Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

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murphy_p_t
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by murphy_p_t » Thu May 13, 2021 10:56 pm

"So my message is… Get vaccinated, because it will save you and protect you from a lot more than what you think.”

A statement of religious indoctrination and true belief...
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by SomeDude » Fri May 14, 2021 7:11 am

murphy_p_t wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 10:56 pm
"So my message is… Get vaccinated, because it will save you and protect you from a lot more than what you think.”

A statement of religious indoctrination and true belief...
Did you see Biden's earpieces statement yesterday? I believe it was "get vaxxed or wear a mask forever".

So much for the bully being satisfied with his power trip and leaving us alone.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by SomeDude » Fri May 14, 2021 7:28 am

Xan wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 11:21 am
Murphy, SomeDude, I largely agree with you guys on just about everything, I think. But you are so extreme on this one issue that it drives me want to take up the opposite side.

What about World War II? There was the first peacetime draft registration, mobilization of the economy meant just about complete federal control of the economy, rationing controlled what people could buy and eat. It was 100x worse than Covid in many ways.

Was it Stockholm syndrome for people to join the military and fight? Or was it everybody doing what they could best do to deal with an emergency?

There's plenty of room to debate what the correct Covid response was, but Corto has quite a reasonable perspective: there was a massive threat, the details of which were unknown, particularly in March when this all started. The threat having largely passed, or close to it, things are getting back to normal.

Haranguing him for not being as violently angry and, with regards to the vaccine, as willfully blind as closed-minded as you are is not going to convince people to see your point of view. Quite the opposite.
The sophistry is strong here Xan, as are the insults. "Violently angry"? "Willfully blind"? "Close-minded"?

What are you talking about?

This type of language of language makes me think you're not serious about discussing the topic.

Do you know what stockholm syndrome is? Its sympathizing with and rationalizing your captors behavior. Cort seemed to recognize that he personally didn't like the government usurpation of his rights but he does support it and hey, it looks like they might give you some of them back so what's the big deal right?

If you or anyone else think you're getting your rights back you're sadly mistaken. The government we have and who's actions in the last year so many of you support prove you only have privileges. If you think they won't be taking them away whenever it suits them.....then you have zero historical or logical perspective.

The threat isn't the flu. Its that all your God given rights will now be violated at will. And many posters here support that, some clearly suffering stockholm syndrome.

Regarding WW2, yes forced conscription and theft of property is a violation of human rights, regardless of what group enforces it. Only voluntary action can have virtue. If you want to get injected or wear a mask for the rest of your life so be it, but don't demand that others do it.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by SomeDude » Fri May 14, 2021 7:32 am

stuper1 wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 2:22 pm
Xan wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 11:21 am
Murphy, SomeDude, I largely agree with you guys on just about everything, I think. But you are so extreme on this one issue that it drives me want to take up the opposite side.

What about World War II? There was the first peacetime draft registration, mobilization of the economy meant just about complete federal control of the economy, rationing controlled what people could buy and eat. It was 100x worse than Covid in many ways.

Was it Stockholm syndrome for people to join the military and fight? Or was it everybody doing what they could best do to deal with an emergency?

There's plenty of room to debate what the correct Covid response was, but Corto has quite a reasonable perspective: there was a massive threat, the details of which were unknown, particularly in March when this all started. The threat having largely passed, or close to it, things are getting back to normal.

Haranguing him for not being as violently angry and, with regards to the vaccine, as willfully blind as closed-minded as you are is not going to convince people to see your point of view. Quite the opposite.
Any analogy based on World War II is problematic. World War II would never have happened if America had just stayed out of World War I like it should have. There would have been no Hitler to fight. I could completely see an American in 1941 considering it Stockholm Syndrome to fight for an America that made the huge mistake of entering World War I.
And many did. I doubt that 10% of the population supported war until Pearl Harbor or Germany declared war. In Germany's defense though the US government was already practically in a hot war with them in the Atlantic.

This topic is going way beyond the scope of this thread now....
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by SomeDude » Fri May 14, 2021 7:34 am

That's only because everyone on Earth hasn't been injected yet PG.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by WiseOne » Fri May 14, 2021 9:01 am

This "fact" raises way more questions than it answers.

First: were any of these 7 symptomatic? Because then this is a diagnosis based on a test result. Prior to COVID there has never been any such thing in medicine, and medical schools everywhere teach that this is a bad way to practice. When the heck did that change??

