Electric Vehicles and Tires

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

Don
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 286
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:21 pm

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by Don » Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:55 am

I was sitting in a parking lot of a supermarket when a flatbed tow truck hauls in a Tesla that had ran out of juice. The tow truck backed the Tesla up to the charging station and the owner climbed up on the truck with the electric charger in her hand. She couldn't open the doors of her vehicle either. Ain't green energy grand?
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 14232
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: synagogue of Satan
Contact:

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by dualstow » Tue Jan 11, 2022 1:43 pm

Don wrote:
Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:55 am
I was sitting in a parking lot of a supermarket when a flatbed tow truck hauls in a Tesla that had ran out of juice. The tow truck backed the Tesla up to the charging station and the owner climbed up on the truck with the electric charger in her hand. She couldn't open the doors of her vehicle either. Ain't green energy grand?
I heard someone talking about a Tesla on a flatbed, too. They couldn’t turn the alarm off. A stranger has to get inside to do that.
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
User avatar
Mountaineer
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4959
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2012 10:54 am

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by Mountaineer » Sun Feb 06, 2022 11:10 am

Desert wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:40 am
The "greenest" vehicle is probably a small, gas-powered, boring hatchback that is replaced very infrequently.
I agree. Here is a picture of mine. ;)
Attachments
Screen Shot 2022-02-06 at 12.08.27 PM.png
Screen Shot 2022-02-06 at 12.08.27 PM.png (637.62 KiB) Viewed 3392 times
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
User avatar
Kriegsspiel
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4052
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by Kriegsspiel » Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:22 pm

Desert wrote:
Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:40 am
The "greenest" vehicle is probably a small, gas-powered, boring hatchback that is replaced very infrequently.
I think that's right. Well, it doesn't need to be a hatchback (a small 4 cylinder sedan is just as "green" as a hatchback but not as functional). I also think frequent replacement is not ideal, financially, but it wouldn't affect the "greenness" of the vehicle.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by Mark Leavy » Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:22 pm

Desert wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:10 pm
Forgetting about the numbers/facts for a second, I have to admit that I really, really like regenerative braking. That's a beautiful thing, compared with wasting all that momentum in brake pad heat.
When I was but an egg, I used to design elevator control systems back in the Paleolithic period. Due to the way counterweights are designed, most of the energy is used while the car is going down and it is regenerated going up. All analog back then, of course. It is must harder to do with silicon switching systems. But... a long solved problem.

Truth is, it doesn't really make that much difference in the bottom line. But, I'm with you. I appreciate the elegance of returning that energy to the source.
User avatar
Kriegsspiel
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4052
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:40 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:33 pm
Side note: Teslas are extremely expensive to insure compared to a similarly priced gasoline car. Repairs are apparently costly and they will often total the car if there is more than minor body damage.
The insurance is one of the things that give me pause about buying one. I'd say insurance costs also don't directly matter for "greenness," just like selling them doesn't.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
User avatar
Kriegsspiel
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 4052
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 5:28 pm

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:43 pm

Desert wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:10 pm
Forgetting about the numbers/facts for a second, I have to admit that I really, really like regenerative braking. That's a beautiful thing, compared with wasting all that momentum in brake pad heat.
On the other hand (I may be wrong here), electric cars can't coast. I have only bought cars with a manual transmission, in part so that I can coast down hills or up to stop signs or whatever.
You there, Ephialtes. May you live forever.
whatchamacallit
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 750
Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:32 pm

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by whatchamacallit » Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:22 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:43 pm
Desert wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:10 pm
Forgetting about the numbers/facts for a second, I have to admit that I really, really like regenerative braking. That's a beautiful thing, compared with wasting all that momentum in brake pad heat.
On the other hand (I may be wrong here), electric cars can't coast. I have only bought cars with a manual transmission, in part so that I can coast down hills or up to stop signs or whatever.
Save the manuals. I fear the day I can't buy a manual transmission car.
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 14232
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: synagogue of Satan
Contact:

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by dualstow » Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:07 pm

I got to wondering if Teslas can charge themselves by coasting. The answer is complicated.
https://www.greencarfuture.com/electric/charge-downhill


EDIT: and now Desert’s mention of regenerative braking and Mark’s elevator post make more sense to me.
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by vnatale » Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:29 pm

whatchamacallit wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 7:22 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:43 pm

Desert wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:10 pm

Forgetting about the numbers/facts for a second, I have to admit that I really, really like regenerative braking. That's a beautiful thing, compared with wasting all that momentum in brake pad heat.


On the other hand (I may be wrong here), electric cars can't coast. I have only bought cars with a manual transmission, in part so that I can coast down hills or up to stop signs or whatever.


