Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess

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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by Xan » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:40 pm

In Guns, Germs, and Steel, the theory is that people who were able to move east/west did better than those able to move north/south. Farming techniques etc translated to different places along lines of latitude than along lines of longitude. So areas that were temperate and contiguous to other temperate places (North Africa, Europe, Asia) did better than "vertically" aligned places (the Americas, Africa).
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by stuper1 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:44 pm

I don't think that explains why people at different latitudes had different technological innovation rates, but maybe I'm slow.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by sophie » Tue Jun 09, 2020 4:54 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:35 pm
In Kenya, they have a strong family structure, so things work fine.

Here, they don't have a strong family structure, and things aren't working fine.

As a physician, do you agree with me that blacks on average are more muscular than whites, that muscle comes from testosterone, and that testosterone influences impulse control? I'm glad to be proven wrong.
I'm not aware of any racial differences in testosterone. Also not sure about the more muscular part. There are some anatomical differences thought.

I think it's a well-known stereotype around the world among almost every non-black culture that blacks are impulsive as a generalization. Does this stereotype have a physiological basis?
I don't buy either of these assumptions. There is a black resident who I have worked closely with (on research & clinical) for the past 3 years. Impulsive is about the last word I would use to describe him. There are also black faculty members of my acquaintance who, similarly, could not possibly be consistent with that stereotype.

Isn't Africa known as the cradle of civilization? And yet, there's little history of great technological achievements from Africa. Is it racist to think that some groups are more short-term oriented than long-term oriented?
That's an interesting point. I've thought about that one though...it seems like technological achievements have a lot to do with environment. In cold weather you have to be more innovative just to survive. In Africa there is much less to drive you to make technical advances.
Not proof or anything, just a thought. I will also venture to say that there does seem to be a wholly different mindset. Very socially focused and less focused on things/achievements. Living in a rural village and attending Mass was truly an amazing experience - the cohesiveness was something way beyond my experience.
Here's a youtube video. You might think this is exceptional, but it's not - the masses I went to were all just like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chE3cAw ... dio=1&t=26
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by stuper1 » Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:13 pm

Gotcha . . . I know it's not a fun or popular thing to talk about.

When 70% of the NFL players are made up of a race that makes up 13% of the population, I would have thought it's pretty well established that that race is more muscular than the other. But I'm just a crazy guy on the internet, so what do I know.

I certainly believe you about the social focus and cohesion. I'm not trying to denigrate any race. I'm sure every race has its strong and weak points. I also don't think it's wrong to talk about differences between races, but a lot of people disagree, and maybe they're right, at least in this country, given our shameful history where whites took brutal advantage of blacks. I think in some other countries people talk much more openly about racial differences and basically they just acknowledge them, laugh at them, and people just get along with each other while acknowledging their differences.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:39 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 12:35 pm
In Kenya, they have a strong family structure, so things work fine.

Here, they don't have a strong family structure, and things aren't working fine.

As a physician, do you agree with me that blacks on average are more muscular than whites, that muscle comes from testosterone, and that testosterone influences impulse control? I'm glad to be proven wrong.

I think it's a well-known stereotype around the world among almost every non-black culture that blacks are impulsive as a generalization. Does this stereotype have a physiological basis?

Isn't Africa known as the cradle of civilization? And yet, there's little history of great technological achievements from Africa. Is it racist to think that some groups are more short-term oriented than long-term oriented?
That might be indisputable using the NFL and the NBA was key pieces of evidence?

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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:42 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:13 pm
Gotcha . . . I know it's not a fun or popular thing to talk about.

When 70% of the NFL players are made up of a race that makes up 13% of the population, I would have thought it's pretty well established that that race is more muscular than the other. But I'm just a crazy guy on the internet, so what do I know.

I certainly believe you about the social focus and cohesion. I'm not trying to denigrate any race. I'm sure every race has its strong and weak points. I also don't think it's wrong to talk about differences between races, but a lot of people disagree, and maybe they're right, at least in this country, given our shameful history where whites took brutal advantage of blacks. I think in some other countries people talk much more openly about racial differences and basically they just acknowledge them, laugh at them, and people just get along with each other while acknowledging their differences.
To repeat my point, as a percentage of the American NBA players I'm sure that the black portion would be much higher than 70%.

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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:51 pm

Simonjester wrote:
stuper1 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:13 pm

Gotcha . . . I know it's not a fun or popular thing to talk about.