Second: when did the test occur in relation to the most recent vaccine dose? Since an mRNA injection forces you to make spike proteins which then circulate for an unknown period of time that could be weeks or months, the super-sensitive PCR test is frankly not valid for an extended period of time after injection...who knows how long.

Finally...the implication is that the vaccine was ineffective and those 7 got infected naturally and then became sick. So let's consider that scenario. Remember the vaccines have to be very carefully stored in a specialized (-80 C) freezer, and allowed to sit out at room temperature for a max of (I think) 2 hours. That's a pretty high bar. Were the vaccines received by these guys handled correctly? I bet incorrect handling is very common...I'd be amazed if even 10% of vaccine administrators do it right every time.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Xan » Fri May 14, 2021 9:04 am

SomeDude wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:28 am
If you want to get injected or wear a mask for the rest of your life so be it, but don't demand that others do it.
Nowhere did I say you should be forced to do it. I just think you're being very stupid if you don't. Especially since the anti-vaxxers (for purposes of SARS-CoV2) here have no coherent argument against it. I've lost count how many times I've asked what the vaccine IS trying to do, because you don't believe it's trying to prevent Coronavirus. Still waiting.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Xan » Fri May 14, 2021 9:23 am

WiseOne wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:01 am
This "fact" raises way more questions than it answers.

First: were any of these 7 symptomatic? Because then this is a diagnosis based on a test result. Prior to COVID there has never been any such thing in medicine, and medical schools everywhere teach that this is a bad way to practice. When the heck did that change??

Second: when did the test occur in relation to the most recent vaccine dose? Since an mRNA injection forces you to make spike proteins which then circulate for an unknown period of time that could be weeks or months, the super-sensitive PCR test is frankly not valid for an extended period of time after injection...who knows how long.

Finally...the implication is that the vaccine was ineffective and those 7 got infected naturally and then became sick. So let's consider that scenario. Remember the vaccines have to be very carefully stored in a specialized (-80 C) freezer, and allowed to sit out at room temperature for a max of (I think) 2 hours. That's a pretty high bar. Were the vaccines received by these guys handled correctly? I bet incorrect handling is very common...I'd be amazed if even 10% of vaccine administrators do it right every time.
From the article Vinny posted earlier, all of them were asymptomatic. It sounds to me like the result of the vaccine actually working: either the PCR test is detecting the vaccine itself, or they technically have some tiny amount of the virus in their nose that isn't causing any trouble.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by WiseOne » Fri May 14, 2021 10:07 am

Xan wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:04 am
SomeDude wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:28 am
If you want to get injected or wear a mask for the rest of your life so be it, but don't demand that others do it.
Nowhere did I say you should be forced to do it. I just think you're being very stupid if you don't. Especially since the anti-vaxxers (for purposes of SARS-CoV2) here have no coherent argument against it.
Xan, now it's you who are being very disingenuous. I think there is a very coherent argument:

1) The COVID vaccines are the first use of the mRNA technique in humans. There is nothing known about potential long term side effects. For instance, will there be a large unexplained uptick in autoimmune disease or cancers from this? You can't argue either way because there is NO DATA.

2) Serious short term side effects appear to occur at a much higher rate than traditional vaccines. This information is largely being dismissed out of hand or even actively suppressed. For example, the Astra Zeneca vaccine was associated with two cases of transverse myelitis early on, reported on the news and in the medical literature. These mysteriously became first one case, then zero cases in subsequent reports and publications. No explanation provided. During clinical trials it is NEVER ok to dismiss anything; you have to report them no matter what, which is why there's such a long list of side effects in the package inserts for every drug. It's everything that was reported during the trials, regardless of whether the manufacturer thought they were related or not. They are only allowed to compare to the same reports in the placebo group. Somehow these rules were thrown out the window for the COVID vaccines, and that's very worrisome.

3) For people at very low risk of serious disease (e.g. no health risk factors and age < 65), there is a legitimate question as regards whether potential serious adverse effects of the vaccine are greater than the risk of serious effects from natural COVID infection.

4) The vaccine is approved for experimental use only, because the FDA recognizes that it hasn't been fully tested. No one should be coerced into accepting an experimental treatment. It's illegal and unethical, based on a large amount of experience in the research ethics field. This also has been thrown aside during COVID.

So basically it is an individual choice, and neither you nor anyone else has the right to give an opinion on whether an individual (other than yourself) should accept the vaccine or not.

