Grover Norquist now!

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vnatale
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Grover Norquist now!

Post by vnatale » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:02 am

Grover Norquist on C-Span now for the next 45 minutes! With NO commercial interruptions!


Vinny
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by drumminj » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:20 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:02 am
Grover Norquist on C-Span now for the next 45 minutes! With NO commercial interruptions!
Now *that* is a hard-core, friday night party! O0
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by vnatale » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:30 pm

drumminj wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:20 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:02 am
Grover Norquist on C-Span now for the next 45 minutes! With NO commercial interruptions!
Now *that* is a hard-core, friday night party! O0
That 8:00 AM this morning. Nice listening to his weasel answer to a caller confronting Mr. Tiny, Starve the Government seek and accept a PPP loan for his Foundation. A lot of political peoples' positions seem "to evolve" once it affects them. Like all the ones who were against abortion or gay people until it hits their own families.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by drumminj » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:42 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:30 pm
drumminj wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:20 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:02 am
Grover Norquist on C-Span now for the next 45 minutes! With NO commercial interruptions!
Now *that* is a hard-core, friday night party! O0
That 8:00 AM this morning. Nice listening to his weasel answer to a caller confronting Mr. Tiny, Starve the Government seek and accept a PPP loan for his Foundation. A lot of political peoples' positions seem "to evolve" once it affects them. Like all the ones who were against abortion or gay people until it hits their own families.

Vinny
Oops, I mis-read "5:02am"(pacific) as "5:02pm". Don't I feel stupid now....sorry!

To be more on topic, most people's positions "evolve" once things affect them. In some situations it may indicate growth from new data -- a better understanding, and adjusting one's opinions as a result. In others, I suppose it just indicates they're fickle and the positions were loosely held?
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by vnatale » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:37 pm

drumminj wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:42 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:30 pm
drumminj wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:20 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:02 am
Grover Norquist on C-Span now for the next 45 minutes! With NO commercial interruptions!
Now *that* is a hard-core, friday night party! O0
That 8:00 AM this morning. Nice listening to his weasel answer to a caller confronting Mr. Tiny, Starve the Government seek and accept a PPP loan for his Foundation. A lot of political peoples' positions seem "to evolve" once it affects them. Like all the ones who were against abortion or gay people until it hits their own families.

Vinny
Oops, I mis-read "5:02am"(pacific) as "5:02pm". Don't I feel stupid now....sorry!

To be more on topic, most people's positions "evolve" once things affect them. In some situations it may indicate growth from new data -- a better understanding, and adjusting one's opinions as a result. In others, I suppose it just indicates they're fickle and the positions were loosely held?
I generally take it as they make rules that apply to others, which presently do not apply to them (and, they imagine would never apply to them). But as soon as it ends up applying to them and they suffer the same consequences as the others, now, seemingly all of a sudden, their position "evolve".

I think it falls into the realm of double standard or hypocrisy or both. Also, perhaps, reveals a lack of empathy, foresight, thinking things through?

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by Xan » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:23 am

So your example is people who think killing babies is wrong up until they find a baby in their lives who needs killin'. And this is moral "progress"?
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:50 am

I thought of an anti-abortion female who gets impregnated by a rapist and wants to abort it.

Alternatively, the guy who got his girl pregnant and was happy to have a baby on the way, then she aborts it.

As an aside, Grover Norquist sounds like a tweed jacket in name-form.
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by vnatale » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:17 am

Xan wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:23 am
So your example is people who think killing babies is wrong up until they find a baby in their lives who needs killin'. And this is moral "progress"?
I'm not saying that they "think" that killing babies is wrong. I'm saying that they "say" that killing babies is wrong. Does not necessarily mean that is what they "think". They may well be "saying" that strictly to get elected. But, then, when it hits home, all of a sudden it "hits home" and their position has now "evolved".

Vinny
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by vnatale » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:19 am

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:50 am
I thought of an anti-abortion female who gets impregnated by a rapist and wants to abort it.

Alternatively, the guy who got his girl pregnant and was happy to have a baby on the way, then she aborts it.

As an aside, Grover Norquist sounds like a tweed jacket in name-form.
Time to now ask this question of this extremely logical group.