Save the manuals. I fear the day I can't buy a manual transmission car.


Back in the 60s, 70s manuals also got a fair amount better miles per gallon than automatics but sometime in the 2000's this advantage narrowed considerably?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4393
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by Xan » Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:23 pm

Desert wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:20 pm
vnatale wrote:
Mon Feb 07, 2022 9:29 pm

Back in the 60s, 70s manuals also got a fair amount better miles per gallon than automatics but sometime in the 2000's this advantage narrowed considerably?
Manual transmissions get worse mpg and worse 0-60 times these days. The integration of transmission controls and engine controls, along with reducing the losses of the slushboxes has rendered manuals pretty much obsolete.

But yeah, real men still at least want to shift their own gears.
Sadly, yes, the practical considerations now favor the automatics. But it's still about 100x more fun to drive a stick.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by vnatale » Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:46 pm

Desert wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 4:22 pm

Pugchief, the DOT is looking out for you:

The U.S. Department of Transportation announced today that it will distribute $5 billion to U.S. states over the next five years so they can build out an electric-vehicle charging infrastructure along the U.S. interstate highway system.


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3902 ... k-details/


However, when is it forecast that you can travel 300 to 400 miles on a charge just like going that many miles on a full tank of gas? Plus when we run out of gas in those tanks, it only takes us 5-10 minutes to fill up. How long does it currently take to "fill up" an electric car's battery?

Getting at the practicality of electric cars in terms of driving long distances and not having significant down time for refueling.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by vnatale » Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:39 am

What is the expected life of a Tesla?

What would be the average cost to own if the vehicle did not even more out of your garage?

So that would be annual depreciation, real estate taxes, insurance, battery replacement (if the batteries die without even being used)?

I tried to answer my own question using this tool:

https://www.edmunds.com/tco.html

.....but I could not get any response for 2022, 2021, or 2020 models.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 14232
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: synagogue of Satan
Contact:

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by dualstow » Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:21 am

Desert wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 7:28 pm
Yeah, long trips are the reason I haven't seriously considered an EV. I like to be able to get in a vehicle and drive without worrying about finding a charging station, and without waiting a long time for said charge.

EVs do sound great for commuting around a city though.
vnatale wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:46 pm
How long does it currently take to "fill up" an electric car's battery?


Many years ago, I read about battery swapping in electric scooters and bikes in Taiwan.
I have not looked at this video, but I searched just to see if any full-sized cars have that feature.

NIO ES8 & 3-minute Battery Swap Station
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTsrDpsYHrw
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by vnatale » Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:02 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:30 am

vnatale wrote:
Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:46 pm

How long does it currently take to "fill up" an electric car's battery?


Sorry, missed that question the first time.

I had a 220v line installed in the garage which will replenish the battery from near-empty to near full (adding about 200 miles) in a few hours. With a standard 115v outlet, you would need about 8-10 hours, so plugged in overnight is enough even with a standard outlet.


So fairly impractical for driving any type of long distance.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by vnatale » Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:14 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:56 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Feb 13, 2022 10:39 am



What would be the average cost to own if the vehicle did not even more out of your garage?




I do not understand that question


Did you miss where I elaborated (and which you did not quote)?

"So that would be annual depreciation, real estate taxes, insurance, battery replacement (if the batteries die without even being used)?"

I'm trying to get at the fixed costs of the vehicle, aside from any operating costs due to actually driving it, i.e., cost of electricity to charge battery, any repairs and maintenance.

Therefore, going through my list and making wild guesses on my part.

If the vehicle cost $49,000 and has no value after seven years ...then its annual depreciation is $7,000 per year.

I said real estate taxes when I meant property taxes. Could those be $800 a year?

Insurance - you said it was quite expensive. $2,000 per year?

If batteries have to be replaced once during those seven years and they cost $4,900 to replace then that would be another $700 a year in fixed costs.

Again. These are all wild guesses on my part. I assume you know the actual amounts.

These days I drive little. Really little. It used to be only 5,000 miles a year. Now it is down to 1,000 to 2,000 miles per year.

My 2004 Honda is still worth the same what I paid for it when I bought is 8 years ago. So it has had no annual depreciation. My property taxes are $63 a year. My insurance has no collision but does have comprehensive and high limits so as to maintain an umbrella policy. It is about $300 a year.

So, for my car, if It just sat in my garage all year without moving (because it was a second car) .. then it'd only cost me about $400 a year.

Finally, you will appreciate this as a dog owner.

I used to have a White German Shepherd who shedded profusely.