If you're now going to call me an "anti-vaxxer" feel free. Except you can go back and read my posts from years back on the measles vaccine, which I advocated for rather strenuously. Think about the differences between MMR and COVID vaccines before you answer this.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by vnatale » Fri May 14, 2021 10:36 am

WiseOne wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:01 am



This "fact" raises way more questions than it answers.

First: were any of these 7 symptomatic? Because then this is a diagnosis based on a test result. Prior to COVID there has never been any such thing in medicine, and medical schools everywhere teach that this is a bad way to practice. When the heck did that change??

Second: when did the test occur in relation to the most recent vaccine dose? Since an mRNA injection forces you to make spike proteins which then circulate for an unknown period of time that could be weeks or months, the super-sensitive PCR test is frankly not valid for an extended period of time after injection...who knows how long.

Finally...the implication is that the vaccine was ineffective and those 7 got infected naturally and then became sick. So let's consider that scenario. Remember the vaccines have to be very carefully stored in a specialized (-80 C) freezer, and allowed to sit out at room temperature for a max of (I think) 2 hours. That's a pretty high bar. Were the vaccines received by these guys handled correctly? I bet incorrect handling is very common...I'd be amazed if even 10% of vaccine administrators do it right every time.


It is now 8...and only one of them was symptomatic.

They'd all been fairly recently vaccinated -- within last month, I believe.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Xan » Fri May 14, 2021 10:41 am

WiseOne wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:07 am
Xan wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 9:04 am
SomeDude wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 7:28 am
If you want to get injected or wear a mask for the rest of your life so be it, but don't demand that others do it.
Nowhere did I say you should be forced to do it. I just think you're being very stupid if you don't. Especially since the anti-vaxxers (for purposes of SARS-CoV2) here have no coherent argument against it.
Xan, now it's you who are being very disingenuous. I think there is a very coherent argument:

1) The COVID vaccines are the first use of the mRNA technique in humans. There is nothing known about potential long term side effects. For instance, will there be a large unexplained uptick in autoimmune disease or cancers from this? You can't argue either way because there is NO DATA.

2) Serious short term side effects appear to occur at a much higher rate than traditional vaccines. This information is largely being dismissed out of hand or even actively suppressed. For example, the Astra Zeneca vaccine was associated with two cases of transverse myelitis early on, reported on the news and in the medical literature. These mysteriously became first one case, then zero cases in subsequent reports and publications. No explanation provided. During clinical trials it is NEVER ok to dismiss anything; you have to report them no matter what, which is why there's such a long list of side effects in the package inserts for every drug. It's everything that was reported during the trials, regardless of whether the manufacturer thought they were related or not. They are only allowed to compare to the same reports in the placebo group. Somehow these rules were thrown out the window for the COVID vaccines, and that's very worrisome.

3) For people at very low risk of serious disease (e.g. no health risk factors and age < 65), there is a legitimate question as regards whether potential serious adverse effects of the vaccine are greater than the risk of serious effects from natural COVID infection.

4) The vaccine is approved for experimental use only, because the FDA recognizes that it hasn't been fully tested. No one should be coerced into accepting an experimental treatment. It's illegal and unethical, based on a large amount of experience in the research ethics field. This also has been thrown aside during COVID.

So basically it is an individual choice, and neither you nor anyone else has the right to give an opinion on whether an individual (other than yourself) should accept the vaccine or not.

If you're now going to call me an "anti-vaxxer" feel free. Except you can go back and read my posts from years back on the measles vaccine, which I advocated for rather strenuously. Think about the differences between MMR and COVID vaccines before you answer this.
Hi WiseOne,

I'm addressing the "radical" antivaxxers like Murphy and SomeDude, and I'm not arguing for coercion. And on the coherent argument front: yes, you have a coherent argument, but they do not. They're not making the argument you're making: they're saying that somebody is intentionally injecting bad juju into people, and then refuse to describe what that bad juju is, why somebody would be doing it, or how we'll know whether it worked or not.

I don't think they actually believe it themselves, but they refuse to directly say either way. They're not willing, as you are, to say that they just don't want to take the unknown risk.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by SomeDude » Fri May 14, 2021 7:36 pm

SomeDude wrote:
Mon May 10, 2021 3:45 pm
You don't know what the downsides are Xan. Maybe someone does, but not the peasants. It's an experiment.

I don't know if there's something nefarious in the injections. I don't know what they will do to people in the long run, if anything.
From a few days ago.

