Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/30/us/d ... K4DO_dcZtY
A New York Times article which dovetails nicely with what we've just been talking about. "Thousands of Complaints Do Little to Change Police Ways" the title reads.
Again, I'm absolutely not an advocate of violence in general terms. However, there is a time for diplomacy and a time to take action.
A New York Times article which dovetails nicely with what we've just been talking about. "Thousands of Complaints Do Little to Change Police Ways" the title reads.
Again, I'm absolutely not an advocate of violence in general terms. However, there is a time for diplomacy and a time to take action.
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
That quote is amazing. It says so much in so few words.Hal wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:09 pm First off I would like to thank Smith for starting this interesting topic and the forum members for intelligent discussion.
A couple of questions/thoughts....
In the US, did peaceful demonstrations or violent riots ever change anything? I always remember General Haigs quote back in the 80's
Could anyone explain to me why Jesus used violence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple
From what I understand (perhaps incorrectly) the US was founded on Christian principles, so how did the founders want change to be made and how does that tie in with your right to bear arms?
I'm not sure about the cleansing of the Temple. I am not that knowledgeable about Christianity and even less so on biblical history.
Neil deGrasse Tyson did an interesting segment on the Joe Rogan podcast regarding America's founding as an expressly non-Christian nation. There's supposed to be a clear separation between church and state in addition to religious freedom. Though of course in many parts of the country it seems as though these core principles are not shared today. This religious freedom is one of the biggest reasons why America attracted so many immigrants historically.
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
I don’t know, but thank you for linking that page. I learned some new things.Hal wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:09 pm Could anyone explain to me why Jesus used violence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple
..
9pm EST Explosions in Iran (Isfahan) and Syria and Iraq. Not yet confirmed.
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
I think this might be somewhat related to this topic.
How close or far do you live from any of the unrest of the last several days?
Closest to me is Boston - 1.75 hours / 90 miles away.
Where I live is quite rural, economically diverse neighborhood, houses with wide ranging values ($100,000 to $500,000?). I'd expect us to be one of the last areas to be affected, if ever.
Vinny
How close or far do you live from any of the unrest of the last several days?
Closest to me is Boston - 1.75 hours / 90 miles away.
Where I live is quite rural, economically diverse neighborhood, houses with wide ranging values ($100,000 to $500,000?). I'd expect us to be one of the last areas to be affected, if ever.
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
10-15 minutes walk from this spot. Hence my curfew sig. We’re locked in for the third night in a row.
9pm EST Explosions in Iran (Isfahan) and Syria and Iraq. Not yet confirmed.
Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
A couple of blocks. Rioters/looters were parking on our street last night, walking up to do their mayhem in the more commercial area.
I don't disagree that violence is needed at times to enact change. However, that violence needs to be directed at the right entity. Workers, store owners, general members of the population aren't the right focus for the issues raised, IMO.
Why aren't they rioting/destroying city hall? Or the houses of politicians? Instead, folks here stormed the "malls"/shopping areas (3 of them) simultaneously. Destroyed small, private businesses. What kind of change does one expect that to create?
Instead, businesses that were already hurting are just in worse shape now, even less likely to re-open or stay afloat.
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
Means you are about only a mile away? Scary. My thoughts are first for the safety of you and your wife and then your neighbors. This is only destructive. Cannot see anything productive resulting from this. Just listened to Trump and it seems like his choice of action will only result in escalation.
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
Again, my thoughts go out to you (and whoever is with you) for safety. I agree with all you say. Don't see the logic of the actions leading to any productive result.drumminj wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:50 pmA couple of blocks. Rioters/looters were parking on our street last night, walking up to do their mayhem in the more commercial area.
I don't disagree that violence is needed at times to enact change. However, that violence needs to be directed at the right entity. Workers, store owners, general members of the population aren't the right focus for the issues raised, IMO.
Why aren't they rioting/destroying city hall? Or the houses of politicians? Instead, folks here stormed the "malls"/shopping areas (3 of them) simultaneously. Destroyed small, private businesses. What kind of change does one expect that to create?
Instead, businesses that were already hurting are just in worse shape now, even less likely to re-open or stay afloat.
Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
Just under a mile (I looked it up). It’s part of my nearly daily routine to go by there, pre-Corona.vnatale wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:56 pm Means you are about only a mile away? Scary. My thoughts are first for the safety of you and your wife and then your neighbors. This is only destructive. Cannot see anything productive resulting from this. Just listened to Trump and it seems like his choice of action will only result in escalation.
Honestly, I agree with Trump’s call for the National Guard.
