Alternatives to Modern Medicine

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Benko
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Benko » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:25 pm

Surely the energy stuff has been compared to a placebo. Does it work or doesn't it?

which stuff?; Chinese liniment which is $20/bottle? Chiropractic/other associated modalities? exercises to treat disk problems? Several flavors of Chinese medicine?

It is all much more complicated and less profitable than you might think and I have no idea. I think Jin Shin Jyutsu has some studies but I'm not sure. You could contact Jin Shin Jyutsu in Scottsdale and ask them..
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Kbg » Mon Jun 28, 2021 6:27 pm

I wish I could find the article I read several months ago, but I can't. Apparently the Chinese government has spent quite a bit Yuan over the past couple of decades scientifically evaluating Chinese medicine using western techniques and most of it isn't passing muster.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Maddy » Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:28 pm

Benko wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 5:38 pm
If something is effective it should be able to produce positive results, that is all that matters. Whether it can be explained by standard western science is less important.
Certainly. However, my own experience with alternative medicine has been fraught with disappointments. So much "try this, try that," and usually confounded by so many variables (including a natural waxing and waning of the condition) that it's never real clear whether it's helping or not. This can go on for years, with no clear plan, and no objective benchmarks of success or failure. Those disappointments, in cumulation, breed a certain hopelessness and the expectation of failure--not to mention an anger, in some instances, toward the practitioner who turned out to have more self-confidence than talent.

There are a lot of scammers out there. Not only scammers, but "true believers" who have come to actually believe their own bullshit. BTW, I'm not lumping Chinese medicine in with that--only observing that there seems to be no easy way of separating the wheat from the chaff.

Now, take the keto/low carb stuff we've been discussing. There's a good example of a non-mainstream, even heretical, approach to diabetes and related metabolic problems--something at which modern western medicine is clearly failing. But there's a good amount of science to support it. We know why it works. It makes sense.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Maddy » Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:52 pm

The cutting-edge stuff coming out about the connection between chronic inflammation and degenerative disease--and its relationship to gut microbiome--is another good example of a non-mainstream approach to a whole spectrum of diseases that modern western medicine still largely regards as either unavoidable (just part of getting old) or nonexistent (in your head). The research is impressive and is advancing daily; no need to take anything on faith. But try finding a reputable physician that deals with that kind of thing in his clinical practice.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Tortoise » Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:58 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:38 pm
Tortoise wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:23 pm
She doesn’t want to see a chiropractor.
Why not? Back issues are an occupational hazard of dentistry. I have gleaned much, much relief for sciatica, neck pain, headaches and other back issues from good chiropractors. Deep tissue massage is also extremely helpful. Back surgery should be considered a last resort.
Probably because she's been married to my dad for over 50 years, and he considers chiropractors to be quacks. I guess it rubbed off on her.

My dad is a very intelligent guy, but he's far from open-minded about a lot of things. I guess chiropractic is one example. It looks like Wikipedia (the fountain of truth) agrees with him:
Chiropractic is a pseudoscientific alternative medicine that is concerned with the diagnosis and treatment of mechanical disorders of the musculoskeletal system, especially the spine [...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic
What argument or supporting data/evidence would you guys recommend I present to my mom (and dad, since he obviously has influence here) to try to open her mind to the possibility of seeing a chiropractor?
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:08 pm

Maddy wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:52 pm
The cutting-edge stuff coming out about the connection between chronic inflammation and degenerative disease--and its relationship to gut microbiome--is another good example of a non-mainstream approach to a whole spectrum of diseases that modern western medicine still largely regards as either unavoidable (just part of getting old) or nonexistent (in your head). The research is impressive and is advancing daily; no need to take anything on faith. But try finding a reputable physician that deals with that kind of thing in his clinical practice.
So much of the decline I see in my parents and other older people, in my opinion could be lessened with minimal changes, the majority of which always come back to diet.

But the whole doctor is always right mentality is so ingrained in my parents at least that it has been and will forever be impossible to break them from it.

My mother's body nearly all the time looks like she has been beaten with a baseball bat because of taking blood thinners to theoretically help prevent a stroke from her occasional a-fib and any tiny normal bump of anything causes a huge bruise.

She has been to the emergency room so many times I cannot count for various things where bleeding would not stop -- nose bleed, biting her lip, etc.

Which is better? I don't know the stats on how much blood thinners cut the risk of stroke, but is the lower quality of life it has given her for years been worth it? Yes to her. Don't think I would make the same decision.
----
For me as I've said many times, if I limit carbs, and do not snack, I lose weight, and my joints feel great. If I eat carbs, and I gain weight and my joints ache when stressed. It is 100% correlated.

