Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

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Benko
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Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by Benko » Tue May 11, 2021 10:56 am

I’ve run a meetup book club for years—classic novels e.g. Steinbeck, Maugham, Austin, etc. This Month’s book was first half of Vanity Fair. At the online book club last night someone said perhaps Vanity Fair should join Dr Seuss (book recently cancelled). I got upset and said that politics didn’t belong at this book club. She said something like there were parts of this book that made her uncomfortable and that not opposing it was going along with it. Now the person who made these comments is very likable, well educated who we all enjoy. The conversation calmed down for the rest of the evening. However I’m now thinking that this person could complain to meetup about me (and get the book club canned), but more importantly I’m a physician and while I don’t think anyone knows my last name, I imagine they could track me down and potentially get me fired.

Am I over reacting?

I’m thinking safest for me personally is to cancel the book club. Perhaps just leave it cancelled, or perhaps restart it outside meetup without the one person (though one could argue that makes me actually guilty of the accusation).

Thoughts? Thanks for your time.
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Benko
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by Benko » Tue May 11, 2021 12:09 pm

Alas employment is Gov't hospital.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by stuper1 » Tue May 11, 2021 12:47 pm

If you can be fired for saying that politics don't belong in a book club that you run, then we are in deep trouble. It seems to me that it's your book club. You get to make the rules. If you don't want politics in your book club, then that's the rule. Try talking about politics on Bogleheads and see how long it takes for the thread to get locked.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by I Shrugged » Tue May 11, 2021 1:00 pm

I grew up in a rural public school system. Haven't read Vanity Fair, never heard of it actually. so what's the troubling part of it?

Also, I think the best approach is to tell everyone that if a book makes them uncomfortable, they should sit that one out.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by Cortopassi » Tue May 11, 2021 1:23 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:57 am
I think Cancel Culture is a cancer that has to be stopped, so my general feeling is to not let left wing loons (Are there any people on the right doing this? I don't think so.)
https://www.buzzfeed.com/stephenlaconte ... el-culture

--Current canceling of easy access to voting
--Canceled Kapernick's career
--Dixie Chicks
--Nascar (confederate flag ban)
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GT
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by GT » Tue May 11, 2021 2:44 pm

Benko wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 10:56 am
I’ve run a meetup book club for years—classic novels e.g. Steinbeck, Maugham, Austin, etc. This Month’s book was first half of Vanity Fair. At the online book club last night someone said perhaps Vanity Fair should join Dr Seuss (book recently cancelled). I got upset and said that politics didn’t belong at this book club. She said something like there were parts of this book that made her uncomfortable and that not opposing it was going along with it. Now the person who made these comments is very likable, well educated who we all enjoy. The conversation calmed down for the rest of the evening. However I’m now thinking that this person could complain to meetup about me (and get the book club canned), but more importantly I’m a physician and while I don’t think anyone knows my last name, I imagine they could track me down and potentially get me fired.

Am I over reacting?

I’m thinking safest for me personally is to cancel the book club. Perhaps just leave it cancelled, or perhaps restart it outside meetup without the one person (though one could argue that makes me actually guilty of the accusation).

Thoughts? Thanks for your time.
It sounds like you want to keep the book club going - I would be honest with your concerns and look for ideas to resolve future conflict

State the book club is for fun and ask for suggestions to the group on how conflict due to subject matter should be handled - restate politics is off limits as politics and fun do not always go together

Maybe give an example and see how the groups works out the problem

Reading for review:

Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet

Shakespeare's Romeo and Juliet, Juliet was 13
" Old Capulet says to Paris, 'she hath not seen the change of fourteen years'.

At the beginning of Act III, scene v, Romeo and Juliet are together in Juliet’s bed just before dawn, having spent the night with each other and feeling reluctant to separate.

Issue:
Someone in the group is uncomfortable reading about a 13 year old girl in bed with a male.