Exactly. Destroying small businesses that were just getting back on their feet. It’s so stupid. Sends a strong message that may or may not amount to something, but most definitely and immediately ruins a lot of lives and livelihoods. Black-owned businesses included.drumminj wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:50 pm A couple of blocks. Rioters/looters were parking on our street last night, walking up to do their mayhem in the more commercial area.
I don't disagree that violence is needed at times to enact change. However, that violence needs to be directed at the right entity. Workers, store owners, general members of the population aren't the right focus for the issues raised, IMO.
Why aren't they rioting/destroying city hall? Or the houses of politicians? Instead, folks here stormed the "malls"/shopping areas (3 of them) simultaneously. Destroyed small, private businesses. What kind of change does one expect that to create?
Instead, businesses that were already hurting are just in worse shape now, even less likely to re-open or stay afloat.
9pm EST Explosions in Iran (Isfahan) and Syria and Iraq. Not yet confirmed.
Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
Strong agree here. Mobbing private businesses and the homes of ordinary citizens is nowhere close to what you might call the intelligent aggression I was alluding to earlier.
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
They closed the Walmart a few blocks from where I live early last night for fear of the rioters. I live in a small city in Florida so the idea that there could be rioting that close to home was something I would have never expected in a million years. Last time I saw SJW's behaving like that was on the streets of Saigon but at least I was armed with a shotgun. I don't own a gun nowadays but I may have to think about it.
I remember the race riots of the 60's very well but I don't recall that the rioters ever attacked the White House. WTF?
I think there is a lot going on here that has nothing to do with race at all. Expect the blame to be laid at the feet of Donald Trump, both for being a racist and then not taking a hard enough stand against the rioters which I'm hearing today.
I remember the race riots of the 60's very well but I don't recall that the rioters ever attacked the White House. WTF?
I think there is a lot going on here that has nothing to do with race at all. Expect the blame to be laid at the feet of Donald Trump, both for being a racist and then not taking a hard enough stand against the rioters which I'm hearing today.
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
Some views are discussed here:dualstow wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:15 pmI don’t know, but thank you for linking that page. I learned some new things.Hal wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 4:09 pm Could anyone explain to me why Jesus used violence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleansing_of_the_Temple
..
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/ ... the-temple
My personal view: The Triune God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) is a God of justice and a God of mercy, both a God that dispenses law and a God that gives the gospel. Law to drive sinners, everyone, to repent (contrition and turning to faith in the promises of Jesus) so they can hear the gospel - the free forgiveness of sin. See Romans 6:23. Jesus was dispensing “justice” at the temple to those who had not repented, those who were trying to use God for their personal gain rather than listening to hear God’s Word. The account of Jesus being angry with those who do not repent has application throughout history; the God of justice gives non-believers exactly what they deserve - eternal death. The God of mercy gives believers comfort and hope and eternal life, not what they deserve, because Jesus took their sins upon himself and gave them his righteousness. Quite a good deal! YMMV.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
He has also authorized the military to go into cities.
President Trump authorizes US military to respond to riots, looting nationwide
President said Washington, D.C.'s 7 p.m. curfew will be strictly enforced
https://www.wsls.com/news/2020/06/01/pr ... ationwide/
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
Of course I agree with your comments about the police state.
But you're wrong about burglars. Most burglaries in some countries are when the victims are home ("hot burglaries") and in other countries (the US, for example) they are mostly when the victims are not home. The reason is that if a lot of homeowners have guns, the burglar is more likely to be shot if the victims are at home:
"In studies involving interviews of felons, one of the reasons the majority of burglars try to avoid occupied homes is the chance of getting shot. (Increasing the odds of arrest is another.) A study of Pennsylvania burglary inmates reported that many burglars refrain from late-night burglaries because it's hard to tell if anyone is home, several explaining "That's the way to get shot." (Rengert G. and Wasilchick J., Suburban Burglary: A Time and a Place for Everything, 1985, Springfield, IL: Charles Thomas.)
"By comparing criminal victimization surveys from Britain and the Netherlands (countries having low levels of gun ownership) with the U.S., Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck determined that if the U.S. were to have similar rates of "hot" burglaries as these other nations, there would be more than 450,000 additional burglaries per year where the victim was threatened or assaulted. (Britain and the Netherlands have a "hot" burglary rate near 45% versus just under 13% for the U.S., and in the U.S. a victim is threatened or attacked 30% of the time during a "hot" burglary.)