At the time I owned a 1984 Honda Accord and a 1986 Honda Accord. The second one was much nicer than the first.

Therefore I'd keep the second one unregistered during the winter so as to not subject it to the harsh New England winters and used the other car exclusively during that time. However, when both were registered and my White German Shepherd was going somewhere with me (which was frequent) we'd use the 1984 so as to keep the dog hair out of the 1986. I used to refer to that 1984 as her car.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by vnatale » Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:35 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:19 pm


Define long distance. Tesla has fast-charge stations all over the country, right off the interstate highways. My car has the lowest range of all of their vehicles. Some of the more expensive models can go 350 miles without recharging. You can't even do that with a gasoline car.

A friend with the same car I have drove from Chicago to Maine and back with no issues (other than wasting time charging, if you consider that an issue).


Your first assertion might be disputed by this?

https://choosemycar.com/resources/choos ... nk-mileage

The top ten go between 532 and 594 miles on one tank of gas.

And, it would be a big-time issue for me wasting time charging as, in general, I hate being in a car traveling because I am not able to do any of things I'm thinking I want to do. Instead, I'm restricted to either listening to something or talking on the telephone. Not too many other options.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by vnatale » Sun Feb 13, 2022 7:37 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Sun Feb 13, 2022 3:20 pm


If you have to ask, you can't afford one.

Also, the cost of ownership should be based on the cost per mile.

Most people don't keep cars more than 5 years or so. The group here is atypical.


I could easily afford one with zero effect on my lifestyle. However, I'd consider it a terrible use of my money ... money that could be used on things of far more value to me or others in the world.

At this point in their development Electric Vehicles seem fairly much an elitist option, not for the masses.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by I Shrugged » Mon Feb 14, 2022 9:36 am

Workers at the Tesla factory need to eat too. Same as the ones building yachts and private jets.
User avatar
vnatale
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 9423
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2019 8:56 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by vnatale » Sat Feb 26, 2022 12:16 pm

Desert wrote:
Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:04 am

Projects like these will make those EV's more environmentally friendly:

TerraPower recently announced plans to build its Natrium reactor near a retiring coal plant in Kemmerer, Wyoming. This is an incredible opportunity for the state, which currently generates almost 90% of its electricity generation from fossil fuels. The Natrium design represents the future of advanced nuclear reactor technology and is well-suited to provide clean and efficient power to communities across the United States, including the Mountain West.

https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/next ... ng-wyoming


After having been anti-nuclear for nearly 50 years .... over the last year or so I have come over to the other side.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 14232
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: synagogue of Satan
Contact:

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by dualstow » Sat Feb 26, 2022 5:01 pm

BELTSVILLE, Md.— The U.S. is far behind its global rivals in the race for energy supremacy in a low-carbon world. To catch up, it is pinning its hopes on companies such as Ion Storage Systems, a next-generation battery company started in a University of Maryland chemistry lab with a $574,275 federal grant.

At a new factory outside of Washington, D.C., Ion Storage will be among the first companies in the U.S. to produce a new kind of faster-charging, longer-lasting battery. The company’s batteries also don’t catch fire; combustibility is a problem that has bedeviled the industry’s batteries for years. The U.S. government and private investors have poured cash into battery startups hoping to catch up to the Chinese, Japanese and South Korean companies that dominate battery manufacturing. The goal is to leapfrog their rivals with better technology.
...
https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-bets-o ... 1645876802
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
User avatar
I Shrugged
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 2062
Joined: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:35 pm

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by I Shrugged » Sun Feb 27, 2022 9:12 am

Exciting new battery. How many times have we heard that before? Believe it when you see it.
User avatar
dualstow
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 14232
Joined: Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:18 am
Location: synagogue of Satan
Contact:

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by dualstow » Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:02 pm

I don't know, guys. A battery that doesn't catch fire sounds like a step in the right direction to me.
Sam Bankman-Fried sentenced to 25 years
User avatar
Mark Leavy
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1950
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:20 pm
Location: US Citizen, Permanent Traveler

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:34 pm

The key to any battery technology is energy density and the ability to rapidly release that energy. Ergo, a bomb. Flammable or not.
User avatar
Xan
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 4393
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2012 1:51 pm

Re: Electric Vehicles and Tires

Post by Xan » Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:36 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sun Feb 27, 2022 3:34 pm
The key to any battery technology is energy density and the ability to rapidly release that energy. Ergo, a bomb. Flammable or not.
That applies to any fuel source. We drive around with tanks full of energy-dense gasoline which is poised to release that energy rapidly. There are going to be dangers with any fuel source.
Post Reply