When 70% of the NFL players are made up of a race that makes up 13% of the population, I would have thought it's pretty well established that that race is more muscular than the other. But I'm just a crazy guy on the internet, so what do I know.

I certainly believe you about the social focus and cohesion. I'm not trying to denigrate any race. I'm sure every race has its strong and weak points. I also don't think it's wrong to talk about differences between races, but a lot of people disagree, and maybe they're right, at least in this country, given our shameful history where whites took brutal advantage of blacks. I think in some other countries people talk much more openly about racial differences and basically they just acknowledge them, laugh at them, and people just get along with each other while acknowledging their differences.

you might need to consider as a possibility that American blacks vs africans have been changed by slavery, they were bred and killed based on characteristics, a willful and thinking slave, short life less breeding.... big strong slave life longer life, more kids


Would that have persisted 155 years after the last legal slaves? That's nearly 8 generations?
Simonjester wrote:
well i am not even remotely a geneticist so "i don't know"... but i suspect that unless there is a large influx of new genetic material, (mixing with non slave Africans and with other races) that after 8 generations you might still see strong signs of predominant characteristics. the number of pro athletes and a comparison of America to Africa might hint at the answer...
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by sophie » Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:03 am

stuper1 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:13 pm
When 70% of the NFL players are made up of a race that makes up 13% of the population, I would have thought it's pretty well established that that race is more muscular than the other. But I'm just a crazy guy on the internet, so what do I know.
Don't you think that could be due to a cultural bias? In other words, black society generally values a football player more than, say, a physician or lawyer. The opposite is true among other societies e.g. Jewish communities.

Traditionally, Irish Catholics have made up the majority of the NYPD - but that's not so true anymore, as the force is now dominated by Hispanics. Does that somehow tell you about physical attributes of Irish Catholics? Or of Hispanics? And wouldn't the change argue against genetics as the primary driver?

Similarly, pro baseball used to be almost exclusively white. It's now largely Hispanic. Black players are very much a minority. How would you reconcile this with the football/baseball statistics, while relying on a genetic explanation?

The one instance where you could maybe argue a case for genetics: marathon running. Kenyan runners manage to win the NYC marathon every time. It's not muscle though, it's about their build (long legs) and the fact that track is very popular in Kenya.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 8:14 am

sophie wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:03 am
stuper1 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:13 pm
When 70% of the NFL players are made up of a race that makes up 13% of the population, I would have thought it's pretty well established that that race is more muscular than the other. But I'm just a crazy guy on the internet, so what do I know.
Don't you think that could be due to a cultural bias? In other words, black society generally values a football player more than, say, a physician or lawyer. The opposite is true among other societies e.g. Jewish communities.

Traditionally, Irish Catholics have made up the majority of the NYPD - but that's not so true anymore, as the force is now dominated by Hispanics. Does that somehow tell you about physical attributes of Irish Catholics? Or of Hispanics? And wouldn't the change argue against genetics as the primary driver?

Similarly, pro baseball used to be almost exclusively white. It's now largely Hispanic. Black players are very much a minority. How would you reconcile this with the football/baseball statistics, while relying on a genetic explanation?

The one instance where you could maybe argue a case for genetics: marathon running. Kenyan runners manage to win the NYC marathon every time. It's not muscle though, it's about their build (long legs) and the fact that track is very popular in Kenya.
Basketball used to be dominated by... Jews!

"The Philadelphia basketball team had a pint-sized but flashy star shooter. Its old school coach was more teacher than tough disciplinarian. References to the Biblical David abounded in the media.

"Sounds like the NBA's new media darling, the Philadelphia 76ers, who captured the hearts of much of America with their gritty determination.

"Nope. It's the South Philadelphia Hebrew Association SPHAs (pronounced "spas"), which dominated basketball in the 1920s and '30s. It's a team steeped in basketball lore.

"The flashy shooter was set-shot expert Inky Lautman and the Biblical David was the six-pointed star on the early SPHA's jerseys. The savvy coach was Eddie Gottlieb, who was also the owner of the most successful team in basketball history. "

(from http://www.jewishmag.com/45mag/basketba ... etball.htm)
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by sophie » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:14 am

#shutdownSTEM

A one-day "strike" by researchers in STEM fields. Even prestigious journals have gotten into the act:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586- ... f%20racism.

This has seriously gone too far. How can you be a scientist and not understand how bogus the complaints are? I found out about it when a research group meeting was cancelled today because of it. I decided to honor the day by listening to a Candace Owens youtube video. Now back to work with me!
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:56 am

sophie wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:14 am
#shutdownSTEM

A one-day "strike" by researchers in STEM fields. Even prestigious journals have gotten into the act:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586- ... f%20racism.

