Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:38 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:26 pm
Kbg wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:21 pm
This is a fair comment, but let's be clear on something. I was challenged by at least two people on the board and so at that point and based on what I wrote I thought A) the pokes back at me were right/fair in a debate and B) it was now my responsibility to put up or shut up. So I did. If you object to something do a little bit more than demand others defend their statements and be ready to defend your own.
Wrong. When you accuse someone of being a liar, the onus is on you as the accuser to justify your assertion.

Moreover, it's considered bad forum etiquette to accuse someone of being a liar (a form of ad hominem attack) instead of the more civil approach of pointing out why that person's statement was false. That goes double for people like you who claim to be a "Sermon on the Mount kinda guy" who tries his best to follow Christ's teachings.

This was the third time in the past year that you've bitten my head off with an ad hominem attack without provocation. It seems to have become a habit for you.
Come on guys. Kiss and make up (forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us). You both are valuable contributors IMHO.

…M
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by SomeDude » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:28 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 3:26 pm
Kbg wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 2:21 pm
This is a fair comment, but let's be clear on something. I was challenged by at least two people on the board and so at that point and based on what I wrote I thought A) the pokes back at me were right/fair in a debate and B) it was now my responsibility to put up or shut up. So I did. If you object to something do a little bit more than demand others defend their statements and be ready to defend your own.
Wrong. When you accuse someone of being a liar, the onus is on you as the accuser to justify your assertion.

Moreover, it's considered bad forum etiquette to accuse someone of being a liar (a form of ad hominem attack) instead of the more civil approach of pointing out why that person's statement was false. That goes double for people like you who claim to be a "Sermon on the Mount kinda guy" who tries his best to follow Christ's teachings.

This was the third time in the past year that you've bitten my head off with an ad hominem attack without provocation. It seems to have become a habit for you.
The attacks are all part of a masterful strategic plan you just don't grasp Tortoise! 😆
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Kbg » Thu Jul 22, 2021 8:37 pm

I’ll be the first to admit my patience on this topic now days is about zero and the reason for that is where we are at in the knowledge journey on the disease. I do try to be a sermon on the mount kinda guy and I do fall short from time to time.

Tortoise, if we are bringing the Bible/New Testament into it that also means I’ve got 487 to go with you. I’ll do my best not to exceed that. (Joke)

In any event no personal ill will toward you intended. The liar part was there, no doubt about it. My focus when typing was not you as an individual but the lack of context. Lack of context or partial stories while on the face of things can be technically truthful, are sometimes in fact lies. That's the heart of BF's quote. Conservatives are painfully aware of this game as it plays out daily in many US news sources.

Now for a serious question, what moral responsibility do you have to post factually and avoid posting demonstrably obvious falsehoods vs. an opinion you happen to feel strongly about? COVID is serious stuff. I lost a first cousin, my mom several friends and two people in my small community have permanent lung damage as a result. All were old or health compromised, but so what. They died of Covid and wouldn't have died of Covid if it didn't exist. When lives are at stake, that's pretty much a key factor regarding moral or immoral actions.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Kbg » Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:45 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:40 pm
Okay guys, I think I get it now:

When Corto shares a table of Covid statistics reported by the L.A. County Department of Public Health but doesn't dig into their measurement methodology or potential sampling bias, that's a-okay.

But when I share a Covid statistic reported by the UK's Chief Scientific Adviser and don't dig into the underlying data, I'm a liar spreading half-truths and being "too lazy to do basic fact checking".

In other words, I just need to keep the double standard in mind when I post in these Covid threads. Got it. I'll try to remember that going forward. ;)
Challenge Tortoise...dig in and dispute the LA County stats. Or at the end of the day does it all boil down to your opinion on the issue? Honestly, I have zero hostility toward you, but I am calling you out to clearly state where you stand and A) admit, yep it's just my personal opinion or B) here's my stand based on the following evidence. For evidentiary disputes I'm happy to defer to WiseOne's call on credibility (though she's smart and probably wants nothing to do with our jousting LOL).

