Being supportive of rioters

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

stuper1
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:18 pm

Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by stuper1 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:24 pm

The problem is leftist social policies that led to the breakdown of the family especially among black people. Supposedly Democrats are the best friends of black people. In reality, it is a terribly dysfunctional co-dependent relationship. Democrats think they can solve social problems by throwing more money at them, but it doesn't work.

Don't expect improvement on a large scale any time soon. It's not going to happen.

Improvements on a small personal-level scale are always possible for those who will work hard and accept responsibility.
User avatar
sophie
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3756
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:15 pm

Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by sophie » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:25 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:55 pm
I don't think most of us have any concept of living in neighborhoods like some of the ones where we are seeing the riots. Of going to shitty schools. Of being in fear of gangs. I cannot even imagine it. I would think the first thing any sane person would want to do is leave these areas. But I don't know and cannot understand their personal situations. So I can't pass judgement.
I don't get why it's universally assumed that the violence in these neighborhoods is a law of nature, like gravity. Sort of like the logic in the Yogi Berra quote: "Nobody goes there, it's too crowded." Poverty exists in many corners of the world, but the inclination to commit crimes in black communities is pretty unique.

I do feel sorry for kids growing up in that environment, but by the same token you have to sympathize with police who have to go into these neighborhoods every day and face the worst they have to offer. If the police presence is the problem, then maybe cordoning off the neighborhoods in question and stopping any attempt at law enforcement within their boundaries is the answer. Let them live how they want to live. Yes, that means teachers and store owners won't want to go there, but hey, the people in those neighborhoods don't like them either. My niece took a job as a teacher in training in New Orleans with the best of liberal intentions, and she was horribly abused by the kids and got zero support from her supervisors. She quit after a few months. Don't think she's quite so liberal now.
User avatar
moda0306
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 7611
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:05 pm
Location: Minnesota

Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by moda0306 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:49 pm

Gas canister shot at the head of an unarmed man.

https://mobile.twitter.com/jusalotofpai ... 96768?s=21

Old man in a cane not walking fast enough away from riot cops knocked down...

https://www.facebook.com/1173720521/pos ... 986150752/?

Police union attorney talks about shooting protestors...

http://www.calbar.ca.gov/Public/Complaints-Claims

Casually pepper spraying a journalist on the ground...

Wrong link...

https://www.facebook.com/10605968/posts ... 17927/?d=n

Police in the initial minutes of a curfew shooting non-lethal rounds at women on their front porch...

https://www.facebook.com/24697673550836 ... /?vh=e&d=n

Minneapolis cops abandoning their city to encircle the fucking murderer’s house to defend him...

https://www.facebook.com/94136210591581 ... 40094/?d=n

There’s more. There’s so much goddamn more.

Fuck the Police.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2696
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by Xan » Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:57 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:55 pm
We all had an opportunity to go to really good schools, and live in great neighborhoods.

I don't think most of us have any concept of living in neighborhoods like some of the ones where we are seeing the riots. Of going to shitty schools. Of being in fear of gangs.
Here's the thing about the "blame the bad neighborhoods they have to live in" theory: what primarily determines a "good" or "bad" neighborhood is the behavior of the neighbors. Same for the local public school: it's "good" or "bad" primarily based on the behavior of the students and parents.

So yes, you could pick an individual person and say "here's the problem with this guy: he had to grow up in that neighborhood. If he'd lived in a better neighborhood he'd have been just fine". That may well be true.

But at the group level, that doesn't make sense. Saying it boils down to "Black people are having these problems because they have to live near other black people, and you know what trouble THEY are." ...Okay, but why is THAT, then?
stuper1
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1022
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:18 pm

Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by stuper1 » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:27 pm

Lots of people want to make excuses for the poor minorities who can't help their thuggish behavior due to their disadvantaged upbringing.

Doesn't seem like many people want to make excuses for the poor policeman who chooses thuggish behavior due to having to deal with thuggish people frequently.

Which side of the story gets more airplay by the media?

I can predict some unintended economic consequences. Police won't want to work in certain parts of cities. Harder to recruit good cops; easier to recruit bad cops; this will lead to even more thuggish police behavior. Solid businesses won't want to be located in certain parts of cities. Those parts of cities will have worse levels of business and police services and will continue their slide downhill. But you can't expect short-sighted people like those in journalism and looters to think about things like this.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3188
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:49 pm

moda0306 wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 4:42 pm
More important than decrying the behavior of individuals is ultimately what the local, state and federal governments should do...