If i ever wrote that i knew what was in the vaccines then i was mistaken or wrote very unclear. If you can find a recent post where i said that, please quote it so i can address it. I don't know how to address your questions when they attribute arguments to me I'm not making (strawmen).

I will say i do not trust what is in the vaccines or their effects, long term or short, and wish the best of luck to those that do trust them.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by SomeDude » Fri May 14, 2021 7:45 pm

Xan wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:41 am
I'm addressing the "radical" antivaxxers like Murphy and SomeDude,
First i was what, "violently angry" or something, now I'm "radical"?

Neither are true
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by pp4me » Fri May 14, 2021 8:17 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 10:07 am
1) The COVID vaccines are the first use of the mRNA technique in humans. There is nothing known about potential long term side effects. For instance, will there be a large unexplained uptick in autoimmune disease or cancers from this? You can't argue either way because there is NO DATA.
Brett Weinstein and his guests have been talking about this on his Podcasts. He's an evolutionary biologist and far from a Trump-loving alt-right conspiracy theorist but when people call into the show asking if they should get the shot if they are pregnant or if their kids should get it his honest answer is that he doesn't know what to tell them.

The autoimmune question is of special concern to me as I have a fairly mild case of psoriasis along with seasonal allergies, both of which I believe are autoimmune in nature, if I'm not mistaken. Having gotten the Pfizer about six weeks ago I've seen no difference in my psoriasis but as I said before in another post both my wife and I seem to be having an especially unpleasant allergy season. The other day I went to bed with a very stuffy head and when I woke up I had a severe case of vertigo to go along with it. I had an eye exam scheduled for about an hour later so maybe god was just having fun with me to see how I would react when my pupils were dilated, in which case I hope we both had a good laugh as I stumbled towards my car.

Until there is data there will be no way to correlate these things with the shots and probably won't be for a long time which I think is both Brett's and WiseOne's point. And even if there is both correlation and established causation there still has to be a cost/benefit analysis.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by flyingpylon » Sat May 15, 2021 5:54 am

pp4me wrote:
Fri May 14, 2021 8:17 pm
Brett Weinstein and his guests have been talking about this on his Podcasts. He's an evolutionary biologist and far from a Trump-loving alt-right conspiracy theorist but when people call into the show asking if they should get the shot if they are pregnant or if their kids should get it his honest answer is that he doesn't know what to tell them.

The autoimmune question is of special concern to me as I have a fairly mild case of psoriasis along with seasonal allergies, both of which I believe are autoimmune in nature, if I'm not mistaken. Having gotten the Pfizer about six weeks ago I've seen no difference in my psoriasis but as I said before in another post both my wife and I seem to be having an especially unpleasant allergy season. The other day I went to bed with a very stuffy head and when I woke up I had a severe case of vertigo to go along with it. I had an eye exam scheduled for about an hour later so maybe god was just having fun with me to see how I would react when my pupils were dilated, in which case I hope we both had a good laugh as I stumbled towards my car.

Until there is data there will be no way to correlate these things with the shots and probably won't be for a long time which I think is both Brett's and WiseOne's point. And even if there is both correlation and established causation there still has to be a cost/benefit analysis.
I have really been enjoying Bret Weinstein’s podcast lately. Highly recommended. It’s called the DarkHorse Podcast for anyone that wants to check it out. They also have a channel where they post clips on specific topics taken from the full version of the show which can get pretty long.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by vnatale » Sat May 15, 2021 9:03 pm

https://www.politico.com/newsletters/po ... id=2670445


Why the Yankees should bench Covid tests

With help from Dan Goldberg and Tyler Weyant

EIGHT MEN OUT � The New York Yankees confirmed eight cases of Covid this week, with shortstop Gleyber Torres being the first player sidelined by the positive result.

All eight people who tested positive were vaccinated with Johnson & Johnson’s single-shot vaccine. Only one player showed symptoms, while the rest were asymptomatic.

Peter Hotez, dean of the National School of Tropical Medicine at the Baylor College of Medicine, talked with Nightly about why this may have happened and what it means for the future of Covid testing. This conversation has been edited.

Eight breakthrough infections seems like a lot for one baseball team. Why would something like this happen?

There’s a possibility that there were false positives, so there was some problem with the testing. That would be an obvious answer. I think the other, though, and this gets to a more profound question about Covid testing in sports, where we may see a change in guidelines.

I’m maybe getting over my skis a bit, but I think what that may mean is in a short while, we may see that individuals who are fully vaccinated, they may just stop routine testing in Major League Baseball and other sports. Because it doesn’t mean anything. Even if they’re PCR positive, they’re not shedding enough virus to cause transmission.

