Ppp loan forgiveness

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doodle
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Ppp loan forgiveness

Post by doodle » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:02 pm

So is this where the billionaires bilk the American public again? Passify the public with a 1200 dollar check while we line our pockets with billions in loans we will never have to repay. This empire needs to collapse.
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Re: Ppp loan forgiveness

Post by Xan » Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:42 pm

doodle wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:02 pm
So is this where the billionaires bilk the American public again? Passify the public with a 1200 dollar check while we line our pockets with billions in loans we will never have to repay. This empire needs to collapse.
Billionaires? This was only for small businesses.

Two other things about the PPP scheme:

* Basically it's federal aid for employees which conscripts employers into doing all the paperwork.
* Unless they fix it, the amount forgiven is still taxable. That is clearly not what Congress intended but it is how the current tax law and the PPP interact. Pretty much everybody agrees it should be fixed but until then, business owners are on the hook.
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Re: Ppp loan forgiveness

Post by Tortoise » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:01 pm

If a government forces a business to close temporarily, it should pay the business as compensation, not loan it money to be repaid.

Of course, the government shouldn’t force the business to close temporarily in the first place.
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Re: Ppp loan forgiveness

Post by glennds » Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:02 pm

My issue with PPP is that there was no criteria for need. I personally know three business owners for whom it was a large windfall. They are in businesses that were not adversely affected by COVID, with no intention of laying off any employees, yet they all qualified for PPP loans, two of them in the seven figures. A friend who works in business banking at Bank of America told me the amount of money that flowed into his customers' accounts was staggering.

Even an attestation of need, or a certification that the business was adversely impacted by the pandemic would have been something. There was nothing.

Conversely, I know a few restaurant owners. One is a classic husband/wife team who poured their hearts into their business. They had a record month in January only to close in March, still not re-opened. They have not re-opened because they cannot make ends meet at diminished capacity. So they did not qualify for PPP because even with PPP funds, which are a function of W-2 wages paid, they could not keep the doors open.

From my limited perspective it is medium and large businesses that benefited from PPP, not the true small mom and pop businesses.
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Re: Ppp loan forgiveness

Post by Kriegsspiel » Tue Oct 13, 2020 6:54 am

Once again, Tortoise gets to the crux of the matter.
doodle wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 10:02 pm
So is this where the billionaires bilk the American public again? Passify the public with a 1200 dollar check while we line our pockets with billions in loans we will never have to repay.
I like the idea, but not the spirit of what you're getting at. This was my thinking in another thread;
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Wed Oct 16, 2019 6:29 pm
A recent study showed that on average billionaires are now paying a lower effective tax rate than the bottom tax rate for working class Americans. That is immoral. As a monarchist who is keenly aware of the history of revolutions and where they can lead, I would caution those who applaud this modern tax code that is of the wealthy, for the wealthy and by the wealthy.
Ok, but they also pay most of the federal taxes too. The people in the meritocracy thread were concerned about the top 5% having too much power:

Image

The top 5% pays almost 60% of the federal income taxes (link), and the top 10% pay about 70%. The top 10% own 84% of the stock in American corporations (link), so it's mostly them paying the corporate income tax too. I'm guessing the top 10% pay pretty much all of the estate taxes too. They pay payroll taxes too, but payroll taxes, theoretically, should go towards social security and medicaid. So they aren't really funding the federal government. So if you take out the payroll taxes, then the top 10% are contributing 70% of the federal government's revenue. That doesn't seem immoral to me.

Looking at it a different way, if taxes on the elites were increased more, and maybe we get them to pay for, say, 90% of the federal government... It seems to me that they'd become even more powerful and elite, and less accountable to others. It seems to me that saying that elites aren't paying their fair share of taxes obscures the fact that they fund most of our government. And if they fund most of our government, it seems to me that they're going to find ways to control it or use it to serve their needs. A government that does less needs less tax revenue, and could have a more balanced tax base.

Come at me bros!
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
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Re: Ppp loan forgiveness

Post by vnatale » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:39 am

glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:02 pm
My issue with PPP is that there was no criteria for need. I personally know three business owners for whom it was a large windfall. They are in businesses that were not adversely affected by COVID, with no intention of laying off any employees, yet they all qualified for PPP loans, two of them in the seven figures. A friend who works in business banking at Bank of America told me the amount of money that flowed into his customers' accounts was staggering.

Even an attestation of need, or a certification that the business was adversely impacted by the pandemic would have been something. There was nothing.

