Grover Norquist now!

[Kriegsspiel]

If you consider yourself to be either anti-abortion or pro-life (whichever label you choose).....are you against abortion in all cases or do you have exceptions?

Vinny

I would think it depends on what is behind the opinion. If you're pro-life because you believe a fetus is a human being, then it logically follows that it's murder, and any justifications made for an abortion can/should also be made to justify killing adult humans, and vice-versa.

IIRC that's the argument I made in a college Rhetoric and Logic class. The teacher told me I was wrong

[Xan]

That actually was a part of the civil rights movement in the '60s. MLK was adamant that if it's okay to dehumanize anybody, then anybody can be dehumanized. His niece Alveda King carries on his work of championing the lives of the unborn.

For some reason whenever the popular press lionizes MLK, all this is swept under the rug.

[vnatale]

I'm against murder in all its various forms. I also do not equate killing (such as in a just war, or after sentencing by a jury of your peers) with murder. I think it is exceptionaly hypocritical to be for abortion and against the death penalty.

You did not state if you have any exceptions for abortion.

A "just war" is in the eye of the beholder.

"Sentencing by a jury of your peers" is far from perfect. Our justice system does not deliver justice.

Now that I'm correctly reading your last sentence I may have to agree with it.

Vinny

[Mountaineer]

I'm against murder in all its various forms. I also do not equate killing (such as in a just war, or after sentencing by a jury of your peers) with murder. I think it is exceptionaly hypocritical to be for abortion and against the death penalty.

1. You did not state if you have any exceptions for abortion.

2. A "just war" is in the eye of the beholder.

3. "Sentencing by a jury of your peers" is far from perfect. Our justice system does not deliver justice.

4. Now that I'm correctly reading your last sentence I may have to agree with it.

Vinny

1. An astute reader you are, unless you can not read between the lines.

2. Only for a post-modern worldviewer. I'm more of a pre-modern or modern type that believes in absolute truth.

3. Yep. But it is better than (almost?) all other systems. I've seen our system not deliver justice first hand. The best way to stay out of trouble with the system is to stay out of trouble.

4. Fantastic! Hope springs eternal.

[vnatale]

I'm against murder in all its various forms. I also do not equate killing (such as in a just war, or after sentencing by a jury of your peers) with murder. I think it is exceptionaly hypocritical to be for abortion and against the death penalty.

1. You did not state if you have any exceptions for abortion.

2. A "just war" is in the eye of the beholder.

3. "Sentencing by a jury of your peers" is far from perfect. Our justice system does not deliver justice.

4. Now that I'm correctly reading your last sentence I may have to agree with it.

Vinny

1. An astute reader you are, unless you can not read between the lines.

2. Only for a post-modern worldviewer. I'm more of a pre-modern or modern type that believes in absolute truth.

3. Yep. But it is better than (almost?) all other systems. I've seen our system not deliver justice first hand. The best way to stay out of trouble with the system is to stay out of trouble.

4. Fantastic! Hope springs eternal.

1. I cannot read between any lines. I'm all literal, practically no figurative.

2. I too believe in absolute truths. But who is the ultimate decider of what they are?

3. Probably better but far from perfect. You're admitting you've seen it not deliver justice first hand. I'll add my own personal story, which with all I've written in this forum I have no memory of if I've prior disclosed this.

In December 1972, I was arrested and charged with "illegal possession of a narcotic", a felony charge.

I was 100% innocent and the arresting Vice Squad member had fabricated a 100% fictitious story of the events.

The case finally came to court 2 1/2 years later in May 1975.

Because of some other circumstances, though 100% innocent, I was going to accept the deal presented to me of pleading "NOLO" and then I think I was going to get a year's probation.

However, after the judge heard my truthful version, he said, "I'm putting this case in a state of limbo for a year. If you do nothing else during this time, this case will be destroyed, like it never happened."

I guess I was lucky to get a judge who actually believed the defendant rather than automatically believing the police's version.

I guess (doing way more "guessing" here than I normally do!) you could also say that justice, in my case, won out.

However, it was no plus to have this felony charge hanging over my head for those 2 1/2 years. This resulting in me, being the honest person I've always been, during that time truthfully answering on job applications that I had been arrested, including disclosing a felony charge. No other arrests to have to report.

To the post office's credit they hired me based upon that information. I guess that government back then (1973) did believe innocent until proven guilty.

Vinny

[Xan]

I really have major problems with the whole system of plea bargaining. How many innocent people have pleaded guilty in order to avoid having their lives completely ruined?

[vnatale]

I really have major problems with the whole system of plea bargaining. How many innocent people have pleaded guilty in order to avoid having their lives completely ruined?

More of the story. Though I was 100% innocent, my friend was not innocent. He was actually guilty of the action they accused me of. And, he was on probation at the time.

At the time of my court appearance, my public defender told me the deal that had been arranged for me. I told her that it was my friend who was guilty and not me but that he had been on probation at the time. But not now. If the truth came out could his being on probation at the time be held against him. She said, "Yes". I then said, "In that case, I'm going to leave him out of it. I'll stand accused." That was why I decided to accept the deal.

Vinny

[vnatale]

I really have major problems with the whole system of plea bargaining. How many innocent people have pleaded guilty in order to avoid having their lives completely ruined?

More of the story. Though I was 100% innocent, my friend was not innocent. He was actually guilty of the action they accused me of. And, he was on probation at the time.

At the time of my court appearance, my public defender told me the deal that had been arranged for me. I told her that it was my friend who was guilty and not me but that he had been on probation at the time. But not now. If the truth came out could his being on probation at the time be held against him. She said, "Yes". I then said, "In that case, I'm going to leave him out of it. I'll stand accused." That was why I decided to accept the deal.

Vinny

One thing I have learned in life is that the most valuable friends are the ones who always have your back. So on the one hand, you are clearly one of those friends and should be commended. But OTOH, I have also learned that the least valuable friends are the ones who mostly contribute toxicity to the relationship and should be extricated from my life, so you should be chastised for keeping that loser around in the first place.

We are still friends nearly 50 years after first meeting. I'd hardly call him a loser.

Vinny