P.S. I was second in line for the Lego post kudos...a bit about me. I was in a career and several academic situations where fierce debate and down right passionate arguing ended up with heading to a venue for dinner and drinks after metaphorically ripping each other's faces off. You don't strike me as a bad person, someone with evil intent or a deliberately deceitful person. You clearly enjoy diving into controversy, throwing some elbows as well and have a great sense of humor. So seriously, peace brother...but I'm still calling you out intellectually and factually.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by boglerdude » Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:30 am

"Evidence"
We're post-truth. Eventually we'll be locking down because someone sneezed.

https://old.reddit.com/r/australia/comm ... emergency/

edit: https://twitter.com/ianmSC/status/1415404066457493506
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by WiseOne » Fri Jul 23, 2021 7:43 am

Xan wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 1:06 pm
WiseOne wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 10:53 am
Not quite Xan...there is indeed a precise definition of GOF research. What isn't clear is whether NIH funds were used in Wuhan for gain of function research.
Thanks for clearing that up, WiseOne. I got the idea from hearing Rand Paul say this on the radio:
I will be sending a letter to Department of Justice asking for a criminal referral because he has lied to Congress. We have scientists that were lined up by the dozens to say that the research he was funding was gain-of-function."
(also quoted here: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/rand-f ... estigation )

Hearing that it sounded like the debate was whether or not the research was gain-of-function. But you're saying it's really more of a question of which research he was funding and which he wasn't? If that's the case, it would be more of a question for the accountants than the scientists, wouldn't it?
The problem here is that it's all in how you word it. It is almost certain that NIH did not directly send money to the Wuhan lab specifically earmarked for GOF research. But, any money going to the lab, for whatever reason and by whatever indirect path, could potentially be considered as contributing to any research done by that lab during the funding period - which could include GOF research. I think that's Rand Paul's point.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by murphy_p_t » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:10 am

Just in case it was overlooked...

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/0 ... nding-use/

In the embedded presentation which fauci gave, his PowerPoint slide includes the following text: "NIH lifts funding pause on gain-of-function research"
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Xan » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:19 am

murphy_p_t wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:10 am
Just in case it was overlooked...

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/0 ... nding-use/

In the embedded presentation which fauci gave, his PowerPoint slide includes the following text: "NIH lifts funding pause on gain-of-function research"
Seems pretty much open-and-shut.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by flyingpylon » Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:16 pm

And statistically, this whole issue is over as a point of fact or debate except for long-term side effects. The data is crystal clear for anyone who cares to look at it.
What should people that are concerned about long-term side effects do?
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by WiseOne » Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:23 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:19 am
murphy_p_t wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:10 am
Just in case it was overlooked...

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/0 ... nding-use/

In the embedded presentation which fauci gave, his PowerPoint slide includes the following text: "NIH lifts funding pause on gain-of-function research"
Seems pretty much open-and-shut.
Nice link, thanks!

Did you see the part about the requirement for multidisciplinary, department-level review before any funding decision? It would be worth finding out if that was done prior to funding the grant to the foundation that included the subcontract to Wuhan. Note that this would mean that Fauci himself did not making the funding decision.

I think the larger point, though, is that if the US is going to funnel research money to foreign countries, especially potential enemy states or places with lax subpar facilities like China, they ought to have some sort of oversight mechanism to make sure the funds aren't used for, oh, let's say, developing biological weapons. Or in this case, developing a pandemic-potential pathogen and then screwing up the safety protocols.

Edit: It also would have been nice for Fauci to have added another requirement to that slide: highest level (4 I think) biosafety protocol required for pandemic-potential pathogens.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Cortopassi » Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:49 pm

Desert wrote:
Fri Jul 23, 2021 12:21 pm
I found this summary to be helpful:

https://reason.com/2021/07/23/is-anthon ... rand-paul/
From the article:
---------------
So who is lying? Both Paul and Fauci can cite experts who agree with their interpretations of what the NIH funded at the WIV. Consequently, both men can reasonably believe that they are each telling the truth while the other is a dishonest fraud.
----------
As usual, nothing is really black and white, but also neither are most people out and out purposely lying.

As for funneling money to foreign countries -- hah! I have lost at least 4 jobs to downsizing and outsourcing engineering and manufacturing to China and the far East. Why would the disease industry be any different? :-\
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Tortoise » Fri Jul 23, 2021 2:28 pm

Kbg wrote:
Thu Jul 22, 2021 11:45 pm
Challenge Tortoise...dig in and dispute the LA County stats. Or at the end of the day does it all boil down to your opinion on the issue? Honestly, I have zero hostility toward you, but I am calling you out to clearly state where you stand and A) admit, yep it's just my personal opinion or B) here's my stand based on the following evidence. For evidentiary disputes I'm happy to defer to WiseOne's call on credibility (though she's smart and probably wants nothing to do with our jousting LOL).
Thanks for the thoughtful recent posts and the olive branch, Kbg. I appreciate it. I'm getting a better sense of your personality now. I'll try to keep your background and personality in mind the next time one of your elbows smacks me in the face seemingly out of nowhere. :)