This has seriously gone too far. How can you be a scientist and not understand how bogus the complaints are? I found out about it when a research group meeting was cancelled today because of it. I decided to honor the day by listening to a Candace Owens youtube video. Now back to work with me!
Many scientists don't apply the scientific approach to the world in anything but their own field.
If they did, the world would be a better place.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by pp4me » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:26 pm

sophie wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 7:03 am
stuper1 wrote:
Tue Jun 09, 2020 5:13 pm
When 70% of the NFL players are made up of a race that makes up 13% of the population, I would have thought it's pretty well established that that race is more muscular than the other. But I'm just a crazy guy on the internet, so what do I know.
Don't you think that could be due to a cultural bias? In other words, black society generally values a football player more than, say, a physician or lawyer. The opposite is true among other societies e.g. Jewish communities.

Traditionally, Irish Catholics have made up the majority of the NYPD - but that's not so true anymore, as the force is now dominated by Hispanics. Does that somehow tell you about physical attributes of Irish Catholics? Or of Hispanics? And wouldn't the change argue against genetics as the primary driver?

Similarly, pro baseball used to be almost exclusively white. It's now largely Hispanic. Black players are very much a minority. How would you reconcile this with the football/baseball statistics, while relying on a genetic explanation?

The one instance where you could maybe argue a case for genetics: marathon running. Kenyan runners manage to win the NYC marathon every time. It's not muscle though, it's about their build (long legs) and the fact that track is very popular in Kenya.
What about IQ? Going there can be very dangerous as Charles Murray learned the hard way. That there are clear variations in IQ that can be broken down statistically by race I think he showed very effectively no matter how much people want to deny it. I've only read summaries of his work so I'm not sure whether he even posited that it was due to genetics but he is now a pariah for simply observing the obvious. I suspect that if Caucasians had come out on the bottom of the scale instead of just behind Jews and Asians that would probably be easily accepted but unfortunately it was blacks. So obviously this has to be due to "systemic racism" (translation - evil white people).
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by stuper1 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:52 pm

You can have smart people and dumb people from every race, so nothing that can be said would apply to any one individual. It certainly seems possible to me that the average IQs of different races could vary. But then again it may not be the case. It seems a very hard thing to measure in an unbiased manner. I'm not sure what we would do with that information anyway in terms of setting social policies. To me, we have what we have, and we need to do the best with it, and set social policies to encourage every person to do the best with what they've got.

Regarding helping disadvantaged people, everybody always says that we need to fix the education system. Of course, that doesn't work if the family structure is broken. We can keep pouring boatloads of money into education, but if there aren't parents at home to encourage the kids, then it will make little to no difference. The policies that should be adopted are ones designed to strengthen the family, but I'm not holding my breath expecting that to happen, because those policies are not politically useful.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by sophie » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:04 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:52 pm
Regarding helping disadvantaged people, everybody always says that we need to fix the education system. Of course, that doesn't work if the family structure is broken. We can keep pouring boatloads of money into education, but if there aren't parents at home to encourage the kids, then it will make little to no difference. The policies that should be adopted are ones designed to strengthen the family, but I'm not holding my breath expecting that to happen, because those policies are not politically useful.
+1.

Remember the thread about how teachers in many inner city schools are forbidden to do anything to stop the violence & all out war that goes on in classrooms? because of race relation reasons?

Perhaps some community effort involving extended family counseling might help, but what it will require first and foremost is black leaders speaking up about the problem. I was hopeful that President Obama would do this, after he got off to a great start by admonishing inner city kids for dressing like clowns, with their pants down and underwear showing, and to "be respectful". Unfortunately, that was his last effort in that direction. I guess he must have got complaints for it.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by stuper1 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:09 pm

Limiting immigration and bringing back manufacturing jobs would go a long way toward helping working class people to be able to be responsible family members.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by Xan » Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:29 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:52 pm
Regarding helping disadvantaged people, everybody always says that we need to fix the education system. Of course, that doesn't work if the family structure is broken. We can keep pouring boatloads of money into education, but if there aren't parents at home to encourage the kids, then it will make little to no difference. The policies that should be adopted are ones designed to strengthen the family, but I'm not holding my breath expecting that to happen, because those policies are not politically useful.
Stossel's "Stupid in America" special (which is fantastic, by the way) pretty well illustrates that the problem with education is not lack of money. He followed a number of small schools (I think they were charter schools) operating on an absolute shoestring which were achieving better outcomes in every way than the crummy public school which spent many times the amount of money per student. I remember one of them that couldn't afford a full-time janitor, and so the kids were responsible for cleaning up the cafeteria, setting up chairs, and a number of other things. These tasks helped the kids to have some skin in the game in their school.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by dualstow » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:38 pm

sophie wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 10:14 am
#shutdownSTEM

A one-day "strike" by researchers in STEM fields. Even prestigious journals have gotten into the act:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586- ... f%20racism.