As a resident very near Mpls, I'd like to see that corrupt police department taken apart like a failed lego project... and while I hate most of the destruction and looting, but hating something isn't a course of action but just an instinct. I love the peaceful protesting, and watching the 3rd Precinct burn was a thing of beauty.

I do agree the National Guard probably needed to be called in... mostly because they're extremely professional, unlike these terrible police departments. If anything, they're to keep the police at bay as much as the destructive wing of the protestors.

The riot police are committing terrible abuse against peaceful protesters around this country in droves. I hope every one of them is fired and arrested for whatever appropriate charges would be filed if a civilian did the same thing.

I generally disagree with bringing in the military, but, once again, think they'd remain far-more professional than these thuggish police forces.


And on a longer-term note, what's most important is reform of these police departments. They're a scourge on our country and should be shattered into a thousand pieces.
By now you are aware that the Minnesota governor and lieutenant government announced an investigation into the practices of the Minneaplolis (?) police department.

Hard for me to reconcile of this with Minnesota for me since prior what would predominantly always first come to me when thinking of Minnesota would be the Minnesota Twins.

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3188
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:56 pm

drumminj wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 5:06 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 2:55 pm
tech, especially, but all,

I grew up in a working class family, dad was a mechanic, mom was a housewife, our grandparents lived with us. My parents were 1st generation immigrants.

My brother and I both graduated college. He is a Dr, I am an engineer. All our kids will have degrees and some with advanced degrees.

We all had an opportunity to go to really good schools, and live in great neighborhoods.

I don't think most of us have any concept of living in neighborhoods like some of the ones where we are seeing the riots. Of going to shitty schools. Of being in fear of gangs. I cannot even imagine it.
My father grew up in a two room house with dirt floors in the rural south (at least this is what I was told - I've not seen it). Assuming that is in fact true, he was able to start there, yet got a college degree and was successful enough to put my brother an I through college so we could do the same (and now we're both financially secure in our own way at mid-life).

Sure, we had opportunity, but it's clear that my grandparents and my father worked to create opportunities for themselves and for us. They weren't born into it. It required work and effort to overcome the circumstances they started in.

Can I relate to the circumstances you describe above? No. But I suspect my father could in many ways, as could his parents, and rather than loot and riot and claim the rest of the world owed them fancy things (well, maybe there's a side of the story I haven't heard :) ) instead they took advantage of the opportunities in our country.

Do you not believe that's an option for folks today? From my perspective, there is plenty of opportunity out there for one to apply themselves and get ahead, work hard and be successful. In fact I'd posit it's easier today, as there are so many ways to succeed that don't require "working your way up the ranks", where one might theoretically encounter negative bias.
Presumably you are white like myself?

People many times make a reference to "white privilege". I think it should be better stated as "black penalty".

My father came from Italy at the age of 13 speaking no English. Because of that it took him until 21 years old to graduate high school. But along the way he got a job with the local electric company and, with a lot of overtime, was making probably the equivalent of $80,000 today.

About 25 years before he came to this country there was extreme prejudice in this country against Italians. Around that time, in some areas of the country they were considered on the same level as Afro-Americans. And, to parallel that there was a one time mass lynching of Italians. In response to that and to somewhat mollify / appease Italy President McKinley created Columbus Day. It was supposed to have been a one-time event but it has lived on.

A lot of people have not had their way paved to success. But for almost forever being black in American means you are starting several steps behind someone who is white.

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
User avatar
drumminj
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 267
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 9:16 pm

Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by drumminj » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:37 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:56 pm
Presumably you are white like myself?

People many times make a reference to "white privilege". I think it should be better stated as "black penalty".

<snip...>

Yes, I am "white" (IMO this is such a large bucket these days).

A lot of people have not had their way paved to success. But for almost forever being black in American means you are starting several steps behind someone who is white.

Vinny
I'm not sure I follow your statement. Why/how is that so?

As you mention, there are/have been many minorities in this country, many that have effectively been slaves (chinese during the early times of railroads) or discriminated against (italians, irish, etc), or simply people who have been poor, lived in bad neighborhoods, economically depressed areas, etc.