One of the things we’ve learned now about these vaccines is that the performance features are really good. So not only is it halting symptomatic illness, 95 percent, but it’s halting asymptomatic transmission. And now, there’s some new data coming out of Israel that was just published this month, showing that individuals who are vaccinated have this really deep, big decrease in virus shedding. Just because they’re PCR positive, and they have viruses, it’s not enough virus to cause transmission.

What I hope is the CDC will issue some new guidelines, sooner rather than later, about halting routine testing in vaccinated individuals.

So you’re not worried about this?

No. But I’ll tell you what we do need to know, which is that I don’t know that we’re collecting enough information about the breakthrough cases to understand them better. Is it because of variants? Is it because they’re immunocompromised? Especially for the serious infections. I don’t even know how much surveillance testing the CDC is doing right now in breakthrough cases. But I think that’s going to be really important to understand this.

Do you agree with the latest mask guidance?

I do. I thought it would come a little later, as we were getting better at fully vaccinating the American people. We still have this big problem in the southern states, and in Wyoming and Idaho and our red states, where vaccination rates are still really low.

So what I'm worried about is, by the summer, we could be two Covid nations. One in which the blue or bluish states will be fully vaccinated, transmission will really slow, but there will still be a lot of vulnerability in the deep red states, and especially in the South. So I worry about another southern surge, like we saw last year. I worry about a fifth peak. It may not be as bad because you do have some people vaccinated and some people with previous infections, but that’s something I’ll watch very closely.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by vnatale » Sat May 15, 2021 9:15 pm

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/05/1 ... ing-487726

A shot at a million: Ohio offers vaccinated a chance to win big bucks, college scholarships


Gov. Mike DeWine said the lotteries would be paid from existing federal coronavirus relief funds.



DeWine is a conservative Republican,
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by pp4me » Sun May 16, 2021 10:48 am

This article on Revolver agrees with murphy_t.....

https://nationalfile.com/report-pfizer- ... -diseases/

Quotes:
The report itself ends with this warning: “The vaccine could be a bioweapon and even more dangerous than the original infection.”
Prion-based diseases are, according to the CDC, a form of neurodegenerative diseases, meaning that the Pfizer vaccine is potentially likely to cause long term damage and negative health effects with regards to the brain.
What does it mean to say that something is "potentially likely" to cause something?

It means the "Report" is "fake news".
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by murphy_p_t » Mon May 17, 2021 6:48 am

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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by Mountaineer » Mon May 17, 2021 7:56 am

pp4me wrote:
Sun May 16, 2021 10:48 am
This article on Revolver agrees with murphy_t.....

https://nationalfile.com/report-pfizer- ... -diseases/

Quotes:
The report itself ends with this warning: “The vaccine could be a bioweapon and even more dangerous than the original infection.”
Prion-based diseases are, according to the CDC, a form of neurodegenerative diseases, meaning that the Pfizer vaccine is potentially likely to cause long term damage and negative health effects with regards to the brain.
What does it mean to say that something is "potentially likely" to cause something?

It means the "Report" is "fake news".
Exactly! Words like "could be", "potentially", "might happen" and the like are, in the terminology of some, - major trigger warnings for the unwoke. ;D ;D ;D
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by murphy_p_t » Mon May 17, 2021 4:12 pm

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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by SomeDude » Mon May 17, 2021 7:36 pm

murphy_p_t wrote:
Mon May 17, 2021 4:12 pm
6 percent ..... Hoax

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/0 ... ed-august/
Imagine if hospitals tested every patient for the flu strain de jour every year and anyone who tested positive and died was recorded as a flu death?

You don't have to imagine, that's what's been happening.

This is why no one has been able to pass the covid math challenge and explain where the so called "excess deaths" come from. Covid is allegedly fatal in what......1% to 1.5% of cases? That's barely more than the normal gen pop and way way way less than the 65 and older crowd where all the covid cases are.

Imagine if everyone only people over 100 got covid and CNN told you it had 40% fatality likelihood.
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by vnatale » Mon May 17, 2021 9:41 pm

https://nypost.com/2021/05/16/insisting ... -gone-mad/


Insisting on masks despite the science is just partisan posturing gone mad

By Post Editorial BoardMay 16, 2021 | 6:00pm | Updated
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by vnatale » Mon May 17, 2021 9:43 pm

Opinion by Zach Binney
and
Angela L. Rasmussen

May 17, 2021 at 4:08 p.m. EDT
Add to list
Zach Binney is a sports epidemiologist and assistant professor at Oxford College of Emory University. Angela L. Rasmussen is a research scientist at the University of Saskatchewan’s Vaccine and Infectious Disease Organization.