When I do IF and or OMAD (one meal a day) I can even throw in a bunch of carbs and not have issues. So it's also very much related to how often I eat not how much.

It's good to see a lot of low carb and Keto stuff on the shelves now, but in the end those are mainly all still just snacks, and probably shouldn't be eaten for the most part anyway.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Cortopassi » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:13 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:58 pm

What argument or supporting data/evidence would you guys recommend I present to my mom (and dad, since he obviously has influence here) to try to open her mind to the possibility of seeing a chiropractor?
My parents are 86 and 89. I have long since given up trying to change opinions at that age. Good luck. I saw a chiro for about 10 visits a few years ago for a piriformis issue. I did take away that the PT portion of things, working the area/muscle repetitively, daily, over a number of weeks, ended up being the real solution for me, not the adjustments.

My dad wants to be active, wants to do things he can't do anymore, but now after getting out of the hospital this latest time, he gets a PT person once or twice a week for a while and those are always the times he coincidentally doesn't feel like doing therapy. And then complains later. Like clockwork.

I sure hope my old age is different.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by vnatale » Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:34 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:21 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:58 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 7:38 pm

Tortoise wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 3:23 pm

She doesn’t want to see a chiropractor.


Why not? Back issues are an occupational hazard of dentistry. I have gleaned much, much relief for sciatica, neck pain, headaches and other back issues from good chiropractors. Deep tissue massage is also extremely helpful. Back surgery should be considered a last resort.


Probably because she's been married to my dad for over 50 years, and he considers chiropractors to be quacks. I guess it rubbed off on her.

My dad is a very intelligent guy, but he's far from open-minded about a lot of things. I guess chiropractic is one example. It looks like Wikipedia (the fountain of truth) agrees with him:


Chiropractic is a pseudoscientific alternative medicine that is concerned with the diagnosis and treatment of mechanical disorders of the musculoskeletal system, especially the spine [...]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic


What argument or supporting data/evidence would you guys recommend I present to my mom (and dad, since he obviously has influence here) to try to open her mind to the possibility of seeing a chiropractor?


When you get some chiro telling you that you can't get pregnant bc T4 is out of alignment (true story), you have pseudoscience. When my head has been twisted for 40 minutes doing a root canal on an upper second molar and I leave work with a headache, I can actually feel with my hand that C2 is out of alignment, and I know for a fact that having my chiro put it back in place gives me nearly instant relief.

IDK how you can convince your mother other than to tell her how several of your friends have had huge success with chiro and she has little to lose by at least trying a couple of treatments. If it doesn't help, big deal, she's out a couple of medicare copays.


I'm surprised how many here have faith in chiropractors.

I'd gone to a few in the early 1980s. My impression from my last visit is that their treatments make it feel better when they are working on me but then it comes back the next day.

However, it was around 1987 that Consumer Reports had a devastating article regarding chiropractors (basically agreeing with the above wikipedia current opinion) that I decided upon reading that article I'd never go to see one again. And, I have not.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Xan » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:11 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:34 pm
I'm surprised how many here have faith in chiropractors.

I'd gone to a few in the early 1980s. My impression from my last visit is that their treatments make it feel better when they are working on me but then it comes back the next day.

However, it was around 1987 that Consumer Reports had a devastating article regarding chiropractors (basically agreeing with the above wikipedia current opinion) that I decided upon reading that article I'd never go to see one again. And, I have not.
Me too. I'm also surprised to hear that Medicare covers procedures by fake doctors.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by vnatale » Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:44 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:28 pm

Xan wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:11 pm

vnatale wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:34 pm
I'm surprised how many here have faith in chiropractors.

I'd gone to a few in the early 1980s. My impression from my last visit is that their treatments make it feel better when they are working on me but then it comes back the next day.

However, it was around 1987 that Consumer Reports had a devastating article regarding chiropractors (basically agreeing with the above wikipedia current opinion) that I decided upon reading that article I'd never go to see one again. And, I have not.


Me too. I'm also surprised to hear that Medicare covers procedures by fake doctors.

Ya, they're so fake that every state in the country licenses them, and medical insurance generally covers visits to some degree.


Yes. Health insurance in Massachusetts has covered them for decades. But usually limited to so many visits in a year, similar to physical therapy.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Benko » Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:26 am

I have no desire to talk anyone into anything.