Possible solutions
- have the person that is uncomfortable excuses themselves from the discussion
- work on a book review list ahead of time to make sure everyone is comfortable with the subject matter
- agree Shakespeare was a perv for writing about a 13 year old girl - help to cancel Romeo and Juliet - heck, cancel Shakespeare altogether
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by Cortopassi » Tue May 11, 2021 2:50 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:29 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 1:23 pm
MangoMan wrote:
Tue May 11, 2021 11:57 am
I think Cancel Culture is a cancer that has to be stopped, so my general feeling is to not let left wing loons (Are there any people on the right doing this? I don't think so.)
https://www.buzzfeed.com/stephenlaconte ... el-culture

--Current canceling of easy access to voting
--Canceled Kapernick's career
--Dixie Chicks
--Nascar (confederate flag ban)
I stand corrected. Technically. But

They were able to come up with 16 times dating back several decades. The left does more than that in any given 24 hour period, so nice try.
oh, and the current big one, trying to cancel Liz Cheney. Hah. Gotta toe the line.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by Benko » Tue May 11, 2021 3:32 pm

Can you take discussion of cancel culture to another thread please.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by Cortopassi » Tue May 11, 2021 3:34 pm

No need. But like I shrugged, I would like to know what was offensive about Vanity Fair. I just did a quick skim of Wikipedia on it and nothing jumped out.

Hell, I just thought it was a magazine.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by WiseOne » Tue May 11, 2021 3:58 pm

Benko that is sad that a book club aimed at discussing classic literature is now an impossibility. Don't cancel it just because some snowflake (whose presence is entirely voluntary) couldn't handle an adult discussion!

There is almost no historical work of any note (fiction or non-fiction) that won't offend someone in this day and age.

I would vote for you to continue the book club but include a general disclaimer, something like "Warning: the concepts and viewpoints that are discussed may cause discomfort to certain people. Such people may be advised to reconsider their participation."

Or put a "PG" or "R" rating on books prior to discussion, to warn sensitive people what to expect. Naturally, you'll rate all books as PG or R, unless you're absolutely certain it's one of the rare books that won't offend anyone.

If you're seriously worried that a book club discussing classic literature is enough to get you fired from your job, then we are in a sad situation indeed. Makes me thankful I'm at the point of being able to retire if I wanted to - or had to.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by glennds » Tue May 11, 2021 4:11 pm

Just pick another book and have a good time.
Sounds like an enjoyable group.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by Benko » Tue May 11, 2021 8:25 pm

Thanks everyone.

I don't remember what made her uncomfortable. I do remember that the book illustrates issues/flaws with the main characters and with society at that time. She wanted something "more uplifting" and I pointed out she was free to read whatever she wanted but that this was the point of my book club i.e. to read books which better illustrate the human condition. Tolstoy, Somerset Maugham and Steinbeck are great at that.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by Pet Hog » Wed May 12, 2021 3:43 pm

I suggest you two should be like William Thackeray and Makepeace.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by vnatale » Wed May 12, 2021 7:59 pm

Is what was described and being discussed truly "cancel culture".

The first definition I see is:

Definition of cancel culture
: the practice or tendency of engaging in mass canceling (see CANCEL entry 1 sense 1e) as a way of expressing disapproval and exerting social pressure

I believe I read about the actions of one person? There was no "mass" involved?

Is that person's actions any different than parents objecting to specific concepts that are being taught to their children in public schools? If not, I believe this happens with a fair amount of regularity and I don't believe I've ever seen it being described as an example of "cancel culture".
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by murphy_p_t » Wed May 12, 2021 9:59 pm

"She said something like there were parts of this book that made her uncomfortable and that not opposing it was going along with it. "

If an adult says they're uncomfortable with something, and they are genuine, they are an adult and have free will and can excuse herself from the situation.

Not knowing anything about the book, My interpretation is that this individual is acting in a passive aggressive mode in order to impose her political/moral views on your private club... Without having the candor to be forthright.

Like Dr Seuss.... So essentially she fancies herself as the censor and is withholding her nihil obstat.

Unfortunately, in this day and age, this is not far removed from sort of thing where vindictive b****** destroy people's livelihood.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by Benko » Wed May 12, 2021 11:41 pm

Murphy you are correct and I suspect I have not heard the end of this topic (though I can try to find books without any references she can twist.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by Maddy » Thu May 13, 2021 7:17 am

Sounds like a power thing to me. The ultimate objective behind this woman's behavior, I suspect, is to make her "identity" the focus of the group and to have you spending your time and mental energy in a (likely never-ending) effort to accommodate her sensitivities. Once you go down that path, you're done.

