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Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Mon Jul 25, 2022 10:37 am

Question for Kbg?

Do you agree with the concluding sentence?

Some view themselves as civilian extensions of the state national guard. Many are amateur gun enthusiasts with a sprinkling of former members of the military or law enforcement. A terrorist group using militia activities as a cover can compartmentalize itself like a Special Forces unit. In the past, most right-wing extremist groups that turned to violence were made up of poorly formed cells with limited capacity or operational military knowledge. They were quickly discovered, usually because they bragged of their acts to others. However, many veterans of the military now offer training classes in marksmanship, planning, and improvised skills for amateur groups. These militia groups may be amateurs, but they could demonstrate devastating capability if not detected in time.


Excerpt From: Malcolm W. Nance. “THEY WANT TO KILL AMERICANS: THE MILITIAS, TERRORISTS, AND DERANGED IDEOLOGY OF THE TRUMP INSURGENCY.” St. Martin's Press
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by Kbg » Wed Jul 27, 2022 12:53 pm

Vinny,

Certainly the below could be going on (highly likely IS going on) and if they are getting training they would likely be more effective if they decide to commit a violent act than they would be otherwise.

However, I personally think this whole line of thought is a propaganda point of the left which is way overblown and here's why.

Most of the guys doing this are old fat jokes of a human being or if they aren't in the over the hill gang then they likely would not have made it too far in a serious military/military outfit. After Jan 6, no one should doubt these guys and gals can't make a splash if they chose to...but at the end of the day they were unsuccessful and if there would have been serious force in place with a willingness to shoot if necessary then they wouldn't have got up the Capitol steps.

Secondly, and I've made this point a lot...a good military has to be good at a whole bunch of stuff beyond squad/platoon level tactics.

It's really a matter of scale and what can be accomplished...I just don't see the militias as a serious take over the country kinda threat. I see them at their worse impact as being able to cause limited death and destruction and after which a huge hammer they could not deal with via the militarily or via law enforcement would come raining down on them with the effects being like a strong wave taking beach trash out to sea. Finally, notice that with these groups (to my knowledge) no one who was senior and activity duty is ever a part of them. The most senior guys always seem to be ex sergeants and company grade officers who were in the National Guard. (There are a few exceptions, but I've not seen any in a leadership position...see fat old guy paragraph.) The point being...they weren't very good when competing in the big leagues of a professionalized military.

Here's something most don't see and which I guarantee is the case...for every one militia person there are hundreds of former vets and intelligence professionals who swore the oath to support and defend the constitution and take orders from legally appointed superiors...and would be happy to dawn the uniform again and take these guys out if needed.

I wish I could remember where I read this news article but there was a line in it that went something like this regarding the capitol hill intruders...these guys have no idea what is about to hit them. They are going to feel the wrath of thousands of security professionals who are really pissed off this happened in their country.

Nixon coined the term "Quiet Americans" and I can tell you there are huge numbers of Quiet Americans keeping us safe from bad guys federally and locally. They love their country, it's who they are and what they do...and they're pretty dang good at what they do.
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Wed Jul 27, 2022 1:45 pm

KBG,

Thanks for that excellent, expansive response. All understandable.


Your reaction to this excerpt from the same book? From your response above it seems that you have already minimized some of what is below?


“The particular threat of military or government officials participating in a future insurgency is the vast array of operational and organizational experience they bring to the table. Whereas civilians may watch videos, read books and manuals, and even practice shooting in a tactical environment, it is the experience of planning a vast series of sequential acts, knowing where to actually go, and accepting the logistical challenges of an austere behind-the-lines environment while being hunted by a numerically superior opposition that sets apart members of the armed forces. Participation in service gives the member something civilians generally lack: discipline. Not tolerating people who lack character and decency in the ranks gives the professional force an edge. This discipline is difficult to transfer to a gaggle of highly agitated armed people without military service.”


Excerpt From: Malcolm W. Nance. “THEY WANT TO KILL AMERICANS: THE MILITIAS, TERRORISTS, AND DERANGED IDEOLOGY OF THE TRUMP INSURGENCY.” St. Martin's Press
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by Kbg » Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:44 pm

No, I think I hit it directly with this line of my response: It's really a matter of scale and what can be accomplished.

If you have access/are a twitter person there is a retired 3-star general Mark Hertling (who is also a CNN commentator) who posts on the Russia/Ukraine war and does a really good job of explaining in layman's terms the higher "art" of military operations and all the things you need to be able to do that are way beyond pulling a trigger on something. I'm sure you could find some of his CNN stuff on YouTube if you search for it.

Military operations at scale are really, really, really complex.

The first time I ever participated in a large scale force exercise (all virtual) I must of asked 10 times...Can we really do this!? The old heads would just smile and say yes we can.
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Wed Jul 27, 2022 8:28 pm

Kbg wrote:
Wed Jul 27, 2022 2:44 pm

No, I think I hit it directly with this line of my response: It's really a matter of scale and what can be accomplished.

If you have access/are a twitter person there is a retired 3-star general Mark Hertling (who is also a CNN commentator) who posts on the Russia/Ukraine war and does a really good job of explaining in layman's terms the higher "art" of military operations and all the things you need to be able to do that are way beyond pulling a trigger on something. I'm sure you could find some of his CNN stuff on YouTube if you search for it.

Military operations at scale are really, really, really complex.

The first time I ever participated in a large scale force exercise (all virtual) I must of asked 10 times...Can we really do this!? The old heads would just smile and say yes we can.


Thanks for this.

Went to Twitter and saw that I'd already put Mark Hertling on two of my lists. Just now read several of his latest tweets.
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:41 am

I finished reading the book last night. I did, though, key in on one chapter that I have further questions to you, KBG, regarding your opinion of how true you believe any of the book's assertions to be.