If you consider yourself to be either anti-abortion or pro-life (whichever label you choose).....are you against abortion in all cases or do you have exceptions?

Vinny
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:46 am

I'm against murder in all its various forms. I also do not equate killing (such as in a just war, or after sentencing by a jury of your peers) with murder. I think it is exceptionaly hypocritical to be for abortion and against the death penalty.
Last edited by Mountaineer on Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by Mark Leavy » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:47 am

If the kid's own mom wants to kill it, what are the chances that the kid would grow up to be a net asset to society?
I'd just as soon not be the one to pay for the cost to support it. Or the cost to kill it. Generally, everyone involved in those situations is messed up. They don't need advice from me.

In cases such as rape... Start by aborting the rapist. I'm happy to help there.
Then let the victim deal with the damage however she wants. The last thing she needs is one more person forcing her to do or not do something.
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by drumminj » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:56 am

vnatale wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:19 am
If you consider yourself to be either anti-abortion or pro-life (whichever label you choose).....are you against abortion in all cases or do you have exceptions?

Vinny
I would think it depends on what is behind the opinion. If you're pro-life because you believe a fetus is a human being, then it logically follows that it's murder, and any justifications made for an abortion can/should also be made to justify killing adult humans, and vice-versa.

If the basis of one's belief is something different (TBH I don't know another reasoning put out there why abortion is wrong), then I'd look at the basis of that belief and expect it to be consistent, but that may not mean one would be against it in all cases.

Do not that I don't hold pro-life/anti-abortion positions, but am merely suggesting that one can hold those positions and still be morally consistent when being "okay" with abortion in certain circumstances (just like we consider it okay to kill another human in defense of one's life).
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:00 am

drumminj wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:56 am
vnatale wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:19 am
If you consider yourself to be either anti-abortion or pro-life (whichever label you choose).....are you against abortion in all cases or do you have exceptions?

Vinny
I would think it depends on what is behind the opinion. If you're pro-life because you believe a fetus is a human being, then it logically follows that it's murder, and any justifications made for an abortion can/should also be made to justify killing adult humans, and vice-versa.
IIRC that's the argument I made in a college Rhetoric and Logic class. The teacher told me I was wrong :P
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by Xan » Sat Jul 11, 2020 10:27 am

That actually was a part of the civil rights movement in the '60s. MLK was adamant that if it's okay to dehumanize anybody, then anybody can be dehumanized. His niece Alveda King carries on his work of championing the lives of the unborn.

For some reason whenever the popular press lionizes MLK, all this is swept under the rug.
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by vnatale » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:36 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:46 am
I'm against murder in all its various forms. I also do not equate killing (such as in a just war, or after sentencing by a jury of your peers) with murder. I think it is exceptionaly hypocritical to be for abortion and against the death penalty.
You did not state if you have any exceptions for abortion.

A "just war" is in the eye of the beholder.

"Sentencing by a jury of your peers" is far from perfect. Our justice system does not deliver justice.

Now that I'm correctly reading your last sentence I may have to agree with it.

Vinny
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by Mountaineer » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:41 pm

vnatale wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:36 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:46 am
I'm against murder in all its various forms. I also do not equate killing (such as in a just war, or after sentencing by a jury of your peers) with murder. I think it is exceptionaly hypocritical to be for abortion and against the death penalty.
1. You did not state if you have any exceptions for abortion.

2. A "just war" is in the eye of the beholder.

3. "Sentencing by a jury of your peers" is far from perfect. Our justice system does not deliver justice.

4. Now that I'm correctly reading your last sentence I may have to agree with it.

Vinny
1. An astute reader you are, unless you can not read between the lines. :)

2. Only for a post-modern worldviewer. I'm more of a pre-modern or modern type that believes in absolute truth.

3. Yep. But it is better than (almost?) all other systems. I've seen our system not deliver justice first hand. The best way to stay out of trouble with the system is to stay out of trouble.

4. Fantastic! Hope springs eternal. ;)
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by vnatale » Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:08 pm

Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:41 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:36 pm
Mountaineer wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:46 am
I'm against murder in all its various forms. I also do not equate killing (such as in a just war, or after sentencing by a jury of your peers) with murder. I think it is exceptionaly hypocritical to be for abortion and against the death penalty.
1. You did not state if you have any exceptions for abortion.