This has seriously gone too far. How can you be a scientist and not understand how bogus the complaints are? I found out about it when a research group meeting was cancelled today because of it. I decided to honor the day by listening to a Candace Owens youtube video. Now back to work with me!
👍 (thumbs up to the Candace Owens watching, not the canceling).
traveling...
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by Tortoise » Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:54 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:09 pm
Limiting immigration and bringing back manufacturing jobs would go a long way toward helping working class people to be able to be responsible family members.
Two other huge contributors to the destruction of working-class families:
  1. The welfare state, which allows and encourages mothers to have kids without a husband/father to help support them
  2. Marriage laws, which are now heavily biased in favor of women, thus strongly discouraging men from getting married
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by stuper1 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:24 pm

I would venture to say that just through bad luck a lot of these non-racist negative factors started showing up at just about the time when the last of the true systemic racism was being eliminated. This has made it difficult to disentangle the causes of negative outcomes. So, we'll continue to throw money down the drain for stupid big-government social programs that not only don't help, but actually make things worse, rather than dealing with the real problems.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by pp4me » Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:52 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:52 pm
Regarding helping disadvantaged people, everybody always says that we need to fix the education system. Of course, that doesn't work if the family structure is broken.
I think It also doesn't work if you start by assuming that every one is equal in terms of IQ, or at least an IQ that we have correlated with success in life. because it simply isn't true, racial disparities notwithstanding. It just sets some people up for failure which they will have to deal with for the rest of their lives whether they be black, white or any other race.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:08 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 2:54 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 1:09 pm
Limiting immigration and bringing back manufacturing jobs would go a long way toward helping working class people to be able to be responsible family members.
Two other huge contributors to the destruction of working-class families:
  1. The welfare state, which allows and encourages mothers to have kids without a husband/father to help support them
  2. Marriage laws, which are now heavily biased in favor of women, thus strongly discouraging men from getting married
Right. The "War on Poverty", the "War on Drugs", and the "War on Men" have all contributed mightily.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by stuper1 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:23 pm

pp4me wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 3:52 pm
stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:52 pm
Regarding helping disadvantaged people, everybody always says that we need to fix the education system. Of course, that doesn't work if the family structure is broken.
I think It also doesn't work if you start by assuming that every one is equal in terms of IQ, or at least an IQ that we have correlated with success in life. because it simply isn't true, racial disparities notwithstanding. It just sets some people up for failure which they will have to deal with for the rest of their lives whether they be black, white or any other race.
When my kid started high school, I was very thankful that an acquaintance told me to sign her up for all of the Honors and AP classes that are available. Anyone can sign up for them, but in practice only the motivated students do so, or the students like my daughter who are told they have to by their parents. Apparently, the non-Honors/AP classes can be a disaster because of all the troublemakers. I truly am not sure that we would have learned about this system unless the acquaintance had told me, because the school system is so disorganized that even things that are very important are hardly communicated. I talked to other parents who didn't even know they had a choice about which level of classes to pick. It's basically a self-segregated system. Frankly I'm surprised that it has been allowed to survive. Maybe it survives because they do such a poor job of communicating about it. Maybe that's on purpose. I don't know.
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Re: Every knee shall bow, every tongue confess

Post by pp4me » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:24 pm

I can't find the link but I read an article the other day about how racism has become the new religion in America. The photo I posted at the start of this thread with Dems kneeling in congress under the leadership of Nancy Pelosi just confirms what that article was saying.

And then there was the recent case of Drew Brees, the quarterback of the New Orleans Saints who had to apologize for his statement about not disrespecting the American flag by kneeling in protest. He has since offered a "sincere" apology for this and his wife even offered a more sincere one with tears in her eyes for the extreme "pain" that she and her husband had caused.

Another black NFL player said his apology was NOT accepted. He needs to do more.

