.
Other:
My wife is Asian and an Asian not wearing a mask in the U.S. is asking to be harassed. Am I saying they deserve it? Of course not. I'm saying they leave themselves open to it. Sad situation.

Notice that none of the above has to do with COVID-19. Even I have Fauci fatigue.
I have heard that argument put forth by pro-mask people constantly: It is just not that big of a deal to wear a mask so why are you arguing it.

Putting aside what everyone else has said about masks actually having negative health and psychological effects...even if masks truly had no negative effects, that alone is not reason for me to just go along with it. If we are going to suddenly pass laws that say I need to do or wear such and such everywhere I go and my elementary school child has to do it all day long in school, even outside at recess, and the teachers will jump on him if he doesnt follow those orders for 1 second, then "no physical harm" or "its not that much of an inconvenience" is simply not a good enough justification for me.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by dualstow » Thu Mar 18, 2021 11:56 am

Thank you.
For the record, I'm not putting forth an "argument."
I'm just asking out of curiosity because I honestly don't give a damn if someone doesn't want to wear a mask, unless we're stuck together in a small shop that has its own mask policy. I did care 10 months ago. Now I've learned more from Sophie and others, and I've got fatigue. Most people here do wear masks even in the street. Plenty do not.
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sophie
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by sophie » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:36 pm

Dualstow, your "Fauci Fatigue" phrase has really stuck with me - good one!!!!!! I most certainly have it also. Did you come up with that? I googled it but there's no mention of it out there.

Of course, it could be one of the things that has been censored.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by jalanlong » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:36 pm

I was against masks at first because I think that in general if I am going to be ordered to do or wear something then the burden of proof needs to be high on the part of the people requesting that I do it. And to me that wasnt there.

However, as I think I mentioned before, I will fully admit that once masks started becoming a virtue signal instead of a necessary medical instrument then I was out. From mascots and mannequins wearing them, to cheerleaders at NFL games who were entire sections apart from each other in an empty stadium but wearing masks, to Facebook people changing their profile pictures to ones of themselves wearing masks and to the Government of Wisconsin requiring their staff wear masks on Zoom calls, it moved into the realm of propaganda to me. And from that point on I became much more anti-mask than I was previously.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... -HOME.html

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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:40 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:05 pm
Seven hours after shot one of Moderna. No arm soreness, no other effects either so far.

Needle was the smallest ever. If I didn’t see it go in I wouldn’t have known.
Where did you get it?
Strange question, I know. But someone I know needs to find a second shot of Moderna in northern IL after getting the first one in another locale.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:41 pm

glennds wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 9:41 am
Is the length of immunity post vaccination known?

Does it vary between the three approved vaccinations? Would a person have longer immunity with one over the others?
It is not known. We are the testers for that.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:43 pm

I walked up 4 flights of stairs while wearing a mask, and it was noticeably harder on me than normal. I don't know if that says more about masks, or me. It was a thick homemade mask. So I hope it was just the mask.
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:52 pm

I Shrugged wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:40 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed Mar 17, 2021 10:05 pm
Seven hours after shot one of Moderna. No arm soreness, no other effects either so far.

Needle was the smallest ever. If I didn’t see it go in I wouldn’t have known.
Where did you get it?
Strange question, I know. But someone I know needs to find a second shot of Moderna in northern IL after getting the first one in another locale.
EPIC Urgent care in Palatine, IL, Dundee Road.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/EPIC+ ... 88.0241065
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by Cortopassi » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:56 pm

Maddy,

I read, very fast, the transcript.

I wasn't clear on how this current event with Covid is different, from say, when a first major rollout happened for small pox, or polio, or what we do yearly with the flu?

I certainly get that there will be variants, but I am not getting why that is causing us more harm than the variants we create yearly with the flu vaccine?
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by dualstow » Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:59 pm

sophie wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:36 pm
Dualstow, your "Fauci Fatigue" phrase has really stuck with me
...Did you come up with that? I googled it but there's no mention of it out there.
...
I did O0
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Re: Coronavirus General Discussion

Post by pp4me » Thu Mar 18, 2021 1:44 pm

dualstow wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:59 pm
sophie wrote:
Thu Mar 18, 2021 12:36 pm
Dualstow, your "Fauci Fatigue" phrase has really stuck with me
...Did you come up with that? I googled it but there's no mention of it out there.
...
I did O0
For the record, a search on the words "Fauci Fatigue" on the forum yields quite a few results going back to Feb. 17 in a post authored by yours truly.

I probably heard it from somewhere else.
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