For most, you don't see systemic failures to overcome those circumstances. I'm not convinced it's because the system (or the "white man") is keeping blacks down.

If you had a sample of 1000 asians and 1000 blacks in america who did the "same things", and you saw statistically different outcomes, then maybe we have something, but I don't see that as the argument being put forward.

At some point, as mentioned by others above, you need to look at individual and community decisions, cultures, and family. The "system" certainly isn't fair, and it's biased in all kinds of ways, to be sure (right now there's a heavy pro-female bias in tech, for example). But I don't believe the system is the issue after all this time.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3188
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:56 pm

drumminj wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:37 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:56 pm
Presumably you are white like myself?

People many times make a reference to "white privilege". I think it should be better stated as "black penalty".

<snip...>

Yes, I am "white" (IMO this is such a large bucket these days).

A lot of people have not had their way paved to success. But for almost forever being black in American means you are starting several steps behind someone who is white.

Vinny
I'm not sure I follow your statement. Why/how is that so?

As you mention, there are/have been many minorities in this country, many that have effectively been slaves (chinese during the early times of railroads) or discriminated against (italians, irish, etc), or simply people who have been poor, lived in bad neighborhoods, economically depressed areas, etc.

For most, you don't see systemic failures to overcome those circumstances. I'm not convinced it's because the system (or the "white man") is keeping blacks down.

If you had a sample of 1000 asians and 1000 blacks in america who did the "same things", and you saw statistically different outcomes, then maybe we have something, but I don't see that as the argument being put forward.

At some point, as mentioned by others above, you need to look at individual and community decisions, cultures, and family. The "system" certainly isn't fair, and it's biased in all kinds of ways, to be sure (right now there's a heavy pro-female bias in tech, for example). But I don't believe the system is the issue after all this time.
Personal anecdote.

I was 19 years old in 1970. I was working with a black guy a few years older than me. We hit it off because of a mutual love for sports and music. I invited him to come to my house to watch the baseball All Star game on our color TV (a big deal back then).

When I brought him home I saw that my father's boss and wife were visiting. I introduced him to my father and his boss. They both seem to genuinely shake his hand. I was somewhat shocked at how well this was going as this was the first time a black person had ever been in the presence of me and anyone in my family.

We were watching the game when all of a sudden I hear my mother babbling to my father in the kitchen. I said to myself, "This better not be." My father calls me into the kitchen and asks me, "What is he, Puerto Rican?" He then told me that they wanted to watch something else and that he and my friend could go to the basement to watch the game on my black and white TV.

I was absolutely livid. To my friend, it was no big deal. It was a common experience for him. I told him we could not stay in that house.

I then called my brother-in-law and sister (about six years older than me) and told them this was 105 years after the freeing of the slaves and my parents treat him like that? I told them I could not live in the same house as people like that.

Did anything like that ever happen to any of my other friends who I brought to our house?

Things have improved since then but a black person is still not on an equal level to a white person. How many non-white groups are there that consciously hate white people and therefore will not give them an equal opportunity?

I've had tiny tastes of what it is like to be black.

When I was young and had long hair I was: 1) told I could have the job but I'd have to cut my job (to do a factory job) 2) stopped by the police because I had long hair. My hair could easily be changed and I would have avoided both those situations. A black person cannot change skin color.

Now I'm one of the old guys who plays basketball with guys significantly younger than me (some as many as 50 years younger). I'm wide open, they look at me, and then they look elsewhere to pass the ball. It's like they are looking at me but I don't exist. I said, "This is just like it must be to be black. You get looked at or treated like you don't exist." One night I discussed this with a young Puerto Rican guy who could look Afro-African. His response was, "That plus you get treated differently."

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:25 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:56 pm
drumminj wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:37 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:56 pm
Presumably you are white like myself?

People many times make a reference to "white privilege". I think it should be better stated as "black penalty".

<snip...>

Yes, I am "white" (IMO this is such a large bucket these days).

A lot of people have not had their way paved to success. But for almost forever being black in American means you are starting several steps behind someone who is white.

Vinny
I'm not sure I follow your statement. Why/how is that so?