In other words, we white people must admit we are sinners simply by the fact of being born white and there is no hope for redemption unless we accept the orthodoxy of the new religion.

Personally, I DO think Drew Brees was sincere in his apology because he has announced that this is his last year in the NFL and he doesn't want to be looking across the line of scrimmage at black players intent on ending his career even earlier than he was hoping. His wife probably has similar hopes.

Now I have to wait and see how Tom Brady in Tampa deals with the situation because his is similar in the last few years of his career. Is he going to kneel in unison with the rest of the team on opening day which might well happen or show true leadership and say "F**k it, let's play some football guys"? I always liked Drew Brees and why would you not, because he's a sincere Christian who has done a lot of good for the city of New Orleans during recent times of distress. But now I hope Tom Brady creams his ass.
Last edited by pp4me on Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by Libertarian666 » Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:32 pm

stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:52 pm
You can have smart people and dumb people from every race, so nothing that can be said would apply to any one individual. It certainly seems possible to me that the average IQs of different races could vary. But then again it may not be the case. It seems a very hard thing to measure in an unbiased manner.
If you don't accept IQ measurements as valid, then you have to throw out all the other quantitative results of psychology too. IQ is by far the best validated psychological measurement.

And no one in psychology actually doubts that there are significant IQ differences between races. They just don't want to talk about it because it is politically incorrect.

There's a reason that about 20% of all Nobel Prizes, even including the non-science prizes that represent political posturing rather than merit, have been awarded to less than 0.2% of the world population. Even the extremely PC Wikipedia acknowledges this: "Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 900 individuals,[1] of whom at least 20% were Jews although the Jewish population comprises less than 0.2% of the world's population." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_J ... _laureates.

I'm pretty sure the over-representation is even more complete in the actual science prizes.
stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:52 pm
I'm not sure what we would do with that information anyway in terms of setting social policies. To me, we have what we have, and we need to do the best with it, and set social policies to encourage every person to do the best with what they've got.

Regarding helping disadvantaged people, everybody always says that we need to fix the education system. Of course, that doesn't work if the family structure is broken. We can keep pouring boatloads of money into education, but if there aren't parents at home to encourage the kids, then it will make little to no difference. The policies that should be adopted are ones designed to strengthen the family, but I'm not holding my breath expecting that to happen, because those policies are not politically useful.
Exactly.
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Re: Every knee shall, every tongue confess

Post by Mark Leavy » Wed Jun 10, 2020 9:15 pm

Libertarian666 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 4:32 pm
If you don't accept IQ measurements as valid, then you have to throw out all the other quantitative results of psychology too. IQ is by far the best validated psychological measurement.

And no one in psychology actually doubts that there are significant IQ differences between races. They just don't want to talk about it because it is politically incorrect.

There's a reason that about 20% of all Nobel Prizes, even including the non-science prizes that represent political posturing rather than merit, have been awarded to less than 0.2% of the world population. Even the extremely PC Wikipedia acknowledges this: "Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 900 individuals,[1] of whom at least 20% were Jews although the Jewish population comprises less than 0.2% of the world's population." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_J ... _laureates.

I'm pretty sure the over-representation is even more complete in the actual science prizes.
stuper1 wrote:
Wed Jun 10, 2020 12:52 pm
I'm not sure what we would do with that information anyway in terms of setting social policies. To me, we have what we have, and we need to do the best with it, and set social policies to encourage every person to do the best with what they've got.

Regarding helping disadvantaged people, everybody always says that we need to fix the education system. Of course, that doesn't work if the family structure is broken. We can keep pouring boatloads of money into education, but if there aren't parents at home to encourage the kids, then it will make little to no difference. The policies that should be adopted are ones designed to strengthen the family, but I'm not holding my breath expecting that to happen, because those policies are not politically useful.
Exactly.
IQ is interesting. It is a valuable number. For a lot of different reasons. It is also a heavily abused statistic by folks who don't understand math.

First of all, anyone with an IQ 2 standard deviations below the norm will NOT amount to anything in the modern Western world. (about 70). But in Papua New Guinea, many a top tracker and hunter fall in that category.

And in contrast, 2 standard deviations above the norm (about 130) are no guarantee of success in the Western World. Have you ever been to a Mensa meeting? Ouch. A lot of losers there.

So, some takeaways. If you live in the US and you come from a low IQ race or culture, you are pretty much screwed unless you are way off of the curve. Conversely, a high IQ doesn't guarantee you anything. You might do okay, but we don't know why.
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