First, I'll point out that my position on the Covid vaccine has always been that people who are at high risk for Covid complications (e.g., elderly, obese, and/or immunocompromised people) should almost certainly take the vaccine. I've never disputed that, nor have I ever disputed that the Covid vaccine is effective in reducing Covid risk for those high-risk people. The elbows that I occasionally throw in this thread are usually to push back on media, institutional, or government efforts to goad almost everyone, regardless of personal risk factors, into taking the vaccine.

My posts here and here were asking why there is such a huge discrepancy between the LA and UK stats:
Tortoise wrote: How is it possible that in the UK, 40% of Covid hospitalizations are fully vaccinated people, yet supposedly in L.A. County only 1.3% of Covid hospitalizations are fully vaccinated people? How might we explain that massive discrepancy?
You and jswinner then both pointed out that as more people in a population become vaccinated and the absolute number of hospitalizations drops, a larger proportion of the hospitalizations (relative number) will be vaccinated people since the vaccinated pool is growing and the unvaccinated pool is shrinking. Absolute vs. relative. Understood, and I get it. That was a very good, counterintuitive point.

However, I still wasn't convinced that that effect fully explains the massive difference between the UK's 40% and LA County's 1.3% since both places have fairly high rates of full vaccination. As you said, the UK's is somewhere between 80-90%, and according to this site LA County's is about 62%. Not as high as the UK's, but still well over the US and CA averages of around 50%.

Because I wasn't fully convinced, I got a little suspicious about Covid testing protocols. So I dug a bit into the LA County stats on Wednesday and posted about it here. Specifically, I went to the LA County Department of Public Health website, looked up their Covid testing protocol, and noticed that they recommend screening tests for people who are not fully vaccinated and do not recommend screening tests for people who are fully vaccinated. (See my post for the quote and reference. To reduce screen clutter, I won't copy it again here.)

What about the UK? Well, in response to your challenge above, I went a bit further just now and went to the UK's Department of Health and Social Care website to look up their Covid testing protocol. And I found this interesting nugget:
Who should get a test

You should get a test for COVID-19 if you:
  • live in targeted locations within one of the areas listed on this page or are contacted by your local council
  • are in the targeted age group
You should get a test even if:
  • you have no symptoms of COVID-19
  • you’ve had a vaccination for COVID-19
  • you’ve tested positive for COVID-19 previously (but not within the last 90 days by a PCR test)

So to bring this all together: Per LA County's Department of Public Health website, they do not recommend Covid screening tests for people who are fully vaccinated, and per the UK's Department of Health and Social Care website, they do recommend Covid screening tests even for people who are fully vaccinated. It seems mathematically unavoidable that that important difference in testing protocol is likely resulting in LA County's stats having fairly large sampling bias.

If you disagree that my suspicion has merit based on the evidence I just presented, feel free to ask WiseOne to adjudicate as you suggested.

Again, let's be clear that I'm not claiming the Covid vaccine is ineffective or that high-risk people should not take it. Quite the contrary. I'm just pushing back on what I suspect may be biased data. The Covid vaccine issue is already socially divisive enough; throwing biased data into the mix just makes it worse.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Xan » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:03 pm

An update out of Israel: study showing that Pfizer is only 39% effective against Delta.
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/07/23/delta-v ... lness.html

It's still highly effective against hospitalization and death, which is certainly good for people at risk of those things. But apparently not very effective at preventing symptomatic illness. Although this contradicts a similar UK study that found 88% efficacy. I can't dig into the two studies right now unfortunately.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by WiseOne » Fri Jul 23, 2021 3:35 pm

Tortoise and Kbg, looks like you're coming together here nicely. But, happy to adjudicate if you want. Tortoise's last post was his case - Kbg you present yours?
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Kbg » Fri Jul 23, 2021 6:28 pm

WiseOne,

I did previously. The sample sizes are huge now and there are multiple websites scrapping data from govt DBs. My response for the UK data is above…sorry not going to do the world nor LA. :-)

And Tortoise, A+ post.