FWIW, it's impossible to reconcile the love of literature with the desire to "cancel" objectionable viewpoints. Chances are, it's literature itself--together with its potential for unregulated thought--that is the real threat to this woman.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by WiseOne » Thu May 13, 2021 10:02 am

Maddy wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 7:17 am
Sounds like a power thing to me. The ultimate objective behind this woman's behavior, I suspect, is to make her "identity" the focus of the group and to have you spending your time and mental energy in a (likely never-ending) effort to accommodate her sensitivities. Once you go down that path, you're done.

FWIW, it's impossible to reconcile the love of literature with the desire to "cancel" objectionable viewpoints. Chances are, it's literature itself--together with its potential for unregulated thought--that is the real threat to this woman.
If this woman didn't potentially have the power to end Benko's career, it would be a simple disagreement that the group could easily deal with and move on from.

What's happened is that people who subscribe to political correctness and are easily offended went from being merely annoying to outright dangerous. A few years ago, we had threads complaining about people such as these, but there was no element of fear in the equation. Now there is.

My advice to Benko: Aim to become financially independent so that you can survive the loss of your job should your worst fears come to pass. And make the group exclusionary by providing disclaimers in advance, like sending out book info together with warnings about potentially objectionable content, and participation at each person's own risk.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by Benko » Thu May 13, 2021 5:13 pm

The history of this bookblub is that there have been from time to time people who join to seek attention and who try to dominate the conversation. This one just has an added feature.

Even after the brief interchange during the beginning of the last meeting subsided, there was very little discussing the book, I assume people (at least several of whom really liked the book) were concerned about speaking up.

The next meeting will be to finish the 2nd half of the book. If she attends and pulls this again, I'll become too busy to host any more events. Any attempt to restart it e.g. privately, or on meetup with e.g. a disclaimer she'll see as aimed at her and it will only make it worse.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by WiseOne » Fri May 14, 2021 10:17 am

Seems a shame for one person to ruin a good thing that benefits a lot of other people.

Why not speak up and call her out on her disruptive behavior, if she does it again? You can be polite about it, e.g. "I think we've heard your viewpoint, now it's time to hear from some others, and there's lots to this book apart from that one observation." If she persists, then you can say "I think it's very important that one person not dominate the conversation, this is supposed to be a group where everyone should feel free to contribute".

Just be super careful that anything you say could be quoted on the front page of the NY Times without causing people to call for your head on a platter.
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Re: Thoughts please: cancel culture and my book club

Post by glennds » Fri May 14, 2021 10:33 am

Benko wrote:
Thu May 13, 2021 5:13 pm
The history of this bookblub is that there have been from time to time people who join to seek attention and who try to dominate the conversation. This one just has an added feature.

Even after the brief interchange during the beginning of the last meeting subsided, there was very little discussing the book, I assume people (at least several of whom really liked the book) were concerned about speaking up.

The next meeting will be to finish the 2nd half of the book. If she attends and pulls this again, I'll become too busy to host any more events. Any attempt to restart it e.g. privately, or on meetup with e.g. a disclaimer she'll see as aimed at her and it will only make it worse.
Is is possible to simply have a standing rule that allows anyone in the group to opt out on any book that is problematic for them, and resume on the next one? You don't have to make the rule didactic or snarky.
In Vancouver I used to be part of a group that hosted monthly in-person talks at various libraries and community centers around the city. We rotated locations to make it more convenient for people and for the change of scenery. The format was a short presentation by a speaker on a scheduled topic followed by round table discussion. Some talks really interested me, and others didn't so I skipped them. No big deal.

Although as a note of paradox, there were a few instances where for social reasons I attended a talk that didn't really interest me, or so I thought. Once the discussion started on the topic, it became increasingly interesting and I learned perhaps I didn't know what I didn't know. Maybe through a side conversation, your member could be persuaded to set aside her negative bias on the one book and see if the ensuing discussion might alter (or even confirm) her attitude. This is how we grow.
It's kind of nice when our friends give us that chance to grow rather than just judge us in the worst terms.

As a side note, I find it VERY hard to accept that your career is on the line by hosting a book club of the likes of yours.
I'd love to hear what you decide to do and how this situation evolves.
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