Nine fully vaccinated members of the New York Yankees — including one player and eight other staff — tested positive for the virus that causes covid-19 last week. To many, this may suggest the vaccines, which are extremely effective, don’t work as well as advertised. In fact, the Yankees outbreak is a case study showing how well the vaccines are working.

Let’s first note that data from tens of thousands of people enrolled in clinical trials — and hundreds of millions of other partially or fully vaccinated people — have shown that the vaccines administered in the United States are safe and effective. All the cases on the Yankees came from its traveling party — the group of players and other personnel who go to road games, about 50 to 60 people. That’s not enough to overrule the existing data.

But even if we focus just on those 50 to 60 people, does this outbreak cast doubt on vaccines? No. Of the nine cases, at least seven showed no symptoms. The only one who has so far was the first case to appear, third-base coach Phil Nevin. It is possible we will find out the vaccine “failed” only once — in Nevin — allowing him to build up a high enough viral load to spread it to eight others, all of whose vaccinated bodies likely fought it off quickly before they could develop symptoms or transmit it.
That is the vaccines working as designed. While they don’t eliminate the possibility of becoming infected, they virtually eliminate the risk of severe disease and death by preparing your immune system to fight the virus so it can respond more quickly and strongly. Cases that would have been hospitalizations become colds, and symptomatic cases become asymptomatic. Most infections are avoided entirely. The vaccine works like a strong head wind from the outfield, turning homers into doubles and doubles into harmless fly outs. These effects may be the result of a more powerful immune response in vaccinated individuals, which is also thought to reduce viral loads and thus further spread of the virus.

Should we keep wearing masks? Submit your questions for Dr. Leana S. Wen’s May 18 live chat.

What about the Yankees’ rate of spread? Is nine infections out of 50 to 60 people high? To fully answer that question, we would need to know how many would have become infected without the vaccine, which would require a detailed epidemiological investigation of contact patterns within the team.

But we can look at similar outbreaks to assess the risk in unvaccinated teams. Last July, 18 players and two coaches on the Miami Marlins tested positive. Shortly after, the St. Louis Cardinals saw its own outbreak among 18 people (10 players and eight staff). These would have represented at least 30 to 40 percent of a typical traveling party in 2020. In the National Football League, the Tennessee Titans had 24 cases (13 players, 11 staff) in October, while the Baltimore Ravens had more than 12 cases in December. These both represented about 20 percent of players; the percentages for staff are more difficult to estimate.

All of these outbreaks occurred under tighter covid-19 protocols than what the Yankees were under, including greatly limited shared indoor time and strict masking requirements. Vaccinated Yankees were allowed to spend unmasked time together indoors in hotels and clubhouses. Coaches and staff, who represent eight of the nine cases, were in tight indoor quarters during a rain delay just before the outbreak began. This is a perfect environment for the virus to spread, much like the Skagit County, Washington, choir practice outbreak in March 2020 that sickened about 86 percent of the 61 attendees.

Without vaccines, then, one could reasonably guess that at least 40 percent of the roughly 60-person Yankees traveling party, or 24 people, would have been infected. The fact that only nine were infected suggests that vaccination prevented 15 cases out of 24 possible, or 63 percent. That would be almost exactly the reported efficacy against infection (66.3 percent) of the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, which most Yankees received. In other words, the vaccine would have been operating as expected.

Finally, the Yankees are a unique case because they are tested regularly. Outside of pro sports, many “breakthrough infections” that occur in fully vaccinated individuals — while most likely still quite rare — are undercounted because those people are often asymptomatic and don’t get tested. We saw a small outbreak of mild disease on the Yankees because we were looking for it. There may be others elsewhere that we don’t see. But when we look at the arguably more important data on severe cases, such as hospitalizations and deaths, we have seen dramatic improvements in areas with substantial vaccination.

It is likely the vaccine worked as expected on the Yankees: It prevented many more cases, only allowed the virus to spread from one person and reduced disease severity. This is what is needed to return us to normal. Willie Mays never played finer defense.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Reasons why I will not be getting injected for the Wuhan

Post by murphy_p_t » Tue May 18, 2021 4:30 am

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