"Source: Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997. "
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
8 billion rounds produced per year: https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/wash ... mmo-a-yearI Shrugged wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 8:49 pm I wonder how many serious gun owners there are in the US. Because the ones I have known have many guns and thousands of rounds of ammo. And there are a lot of them. There have to be hundreds of millions of rounds of ammo in private hands.
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
Are you assuming that the military would all follow orders to attack the citizenry? Because I suspect such an order would be resisted and not just by a few people.vnatale wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:26 amThere are enough of them to take on their police departments. Maybe. But how are they going to do against the military?I Shrugged wrote: ↑Sun May 31, 2020 8:49 pm I wonder how many serious gun owners there are in the US. Because the ones I have known have many guns and thousands of rounds of ammo. And there are a lot of them. There have to be hundreds of millions of rounds of ammo in private hands.
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
We live about 100 miles from Dallas, surrounded by cows. If the Antifa creeps ever come out here, they won't last long.vnatale wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:38 pm I think this might be somewhat related to this topic.
How close or far do you live from any of the unrest of the last several days?
Closest to me is Boston - 1.75 hours / 90 miles away.
Where I live is quite rural, economically diverse neighborhood, houses with wide ranging values ($100,000 to $500,000?). I'd expect us to be one of the last areas to be affected, if ever.
Vinny
Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
7 to 10 blocks away from where i am..Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:03 pmWe live about 100 miles from Dallas, surrounded by cows. If the Antifa creeps ever come out here, they won't last long.vnatale wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 5:38 pm I think this might be somewhat related to this topic.
How close or far do you live from any of the unrest of the last several days?
Closest to me is Boston - 1.75 hours / 90 miles away.
Where I live is quite rural, economically diverse neighborhood, houses with wide ranging values ($100,000 to $500,000?). I'd expect us to be one of the last areas to be affected, if ever.
Vinny
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
We are a relatively tiny group here. When I asked the question I was not expecting so many to be so close. So far it's a fairly highly proportion of those who have disclosed.
Vinny
Vinny
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
Another poster earlier mentioned this as well and I figure I should respond. I agree with your contention actually. I should elaborate about what I meant with the statement you quoted.Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:57 pmOf course I agree with your comments about the police state.
But you're wrong about burglars. Most burglaries in some countries are when the victims are home ("hot burglaries") and in other countries (the US, for example) they are mostly when the victims are not home. The reason is that if a lot of homeowners have guns, the burglar is more likely to be shot if the victims are at home:
"In studies involving interviews of felons, one of the reasons the majority of burglars try to avoid occupied homes is the chance of getting shot. (Increasing the odds of arrest is another.) A study of Pennsylvania burglary inmates reported that many burglars refrain from late-night burglaries because it's hard to tell if anyone is home, several explaining "That's the way to get shot." (Rengert G. and Wasilchick J., Suburban Burglary: A Time and a Place for Everything, 1985, Springfield, IL: Charles Thomas.)
"By comparing criminal victimization surveys from Britain and the Netherlands (countries having low levels of gun ownership) with the U.S., Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck determined that if the U.S. were to have similar rates of "hot" burglaries as these other nations, there would be more than 450,000 additional burglaries per year where the victim was threatened or assaulted. (Britain and the Netherlands have a "hot" burglary rate near 45% versus just under 13% for the U.S., and in the U.S. a victim is threatened or attacked 30% of the time during a "hot" burglary.)
"Source: Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997. "
When I say that owning a gun is not so much about burglars etc., I don't mean to say it's not an effective deterrent. What I was implying was that the principle of gun ownership and the second amendment is first and foremost about the public's relationship to government. It is, as a principle, so dangerous to have a well armed government and unarmed citizens. The defense of oneself from burglars just wasn't as relevant to the political stance I was talking about in the OP.
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
What I read seemed to make sense in that those breaking into a house are going to take the path of least resistance. Therefore, things like having the house brightly lit outside and having a dog are excellent deterrents. I can guarantee that when I had my white German Shepherd who was really quite sweet but who appeared ferocious when you came near my house that anyone with intent coming to my house would say, "Let's go elsewhere."Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:57 pmOf course I agree with your comments about the police state.
But you're wrong about burglars. Most burglaries in some countries are when the victims are home ("hot burglaries") and in other countries (the US, for example) they are mostly when the victims are not home. The reason is that if a lot of homeowners have guns, the burglar is more likely to be shot if the victims are at home:
"In studies involving interviews of felons, one of the reasons the majority of burglars try to avoid occupied homes is the chance of getting shot. (Increasing the odds of arrest is another.) A study of Pennsylvania burglary inmates reported that many burglars refrain from late-night burglaries because it's hard to tell if anyone is home, several explaining "That's the way to get shot." (Rengert G. and Wasilchick J., Suburban Burglary: A Time and a Place for Everything, 1985, Springfield, IL: Charles Thomas.)