As you mention, there are/have been many minorities in this country, many that have effectively been slaves (chinese during the early times of railroads) or discriminated against (italians, irish, etc), or simply people who have been poor, lived in bad neighborhoods, economically depressed areas, etc.

For most, you don't see systemic failures to overcome those circumstances. I'm not convinced it's because the system (or the "white man") is keeping blacks down.

If you had a sample of 1000 asians and 1000 blacks in america who did the "same things", and you saw statistically different outcomes, then maybe we have something, but I don't see that as the argument being put forward.

At some point, as mentioned by others above, you need to look at individual and community decisions, cultures, and family. The "system" certainly isn't fair, and it's biased in all kinds of ways, to be sure (right now there's a heavy pro-female bias in tech, for example). But I don't believe the system is the issue after all this time.
Personal anecdote.

I was 19 years old in 1970. I was working with a black guy a few years older than me. We hit it off because of a mutual love for sports and music. I invited him to come to my house to watch the baseball All Star game on our color TV (a big deal back then).

When I brought him home I saw that my father's boss and wife were visiting. I introduced him to my father and his boss. They both seem to genuinely shake his hand. I was somewhat shocked at how well this was going as this was the first time a black person had ever been in the presence of me and anyone in my family.

We were watching the game when all of a sudden I hear my mother babbling to my father in the kitchen. I said to myself, "This better not be." My father calls me into the kitchen and asks me, "What is he, Puerto Rican?" He then told me that they wanted to watch something else and that he and my friend could go to the basement to watch the game on my black and white TV.

I was absolutely livid. To my friend, it was no big deal. It was a common experience for him. I told him we could not stay in that house.

I then called my brother-in-law and sister (about six years older than me) and told them this was 105 years after the freeing of the slaves and my parents treat him like that? I told them I could not live in the same house as people like that.

Did anything like that ever happen to any of my other friends who I brought to our house?

Things have improved since then but a black person is still not on an equal level to a white person. How many non-white groups are there that consciously hate white people and therefore will not give them an equal opportunity?

I've had tiny tastes of what it is like to be black.

When I was young and had long hair I was: 1) told I could have the job but I'd have to cut my job (to do a factory job) 2) stopped by the police because I had long hair. My hair could easily be changed and I would have avoided both those situations. A black person cannot change skin color.

Now I'm one of the old guys who plays basketball with guys significantly younger than me (some as many as 50 years younger). I'm wide open, they look at me, and then they look elsewhere to pass the ball. It's like they are looking at me but I don't exist. I said, "This is just like it must be to be black. You get looked at or treated like you don't exist." One night I discussed this with a young Puerto Rican guy who could look Afro-African. His response was, "That plus you get treated differently."

Vinny
Vinny, your story is the story of the world.

When I was 19 I drove a couple of hot young Mexican gals from La Rumorosa to Mexicali to go skating. I was the only güero in the place. With the best looking gals. I was lucky to get out alive.

Try going to China. Or a remote Hawaiian village. Or Kyoto. Or East Texas.
If you're not from the local tribe, you had better watch your P's and Q's. And say yes'm and thank you.

It's the way of the world Vinny. BTW, when was the last time you were in Sicily? Last time I was there, they destroyed my steak and I said, No worries, I like it this way...
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3188
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:56 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:25 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:56 pm
drumminj wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 7:37 pm
vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 6:56 pm
Presumably you are white like myself?

People many times make a reference to "white privilege". I think it should be better stated as "black penalty".

<snip...>

Yes, I am "white" (IMO this is such a large bucket these days).

A lot of people have not had their way paved to success. But for almost forever being black in American means you are starting several steps behind someone who is white.

Vinny
I'm not sure I follow your statement. Why/how is that so?

As you mention, there are/have been many minorities in this country, many that have effectively been slaves (chinese during the early times of railroads) or discriminated against (italians, irish, etc), or simply people who have been poor, lived in bad neighborhoods, economically depressed areas, etc.

For most, you don't see systemic failures to overcome those circumstances. I'm not convinced it's because the system (or the "white man") is keeping blacks down.

If you had a sample of 1000 asians and 1000 blacks in america who did the "same things", and you saw statistically different outcomes, then maybe we have something, but I don't see that as the argument being put forward.