Thank you

Getting to personal bias and being products of our experience I will say it’s a little hard for me to understand the pervasiveness of govt conspiracy theories. At the end of the day 99% of the people in it are extremely ordinary lower to mid mid class people. Shocker, self selection is a huge factor in what type of people join which federal government agencies. So you do get semi-uniform world views accordingly. I don’t find anything shocking, devious or conspiratorial about public health officials wanting to do what is best for public health. That’s their job! I personally WANT them to be that way. The top 1% of government are the professional politicians and it is THEIR job to harmonize say economics with public health.

To use an example there’s much in the news as of late about DoD being more about PC and touchy-feely stuff versus defending the country and killing bad guys. This comes from the right but it’s the exact same thing. Consistency says we want government agencies to be the best at what they do, the politicians harmonize and the public keeps them or tosses the bums every election cycle if they don’t like the results.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Kbg » Fri Jul 23, 2021 9:48 pm

I used the word harmonize with regard to the top 1% of government who actually make the policy decisions. It's their job to decide and resolve when issues get messy/conflict. Obviously the economy takes a hit when everything is shut down and at least to me it was obvious lockdowns did do their job (but not nearly as well as the vaccine). Also obvious, the two conflict. Whether Trump or Biden, they and their senior advisors/cabinet heads/agency heads decide(d) where the needle was/is going to be dialed to.

I agree on the Marines. Hands down they got the best PR of any service by far.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by WiseOne » Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:38 am

Sorry KBG, I don't have time to comb through all those posts and piece together your argument. Can I have the Cliff notes summary?
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by pp4me » Sat Jul 24, 2021 4:49 pm

Florida tops the nation in new COVID cases. As they spike in its rural Big Bend, many still fear the vaccine more.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/flori ... d=msedgntp

I took the vaccine based on my own assessment of risks but I applaud my fellow Floridians who have decided not to take it because they don't trust anything the f***ing" government says.

And that's a typical headline assuming facts not in evidence. They have no idea about the psychology of why Floridians aren't taking the vaccine but have no problem asserting what they don't know to be true.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Hal » Sat Jul 24, 2021 5:00 pm

Aussie GoldSmithPP - 25% PMGOLD, 75% VDCO
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by murphy_p_t » Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:20 pm

CDC grossly underreporting key adverse events



https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/0 ... formation/
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by vnatale » Sat Jul 24, 2021 10:28 pm

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (21.81 KiB) Viewed 3375 times
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by murphy_p_t » Sun Jul 25, 2021 5:50 pm

The former papal nuncio to the United states, Archbishop Vigano addresses a moral/ethical aspect of the question, using quite stark and provocative rhetoric.


https://www.lifesitenews.com/blogs/arch ... d-to-satan
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by vnatale » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:37 pm

Capture.JPG
Capture.JPG (100.72 KiB) Viewed 3229 times
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by vnatale » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:41 pm

COVID-19

Poll: Most unvaccinated Americans don’t want shots

By TAMMY WEBBER and EMILY SWANSON

Associated Press


"Dr. Howard Koh, a professor at the Harvard Chan School of Public Health, said vaccine hesitancy is not new, but the misinformation surrounding COVID-19 and the fast-spreading variant make it imperative to reach people one-on-one to understand their concerns and provide accurate information.

He called the new surge in infections and deaths “just heartbreaking.”

“What I learned from my patients is that when a loved one dies, that’s a tragedy,” said Koh, who was a senior public health official in the Obama administration. “But when a loved one dies and you know it could have been prevented, that tragedy haunts you forever.”"
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by vnatale » Mon Jul 26, 2021 9:45 am

From a baseball related newsletter of last week which I am just getting to now...

Vinny


Yesterday the Canadian government also announced that, outside of such exemptions, Americans who are vaccinated will be able to travel to Canada beginning in August. Unvaccinated visiting ballplayers, however, are exempt from that because they’re a part of that national interest stuff, but they will have to deal with a lot of testing and quarantining action. From Marco Mendicino, the Canadian immigration minister:

“The plan contains significant measures to ensure the safety of the players, personnel and the public. This begins with pre- and post-arrival testing of everyone, and additional testing four times a week for unvaccinated individuals. It also includes significant limitations on unvaccinated individuals, who will have to undergo a modified quarantine, not be permitted to go anywhere but the hotel and stadium and have no interaction with the general public.”

The Jays’ home stands July 30-on are against the Royals, Cleveland, Red Sox, Tigers, White Sox, Orioles, A’s, Rays, Twins, and Yankees. Have fun, members of those teams who have made “personal choices.”
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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