There are bad practitioners in every field e.g. I had to find another orthopedist because the highly thought of one I was seeing wasn't treating me optimally.

Part of the problem is that people are individuals and 50 people with disease x don't all have the same abnormal things going on in their body to result in that disease (makes doing studies tricky). There is no one right diet for everyone e.g. as much as I'd prefer lower carb, my body now requires a very low fat diet now (because of the weird autoimmune thing).

There are research studies looking at particular herbal combinations for particular medical issues with positive results.

As far as chiros, good ones know many different techniques, not just chiropractic. And as far as benefits of chiropractic itself, I'd sprained my ankle ages ago and it still hut a month later. I happened to be seeing a Chiro (for another reason) and mentioned my ankle. He adjusted my ankle bone (talus) and the pain went away instantly.

Like I suggested, have a good traditional practitioner to diagnose you, and go from there. The exception is musculoskeletal issues in which docs are useless (unless you break a bone, tear a ligament) in which case e.g. old school physical therapist is place to start.

PS consumer reports is useful for e.g. listing helpful features on something you want to buy. Taking their opinions on anything is not wise.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Maddy » Tue Jun 29, 2021 9:04 am

Benko wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:26 am
I have no desire to talk anyone into anything.
Benko, I hope you don't take my questions/skepticism as criticism. It's definitely not meant that way.

I find it fascinating that, as a radiologist whose profession is all about objective signs, you've managed to surmount a hurdle that consistently hangs me up.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by I Shrugged » Tue Jun 29, 2021 2:43 pm

With acupuncture at least, all you’ve got to lose if it doesn’t work is some money.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Maddy » Tue Jun 29, 2021 4:04 pm

I used a chiropractor for one problem, and had a very good experience.

I had a very bad, persistent muscle spasm in my neck. It had gone on for several months and had me pretty much immobilized a good deal of the time. I went on anti-inflammatories and muscle relaxants, which helped a bit but not nearly enough. I finally ended up going to a local chiropractor that was recommended by a friend. I was pleased to find that he was a pretty "normal" guy who had a pretty common-sense, physical therapy-like way of looking at things. Much to my relief, he didn't do any pulling or jerking. He used a "tapper" (my name for it) that delivered a succession of high-velocity, low-impact taps to the soft tissue around the joints of my spine. The point was to break up adhesions and to restore mobility. Within the first couple of weeks the spasm was nearly gone, and after about 12 weeks I had noticeably better range of motion all up and down my spine. An interesting side effect is that I felt more energized generally.

About 30 years before, I had seen a chiropractor for a back problem, and I couldn't get out of there fast enough. So I guess it depends a lot on the chiropractor you choose.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by vnatale » Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:34 pm

Benko wrote:
Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:26 am

I have no desire to talk anyone into anything.

There are bad practitioners in every field e.g. I had to find another orthopedist because the highly thought of one I was seeing wasn't treating me optimally.

Part of the problem is that people are individuals and 50 people with disease x don't all have the same abnormal things going on in their body to result in that disease (makes doing studies tricky). There is no one right diet for everyone e.g. as much as I'd prefer lower carb, my body now requires a very low fat diet now (because of the weird autoimmune thing).

There are research studies looking at particular herbal combinations for particular medical issues with positive results.

As far as chiros, good ones know many different techniques, not just chiropractic. And as far as benefits of chiropractic itself, I'd sprained my ankle ages ago and it still hut a month later. I happened to be seeing a Chiro (for another reason) and mentioned my ankle. He adjusted my ankle bone (talus) and the pain went away instantly.

Like I suggested, have a good traditional practitioner to diagnose you, and go from there. The exception is musculoskeletal issues in which docs are useless (unless you break a bone, tear a ligament) in which case e.g. old school physical therapist is place to start.

PS consumer reports is useful for e.g. listing helpful features on something you want to buy. Taking their opinions on anything is not wise.


On the other hand...15, 20 years ago I strained something in my groin area while running down to first base in a softball game.

Finally after a month of it not healing and not being able to play softball during that time I made an appointment at a physical therapy place.

I was shocked when the guy I saw had me do one stretch and the pain I'd felt consistently for that month just went away. Permanently! Never to come back.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by WiseOne » Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:38 am

Just wanted to add in an answer to Maddy's earlier question about what I meant by "Quack Index" (QI).

