Yet another election complication

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glennds
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Re: Yet another election complication

Post by glennds »

Libertarian666 wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:08 am

IIRC, the only case where the Supreme Court said that someone born here to non-citizen parents was a natural born citizen was one where the parents were permanent residents, not tourists or other temporary residents.
This might help:

In the case of United States vs Wong Kim Ark 169 U.S. 649 (1898) (a 6-2 decision), the Supreme Court wrote:

[T]he real object of the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution, in qualifying the words, "All persons born in the United States" by the addition "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof," would appear to have been to exclude, by the fewest and fittest words (besides children of members of the Indian tribes, standing in a peculiar relation to the National Government, unknown to the common law), the two classes of cases -- children born of alien enemies in hostile occupation and children of diplomatic representatives of a foreign State -- both of which, as has already been shown, by the law of England and by our own law from the time of the first settlement of the English colonies in America, had been recognized exceptions to the fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the country.

...

[T]he Fourteenth Amendment affirms the ancient and fundamental rule of citizenship by birth within the territory, in the allegiance and under the protection of the country, including all children here born of resident aliens, with the exceptions or qualifications (as old as the rule itself) of children of foreign sovereigns or their ministers, or born on foreign public ships, or of enemies within and during a hostile occupation of part of our territory, and with the single additional exception of children of members of the Indian tribes owing direct allegiance to their several tribes. The Amendment, in clear words and in manifest intent, includes the children born, within the territory of the United States, of all other persons, of whatever race or color, domiciled within the United States.

...

To hold that the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution excludes from citizenship the children, born in the United States, of citizens or subjects of other countries would be to deny citizenship to thousands of persons of English, Scotch, Irish, German, or other European parentage who have always been considered and treated as citizens of the United States.

If you are interested, a thorough reading of the case opinion might be worthwhile for you, you can find it here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/169/649


I have also learned that there have been unsuccessful attempts to legislate over the Wong Kim Ark decision. Recently Donald Trump talked about issuing an Executive Order to do so, and Lindsey Graham said he would introduce legislation in Congress, but neither have happened.

As I have said before, I could see legislative changes happening depending on the political climate, but I cannot see them happening retroactively in a way that would specifically block Harris from eligibility for office of President. Retroactively taking away someone's citizenship would be a complicated undertaking and kind of a stretch for a country that prides itself on being a beacon of democracy and rule of law.
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Cortopassi
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Re: Yet another election complication

Post by Cortopassi »

Seems a lot of gray area in that good old constitution....

res·i·dent
/ˈrez(ə)dənt/
1.
a person who lives somewhere permanently or on a long-term basis.
"it was a beautiful hamlet with just 100 residents"

Now...what is long term...!?
Libertarian666
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Re: Yet another election complication

Post by Libertarian666 »

Cortopassi wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:02 pm Seems a lot of gray area in that good old constitution....

res·i·dent
/ˈrez(ə)dənt/
1.
a person who lives somewhere permanently or on a long-term basis.
"it was a beautiful hamlet with just 100 residents"

Now...what is long term...!?
Well, I think we can all agree that a permanent resident of the US, e.g., a green card holder, would count as a resident.
I think it is also fairly obvious that someone who does not have the authorization to remain in the US (that green card again) would NOT count as a resident.
There are other intermediate cases, of course. That's one of the reasons that why we need courts: to decide cases that aren't spelled out in detail in the original written law, based on the text of the law in the meaning it had when it was written.
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Cortopassi
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Re: Yet another election complication

Post by Cortopassi »

In the future, when an egg can be fertilized and grown in a lab to create a child, vs. in a woman's body, and let's say the egg and sperm came from either unknown or outside the US parentage, is the baby a US citizen?

And what if the egg and sperm were stored in the US? Are they residents? For 30 days prior? 1 year prior? Permanent residents? :P

I'm glad I'm not a lawyer.
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Re: Yet another election complication

Post by vnatale »

Libertarian666 wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:07 pm
Cortopassi wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:02 pm Seems a lot of gray area in that good old constitution....

res·i·dent
/ˈrez(ə)dənt/
1.
a person who lives somewhere permanently or on a long-term basis.
"it was a beautiful hamlet with just 100 residents"

Now...what is long term...!?
Well, I think we can all agree that a permanent resident of the US, e.g., a green card holder, would count as a resident.
I think it is also fairly obvious that someone who does not have the authorization to remain in the US (that green card again) would NOT count as a resident.
There are other intermediate cases, of course. That's one of the reasons that why we need courts: to decide cases that aren't spelled out in detail in the original written law, based on the text of the law in the meaning it had when it was written.
However, as I wrote somewhere else....in many cases the laws are poorly written so who can really divine what their meaning was when they were written.

Last year I went to one of the few seminars I have ever gone to because Massachusetts was implementing a new sick and medical leave law and I just could not understand from what I found in writing how to implement the related employed and employer payments for it.

The seminar was excellent. It was led by a lawyer. And, he was liberal in his criticism of the law as written, at how the lawmakers were just remiss in addressing a ton of details that we as employers needed to have answers for.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Xan
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Re: Yet another election complication

Post by Xan »

vnatale wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:46 pmThe seminar was excellent. It was led by a lawyer. And, he was liberal in his criticism of the law as written, at how the lawmakers were just remiss in addressing a ton of details that we as employers needed to have answers for.

Vinny
I think there need to be far more programmers in Congress.
Libertarian666
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Re: Yet another election complication

Post by Libertarian666 »

vnatale wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:46 pm
Libertarian666 wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:07 pm
Cortopassi wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:02 pm Seems a lot of gray area in that good old constitution....

res·i·dent
/ˈrez(ə)dənt/
1.
a person who lives somewhere permanently or on a long-term basis.
"it was a beautiful hamlet with just 100 residents"

Now...what is long term...!?
Well, I think we can all agree that a permanent resident of the US, e.g., a green card holder, would count as a resident.
I think it is also fairly obvious that someone who does not have the authorization to remain in the US (that green card again) would NOT count as a resident.
There are other intermediate cases, of course. That's one of the reasons that why we need courts: to decide cases that aren't spelled out in detail in the original written law, based on the text of the law in the meaning it had when it was written.
However, as I wrote somewhere else....in many cases the laws are poorly written so who can really divine what their meaning was when they were written.

Last year I went to one of the few seminars I have ever gone to because Massachusetts was implementing a new sick and medical leave law and I just could not understand from what I found in writing how to implement the related employed and employer payments for it.

The seminar was excellent. It was led by a lawyer. And, he was liberal in his criticism of the law as written, at how the lawmakers were just remiss in addressing a ton of details that we as employers needed to have answers for.

Vinny
Let's see.
Most legislators are lawyers.
Many laws are poorly written.
The more poorly written the laws are, the more lawyers are needed to figure them out.
Is that just a coincidence?

Personally I think that it should be illegal for lawyers to be legislators.
Libertarian666
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Re: Yet another election complication

Post by Libertarian666 »

Xan wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 10:26 pm
vnatale wrote: Fri Oct 23, 2020 9:46 pmThe seminar was excellent. It was led by a lawyer. And, he was liberal in his criticism of the law as written, at how the lawmakers were just remiss in addressing a ton of details that we as employers needed to have answers for.

Vinny
I think there need to be far more programmers in Congress.
I'm not sure that would be an improvement. Many programmers write terrible code, so I'm not sure the laws they wrote would be any better.
What we need is citizen legislators, chosen at random like jurors, separately for each term.
That would greatly reduce the power of lobbyists to corrupt the legislature.
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