At some point, as mentioned by others above, you need to look at individual and community decisions, cultures, and family. The "system" certainly isn't fair, and it's biased in all kinds of ways, to be sure (right now there's a heavy pro-female bias in tech, for example). But I don't believe the system is the issue after all this time.
Personal anecdote.

I was 19 years old in 1970. I was working with a black guy a few years older than me. We hit it off because of a mutual love for sports and music. I invited him to come to my house to watch the baseball All Star game on our color TV (a big deal back then).

When I brought him home I saw that my father's boss and wife were visiting. I introduced him to my father and his boss. They both seem to genuinely shake his hand. I was somewhat shocked at how well this was going as this was the first time a black person had ever been in the presence of me and anyone in my family.

We were watching the game when all of a sudden I hear my mother babbling to my father in the kitchen. I said to myself, "This better not be." My father calls me into the kitchen and asks me, "What is he, Puerto Rican?" He then told me that they wanted to watch something else and that he and my friend could go to the basement to watch the game on my black and white TV.

I was absolutely livid. To my friend, it was no big deal. It was a common experience for him. I told him we could not stay in that house.

I then called my brother-in-law and sister (about six years older than me) and told them this was 105 years after the freeing of the slaves and my parents treat him like that? I told them I could not live in the same house as people like that.

Did anything like that ever happen to any of my other friends who I brought to our house?

Things have improved since then but a black person is still not on an equal level to a white person. How many non-white groups are there that consciously hate white people and therefore will not give them an equal opportunity?

I've had tiny tastes of what it is like to be black.

When I was young and had long hair I was: 1) told I could have the job but I'd have to cut my job (to do a factory job) 2) stopped by the police because I had long hair. My hair could easily be changed and I would have avoided both those situations. A black person cannot change skin color.

Now I'm one of the old guys who plays basketball with guys significantly younger than me (some as many as 50 years younger). I'm wide open, they look at me, and then they look elsewhere to pass the ball. It's like they are looking at me but I don't exist. I said, "This is just like it must be to be black. You get looked at or treated like you don't exist." One night I discussed this with a young Puerto Rican guy who could look Afro-African. His response was, "That plus you get treated differently."

Vinny
Vinny, your story is the story of the world.

When I was 19 I drove a couple of hot young Mexican gals from La Rumorosa to Mexicali to go skating. I was the only güero in the place. With the best looking gals. I was lucky to get out alive.

Try going to China. Or a remote Hawaiian village. Or Kyoto. Or East Texas.
If you're not from the local tribe, you had better watch your P's and Q's. And say yes'm and thank you.

It's the way of the world Vinny. BTW, when was the last time you were in Sicily? Last time I was there, they destroyed my steak and I said, No worries, I like it this way...
I am a 100% Italian-American whose ancestors have not been in this country for not even 125 years. Many Afro-Americans' ancestors go back 150 years, 200 years, even more.

Why am I part of the "local tribe" in America while they are not?

Also, I grew up on a town of 70,000 with two high schools. My three one had 2,000 students. We had one black girl in the whole school who I never saw my three years there. I never saw a black person in my town. Yet right next door to us was South Providence, which was 100% black and which had rioting during the country-wide 1967 riots.

Again, why 100 years after they were emancipated were they segregated in the area next to my town? Why were they not part of the "local tribe"?

Vinny

Vinny

Vinny
"I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats."
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 839
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Being supportive of rioters

Post by Mark Leavy » Tue Jun 02, 2020 9:08 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Jun 02, 2020 8:56 pm

I am a 100% Italian-American whose ancestors have not been in this country for not even 125 years. Many Afro-Americans' ancestors go back 150 years, 200 years, even more.

Why am I part of the "local tribe" in America while they are not?

Vinny
The answer is that you are not part of the local tribe except in your very small community. You need to get out more. I don't think you are ready for Italy at all. You would be massacred. My Italian is good enough that I can switch between Florentine, Sicilian and Venetian dialects without a hiccup. But I have American written all over me. No way would I ever disagree with being told to go to the other room. That would be suicide.

Here's an experiment for you. Try gently getting out more in the USA.

Lake Charles
Fairbanks
Millinocket
Billings
Naalehu

If you can get someone to talk to you for more than 5 minutes in any one of these "white" American communities I will personally buy you a wheatgrass shake. You are not part of the "local tribe" in 99.99% of the world. Just like the rest of us.
Post Reply