Conversely, I know a few restaurant owners. One is a classic husband/wife team who poured their hearts into their business. They had a record month in January only to close in March, still not re-opened. They have not re-opened because they cannot make ends meet at diminished capacity. So they did not qualify for PPP because even with PPP funds, which are a function of W-2 wages paid, they could not keep the doors open.

From my limited perspective it is medium and large businesses that benefited from PPP, not the true small mom and pop businesses.
I assisted with two applications for PPP. There was a requirement to attest that there was a need and that the organization had been affected.

Plus, there were some large businesses that had received the money who gave their money back.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Ppp loan forgiveness

Post by doodle » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:58 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:39 am
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:02 pm
My issue with PPP is that there was no criteria for need. I personally know three business owners for whom it was a large windfall. They are in businesses that were not adversely affected by COVID, with no intention of laying off any employees, yet they all qualified for PPP loans, two of them in the seven figures. A friend who works in business banking at Bank of America told me the amount of money that flowed into his customers' accounts was staggering.

Even an attestation of need, or a certification that the business was adversely impacted by the pandemic would have been something. There was nothing.

Conversely, I know a few restaurant owners. One is a classic husband/wife team who poured their hearts into their business. They had a record month in January only to close in March, still not re-opened. They have not re-opened because they cannot make ends meet at diminished capacity. So they did not qualify for PPP because even with PPP funds, which are a function of W-2 wages paid, they could not keep the doors open.

From my limited perspective it is medium and large businesses that benefited from PPP, not the true small mom and pop businesses.
I assisted with two applications for PPP. There was a requirement to attest that there was a need and that the organization had been affected.

Plus, there were some large businesses that had received the money who gave their money back.

Vinny
Billionaires is an exaggeration but I do have well off acquatainces that received 6 figures or more of 'loans' that were of very questionable necessity that now apparently they do not have to pay back. I guess I'm just sick and tired of this businessman vs worker disparity on behalf of government. For individuals the message is personal savings and responsibility, get another job, hustle, cut expenses...for businesses and business owners it's a never ending shower of welfare.
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Re: Ppp loan forgiveness

Post by Xan » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:06 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:39 am
I assisted with two applications for PPP. There was a requirement to attest that there was a need and that the organization had been affected.
The attestation was:
Current economic uncertainty makes this loan request necessary to support the ongoing operations of the Applicant.

I think pretty much every business, certainly at the time this was happening, could reasonably make that claim.
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Re: Ppp loan forgiveness

Post by glennds » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:10 am

vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:39 am
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:02 pm
My issue with PPP is that there was no criteria for need. I personally know three business owners for whom it was a large windfall. They are in businesses that were not adversely affected by COVID, with no intention of laying off any employees, yet they all qualified for PPP loans, two of them in the seven figures. A friend who works in business banking at Bank of America told me the amount of money that flowed into his customers' accounts was staggering.

Even an attestation of need, or a certification that the business was adversely impacted by the pandemic would have been something. There was nothing.

Conversely, I know a few restaurant owners. One is a classic husband/wife team who poured their hearts into their business. They had a record month in January only to close in March, still not re-opened. They have not re-opened because they cannot make ends meet at diminished capacity. So they did not qualify for PPP because even with PPP funds, which are a function of W-2 wages paid, they could not keep the doors open.

From my limited perspective it is medium and large businesses that benefited from PPP, not the true small mom and pop businesses.
I assisted with two applications for PPP. There was a requirement to attest that there was a need and that the organization had been affected.

Plus, there were some large businesses that had received the money who gave their money back.

Vinny
My acquaintance recipients did not tell me this, so I stand corrected.
But to my original point, should there be a threshold for need? What if the business saw a 5% decline in revenue versus a 90% decline in revenue? In the applications that you assisted with, was there a materiality threshold, or any way of calibrating the loan to the pandemic related damage incurred by the business?

I saw an interview with Michigan Fed President Neel Kashkari on 60 Minutes and his recommendation having come through the 2008 crisis was that the government err to the side of being too generous for the good of the overall economy. This would undoubtedly create some winners and unintended beneficiaries, but the alternative would be an economic crisis for everyone. I get his point, but it works best when there are winners and big winners, not winners and losers. PPP created winners and losers. The follow up relief is supposed to resolve the latter, let's hope it does. I think a restaurant relief component is on the table.
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Re: Ppp loan forgiveness

Post by vnatale » Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:35 am

glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:10 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:39 am
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:02 pm
My issue with PPP is that there was no criteria for need. I personally know three business owners for whom it was a large windfall. They are in businesses that were not adversely affected by COVID, with no intention of laying off any employees, yet they all qualified for PPP loans, two of them in the seven figures. A friend who works in business banking at Bank of America told me the amount of money that flowed into his customers' accounts was staggering.