"By comparing criminal victimization surveys from Britain and the Netherlands (countries having low levels of gun ownership) with the U.S., Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck determined that if the U.S. were to have similar rates of "hot" burglaries as these other nations, there would be more than 450,000 additional burglaries per year where the victim was threatened or assaulted. (Britain and the Netherlands have a "hot" burglary rate near 45% versus just under 13% for the U.S., and in the U.S. a victim is threatened or attacked 30% of the time during a "hot" burglary.)
"Source: Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997. "
Vinny
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
Yes, of course that was the original reason and still the most important one.Smith1776 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:08 pmAnother poster earlier mentioned this as well and I figure I should respond. I agree with your contention actually. I should elaborate about what I meant with the statement you quoted.Libertarian666 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 6:57 pmOf course I agree with your comments about the police state.
But you're wrong about burglars. Most burglaries in some countries are when the victims are home ("hot burglaries") and in other countries (the US, for example) they are mostly when the victims are not home. The reason is that if a lot of homeowners have guns, the burglar is more likely to be shot if the victims are at home:
"In studies involving interviews of felons, one of the reasons the majority of burglars try to avoid occupied homes is the chance of getting shot. (Increasing the odds of arrest is another.) A study of Pennsylvania burglary inmates reported that many burglars refrain from late-night burglaries because it's hard to tell if anyone is home, several explaining "That's the way to get shot." (Rengert G. and Wasilchick J., Suburban Burglary: A Time and a Place for Everything, 1985, Springfield, IL: Charles Thomas.)
"By comparing criminal victimization surveys from Britain and the Netherlands (countries having low levels of gun ownership) with the U.S., Florida State University criminologist Gary Kleck determined that if the U.S. were to have similar rates of "hot" burglaries as these other nations, there would be more than 450,000 additional burglaries per year where the victim was threatened or assaulted. (Britain and the Netherlands have a "hot" burglary rate near 45% versus just under 13% for the U.S., and in the U.S. a victim is threatened or attacked 30% of the time during a "hot" burglary.)
"Source: Gary Kleck, Targeting Guns: Firearms and Their Control, Walter de Gruyter, Inc., New York, 1997. "
When I say that owning a gun is not so much about burglars etc., I don't mean to say it's not an effective deterrent. What I was implying was that the principle of gun ownership and the second amendment is first and foremost about the public's relationship to government. It is, as a principle, so dangerous to have a well armed government and unarmed citizens. The defense of oneself from burglars just wasn't as relevant to the political stance I was talking about in the OP.
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
If the military turned against the citizens I don't care how well armed those citizens are, they are not going to win. Do any of you know any well-armed citizens who can fight against tanks and planes? The 2nd amendment was written way before either of those was ever imagined.Smith1776 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:08 pm
When I say that owning a gun is not so much about burglars etc., I don't mean to say it's not an effective deterrent. What I was implying was that the principle of gun ownership and the second amendment is first and foremost about the public's relationship to government. It is, as a principle, so dangerous to have a well armed government and unarmed citizens. The defense of oneself from burglars just wasn't as relevant to the political stance I was talking about in the OP.
Vinny
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
Right on, and that's exactly why I detest the insidious and slow erosion of the second amendment via proposals to ban certain "styles" of firearms. It only makes that gap in firepower larger. No "assault-style" firearms? What's next? No pistols and only knives? What then? No knives and only sticks?vnatale wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:19 pmIf the military turned against the citizens I don't care how well armed those citizens are, they are not going to win. Do any of you know any well-armed citizens who can fight against tanks and planes? The 2nd amendment was written way before either of those was ever imagined.Smith1776 wrote: ↑Mon Jun 01, 2020 7:08 pm
When I say that owning a gun is not so much about burglars etc., I don't mean to say it's not an effective deterrent. What I was implying was that the principle of gun ownership and the second amendment is first and foremost about the public's relationship to government. It is, as a principle, so dangerous to have a well armed government and unarmed citizens. The defense of oneself from burglars just wasn't as relevant to the political stance I was talking about in the OP.
Vinny
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Re: Another angle on the recent events in America and the world
+1Simonjester wrote: insurgency by an armed citizenry can work, think guerilla warfare, not only is it effective but at a speed that would make your head spin arms dealers will be selling them equipment to match force... I seriously doubt it would come to that though, because as others have pointed out, the American military are gun and freedom loving citizens
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