Alternative treatments, as long as they've been studied and therefore don't amount to experimenting on patients on their nickel, are just fine. The problem I have with the functional medicine practices in NYC is that they're just a bit too obvious that their primary motive is to get very rich. For example, one MD in particular charges an outrageous fee for followup visits ($400) and it has to be paid in cash at the time of the visit as they don't take insurance. The practice also sells expensive products online which are shamelessly hawked during the visit - rather a conflict of interest there I would think. Finally, they push expensive and very questionable services like IV vitamin infusions.

There's another MD I'm aware of in NYC who flat out lies online about his institutional/hospital affiliation (he used to be connected with a prominent university medical center but they kicked him out), and everyone who comes to see him gets a very squirrelly diagnosis that has to be made clinically based on several pieces of evidence. He does it based on a single test which he sends to a pathologist that I happen to know. This happened when a relative of mine went hunting for alternative treatments and I got the back story from my pathologist friend. Bottom line is, they won't take this guy's business anymore and had already consulted a lawyer about the situation even before I told them what was happening.

Another example is ozone treatments. These are not FDA-approved for a very good reason: they carry a high risk of liver damage and there is no proven benefit. Yet, many functional medicine practitioners in the US offer it anyway (at a high price of course) basically daring the FDA to come get them. Occasionally that happens, usually when a patient is injured by the treatment. My relative (same one) who got this treatment ended up with a nice case of pancreatitis so she probably did sustain some injury, but she's more or less ok now. Needless to say it did nothing for her problems.

Anyway that's what I meant by "quack". A functional medicine MD with a normal practice who charges reasonable fees for a primary care physician, sends out labs as needed, takes insurance, and in general acts like a doctor just with some extra tools up their sleeve, is just fine with me. They exist but unfortunately not where I live.
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by Xan » Thu Jul 01, 2021 9:23 am

Maddy, I'm going to give you an anecdote, and we'll see whether it's relevant.

The best medical situation we've found was when we were looking for an obstetrician for our pregnancies. One thing we definitely wanted to avoid, if possible, was a C-section, which too often is pushed by doctors because it's more convenient for them. But we also didn't want to go the hippy-dippy home-birth route: way too much can go wrong.

Our ideal was a midwife delivery in a hospital. And this exists! We found an OB/GYN practice which is a combination of midwives, nurse practitioners, and MDs. All of them work with every patient, and so they're able to deliver whatever care is needed at any given time. The outlook is very non-interventionist, so rather than for example going straight on pitocin as labor begins, it's only used if it's needed. They won't push for a C-section and will let you go as long as you need, if you're making progress. They are very supportive of alternative pain management methods like hypnotism. We and the doctors, nurses, and midwives came up with a plan, and the doctors are always around in case something really goes wrong.

It's been the best experience in the medical realm we've had.

I'm not sure how this helps you, Maddy. It should be possible to identify a practice like this: it's well-known in the hospital maternity ward which practices are like this and which are not, so talking to anybody who works there should uncover them. I'm sure it would show up in the C-section rates if those are public. This might be a good way to find a GYN, and maybe they could also double as your primary care. If not, it might be worth finding out who THEY use as their primary doctors.

It sounds like this might be the kind of thing you're looking for, although I'm not sure. And of course it only works if such a thing exists in your area. Good luck!
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Re: Alternatives to Modern Medicine

Post by williamramir » Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:08 am

Benko wrote:
Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:17 am
Maddy,

If you are uncomfortable with something don't use it.

"Breath through your nipples" sounds like Chi Gung which is a different animal from what I'm talking about (Chinese herbs mainly).

"I have found myself turned off by the fact that its prescriptions are so often explained in purely "energetic" terms."

I sympathize but consider that the standard medical model which you are comfortable with:

a. Fails with many/most cases of back pain. A cardiologist I know "kept her back issue in check with yoga" but she hadn't done yoga for awhile so her back flared up so I sent her to an acupuncturist. 1 session and back pain went away. NOTE: Tai chi and yoga both have health benefits because you are giving yourself an energy treatment.

b. Conventional medical model ignores emotional component of illnesses (which are in many illnesses)

c. Unless you break a bone/tear a ligament, many/most musculoskeletal problems need "soft tissue work" as part of solution. The soft tissue work can be from an old school physical therapist (if you can find one), Active Release Technique (often chiropracters) or a good massage therapist. This concept is no more part of western medical model than energy meridians. Physical therapy (I gather) in the name of science, is moving away from this.
It is very strange that in our time of advanced technology so little attention is paid to the mental health of people. You are right to say that only the fact of illness is treated, and no one understands the root causes of the patient's condition.
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