Even an attestation of need, or a certification that the business was adversely impacted by the pandemic would have been something. There was nothing.

Conversely, I know a few restaurant owners. One is a classic husband/wife team who poured their hearts into their business. They had a record month in January only to close in March, still not re-opened. They have not re-opened because they cannot make ends meet at diminished capacity. So they did not qualify for PPP because even with PPP funds, which are a function of W-2 wages paid, they could not keep the doors open.

From my limited perspective it is medium and large businesses that benefited from PPP, not the true small mom and pop businesses.
I assisted with two applications for PPP. There was a requirement to attest that there was a need and that the organization had been affected.

Plus, there were some large businesses that had received the money who gave their money back.

Vinny
My acquaintance recipients did not tell me this, so I stand corrected.
But to my original point, should there be a threshold for need? What if the business saw a 5% decline in revenue versus a 90% decline in revenue? In the applications that you assisted with, was there a materiality threshold, or any way of calibrating the loan to the pandemic related damage incurred by the business?

I saw an interview with Michigan Fed President Neel Kashkari on 60 Minutes and his recommendation having come through the 2008 crisis was that the government err to the side of being too generous for the good of the overall economy. This would undoubtedly create some winners and unintended beneficiaries, but the alternative would be an economic crisis for everyone. I get his point, but it works best when there are winners and big winners, not winners and losers. PPP created winners and losers. The follow up relief is supposed to resolve the latter, let's hope it does. I think a restaurant relief component is on the table.
I believe that the answer is No as you present the question. At some point, I can put here the application questions that are relevant.

However, there was a large public outcry regarding certain large multi-unit businesses that did receive the loans and should have had the resources to survive. They were given a deadline to return their loans. And, many of those businesses returned large loans.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Ppp loan forgiveness

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:09 pm

It's helicopter money. They don't much care who gets it. It's all borrowed, so it's free anyway, right?
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Re: Ppp loan forgiveness

Post by vnatale » Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:00 pm

vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:35 am
glennds wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 9:10 am
vnatale wrote:
Tue Oct 13, 2020 8:39 am
glennds wrote:
Mon Oct 12, 2020 11:02 pm
My issue with PPP is that there was no criteria for need. I personally know three business owners for whom it was a large windfall. They are in businesses that were not adversely affected by COVID, with no intention of laying off any employees, yet they all qualified for PPP loans, two of them in the seven figures. A friend who works in business banking at Bank of America told me the amount of money that flowed into his customers' accounts was staggering.

Even an attestation of need, or a certification that the business was adversely impacted by the pandemic would have been something. There was nothing.

Conversely, I know a few restaurant owners. One is a classic husband/wife team who poured their hearts into their business. They had a record month in January only to close in March, still not re-opened. They have not re-opened because they cannot make ends meet at diminished capacity. So they did not qualify for PPP because even with PPP funds, which are a function of W-2 wages paid, they could not keep the doors open.

From my limited perspective it is medium and large businesses that benefited from PPP, not the true small mom and pop businesses.
I assisted with two applications for PPP. There was a requirement to attest that there was a need and that the organization had been affected.

Plus, there were some large businesses that had received the money who gave their money back.

Vinny
My acquaintance recipients did not tell me this, so I stand corrected.
But to my original point, should there be a threshold for need? What if the business saw a 5% decline in revenue versus a 90% decline in revenue? In the applications that you assisted with, was there a materiality threshold, or any way of calibrating the loan to the pandemic related damage incurred by the business?

I saw an interview with Michigan Fed President Neel Kashkari on 60 Minutes and his recommendation having come through the 2008 crisis was that the government err to the side of being too generous for the good of the overall economy. This would undoubtedly create some winners and unintended beneficiaries, but the alternative would be an economic crisis for everyone. I get his point, but it works best when there are winners and big winners, not winners and losers. PPP created winners and losers. The follow up relief is supposed to resolve the latter, let's hope it does. I think a restaurant relief component is on the table.
I believe that the answer is No as you present the question. At some point, I can put here the application questions that are relevant.

However, there was a large public outcry regarding certain large multi-unit businesses that did receive the loans and should have had the resources to survive. They were given a deadline to return their loans. And, many of those businesses returned large loans.

Vinny
Just remembered to put the page of the application here with all the Certifications.

Vinny
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Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Ppp loan forgiveness

Post by boglerdude » Thu Oct 15, 2020 4:26 am

The fed could just stop printing and the market would tank. The fed seems to like Trump so im skeptical about the "elites vs Trump" narrative.
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