2. A "just war" is in the eye of the beholder.

3. "Sentencing by a jury of your peers" is far from perfect. Our justice system does not deliver justice.

4. Now that I'm correctly reading your last sentence I may have to agree with it.

Vinny
1. An astute reader you are, unless you can not read between the lines. :)

2. Only for a post-modern worldviewer. I'm more of a pre-modern or modern type that believes in absolute truth.

3. Yep. But it is better than (almost?) all other systems. I've seen our system not deliver justice first hand. The best way to stay out of trouble with the system is to stay out of trouble.

4. Fantastic! Hope springs eternal. ;)
1. I cannot read between any lines. I'm all literal, practically no figurative.

2. I too believe in absolute truths. But who is the ultimate decider of what they are?

3. Probably better but far from perfect. You're admitting you've seen it not deliver justice first hand. I'll add my own personal story, which with all I've written in this forum I have no memory of if I've prior disclosed this.

In December 1972, I was arrested and charged with "illegal possession of a narcotic", a felony charge.

I was 100% innocent and the arresting Vice Squad member had fabricated a 100% fictitious story of the events.

The case finally came to court 2 1/2 years later in May 1975.

Because of some other circumstances, though 100% innocent, I was going to accept the deal presented to me of pleading "NOLO" and then I think I was going to get a year's probation.

However, after the judge heard my truthful version, he said, "I'm putting this case in a state of limbo for a year. If you do nothing else during this time, this case will be destroyed, like it never happened."

I guess I was lucky to get a judge who actually believed the defendant rather than automatically believing the police's version.

I guess (doing way more "guessing" here than I normally do!) you could also say that justice, in my case, won out.

However, it was no plus to have this felony charge hanging over my head for those 2 1/2 years. This resulting in me, being the honest person I've always been, during that time truthfully answering on job applications that I had been arrested, including disclosing a felony charge. No other arrests to have to report.

To the post office's credit they hired me based upon that information. I guess that government back then (1973) did believe innocent until proven guilty.

Vinny
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by Xan » Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:26 pm

I really have major problems with the whole system of plea bargaining. How many innocent people have pleaded guilty in order to avoid having their lives completely ruined?
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by vnatale » Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:34 pm

Xan wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:26 pm
I really have major problems with the whole system of plea bargaining. How many innocent people have pleaded guilty in order to avoid having their lives completely ruined?
More of the story. Though I was 100% innocent, my friend was not innocent. He was actually guilty of the action they accused me of. And, he was on probation at the time.

At the time of my court appearance, my public defender told me the deal that had been arranged for me. I told her that it was my friend who was guilty and not me but that he had been on probation at the time. But not now. If the truth came out could his being on probation at the time be held against him. She said, "Yes". I then said, "In that case, I'm going to leave him out of it. I'll stand accused." That was why I decided to accept the deal.

Vinny
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Re: Grover Norquist now!

Post by vnatale » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:32 am

MangoMan wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:03 am
vnatale wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 9:34 pm
Xan wrote:
Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:26 pm
I really have major problems with the whole system of plea bargaining. How many innocent people have pleaded guilty in order to avoid having their lives completely ruined?
More of the story. Though I was 100% innocent, my friend was not innocent. He was actually guilty of the action they accused me of. And, he was on probation at the time.

At the time of my court appearance, my public defender told me the deal that had been arranged for me. I told her that it was my friend who was guilty and not me but that he had been on probation at the time. But not now. If the truth came out could his being on probation at the time be held against him. She said, "Yes". I then said, "In that case, I'm going to leave him out of it. I'll stand accused." That was why I decided to accept the deal.

Vinny
One thing I have learned in life is that the most valuable friends are the ones who always have your back. So on the one hand, you are clearly one of those friends and should be commended. But OTOH, I have also learned that the least valuable friends are the ones who mostly contribute toxicity to the relationship and should be extricated from my life, so you should be chastised for keeping that loser around in the first place.
We are still friends nearly 50 years after first meeting. I'd hardly call him a loser.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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