Here is the next excerpt from it:

“Over the long term, no civilian force can stave off the government, but that is only in a sustained fight. Insurgency is fighting like guerillas, hitting and massing firepower only when needed, and then blending back into the population. The World War II Office of Strategic Services, the OSS, emphasized the doctrine “Surprise. Kill. Vanish.” This is where TITUS could excel. Small groups of armed individuals operating from a network of allies and supporters using prepositioned ammunition and weapons.

As the insurgents successfully attack police or military units, they can steal more sophisticated equipment. Most insurgent groups plan to raid government armories for automatic rifles, heavy machine guns, explosives, and ammunition. In a preinsurgency phase, ammunition can be stolen from gun stores. Alternatively, theft of logistics trains is a successful method of resupply. In 2014, thirty-two high explosives were hijacked from a train shipping 40mm grenades for the Mk19 grenade-launching machine gun in Atlanta on its way to a U.S. Army depot in Letterkenny, Pennsylvania. Most of the bombs were recovered, but the theft revealed that cars marked with explosives warnings were an obvious target. In 2021, over ten pounds of C4 high-explosive bricks were stolen from the U.S. Marine Corps base in Twentynine Palms, California.

Acquiring guns and improvised explosives is only one aspect of conducting insurgent or terrorist activities. The terrorists must be skillful in basic marksmanship and have the ability to fire and then move with accuracy to stay alive. Tactical training camps are a common place for the average militiaman or militiaman or terrorist wannabe to gain basic skills. These militia camps include simple weekends at the shooting range, where guns are fired in fixed-target distances. Often these devolve into alcohol-fueled shoot fests with no serious training, but the participants do spend time sharpening their extremist views and planning disruption operations.

Most highly organized militias have a military-style curriculum based on the U.S. Army’s Soldier’s Manual of Common Tasks, which provides the basic skills needed to graduate boot camp. This includes marksmanship, grenade usage, ambushes, urban combat, tactical movement, ambush drills, and navigation, followed by weekend field-training exercises (FTX) based on the experience of the former military members. Most militia FTXs are short-duration affairs during which the members “patrol” their "sectors” for a few hours and conduct reconnaissance on roadways they suspect the government may use. Usually, they end their FTX by carrying out a simulated ambush using live ammunition. It ends with them shooting a "mad minute,” when every round is fired, and then withdrawing to a secure location for beer and barbecue. Granted, many of these training sessions are nothing more than LARPing with real bullets for out-of-shape blue-collar workers, but the bullets and rifles they fire are as real as the experience they gain, however slight.

The Atomwaffen Division terrorist cell often trained together in small teams on private land. At these so-called hate camps, they practiced shooting and hand-to-hand combat and reinforced their neo-Nazi beliefs. They acquired the most modern tactical skills from their military members, including from a U.S. Marine.
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by Kbg » Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:55 pm

Vinny,

To be clear, committed people with training and weapons can definitely cause mayhem, death and destruction. I wouldn't even argue this is not the case. Tim McVeigh demonstrated that.

But here's some larger perspective...I heard this on a podcast a couple year's back and I'm glad I could find this article to give you the gist of what I listened to. (Pretty sure it was a Dan Carlin podcast)

https://time.com/5434756/letter-bombs-u ... terrorism/

As a general rule, to be an actual insurgent or terrorist you have to be internally highly committed to the cause and be willing to leave your former life behind. And normally, folks who get to that state were indoctrinated heavily or had a personal experience that pushed them to radicalization...and you have to be willing to act in that capacity.

Where I live there are people who I would label more as survivalists than militiamen and they do a lot of the same types of things. Doomer types and there is a big social aspect to it. Whether or not they are actually dangerous I've no idea but most do not strike me as dangerous. LOL they would probably fit in well here if they were the sit at a computer and type kinda people.

I'm wandering all over the place in this response...so bottom line: If we start to see a lot of hit and run types of events (murder, bombs, building explosions etc.) I'll start to worry, but until then I think we are ok.
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:42 am

Kbg wrote:
Sat Jul 30, 2022 6:55 pm

Vinny,

To be clear, committed people with training and weapons can definitely cause mayhem, death and destruction. I wouldn't even argue this is not the case. Tim McVeigh demonstrated that.

But here's some larger perspective...I heard this on a podcast a couple year's back and I'm glad I could find this article to give you the gist of what I listened to. (Pretty sure it was a Dan Carlin podcast)

https://time.com/5434756/letter-bombs-u ... terrorism/

As a general rule, to be an actual insurgent or terrorist you have to be internally highly committed to the cause and be willing to leave your former life behind. And normally, folks who get to that state were indoctrinated heavily or had a personal experience that pushed them to radicalization...and you have to be willing to act in that capacity.

Where I live there are people who I would label more as survivalists than militiamen and they do a lot of the same types of things. Doomer types and there is a big social aspect to it. Whether or not they are actually dangerous I've no idea but most do not strike me as dangerous. LOL they would probably fit in well here if they were the sit at a computer and type kinda people.

I'm wandering all over the place in this response...so bottom line: If we start to see a lot of hit and run types of events (murder, bombs, building explosions etc.) I'll start to worry, but until then I think we are ok.


Thanks for the, as usual, substantial response. I do have some other excerpts I will be soliciting your opinion regarding them.
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:58 am

Here are the final (short) excerpts for your take on them. Do any of the below raise your concern level? I know that you have several times stated what is in #7.

1)

“Survival skills are also necessary to a well-grounded insurgent group. Rural and urban field skills such as armed evasion—escaping contact with an enemy alone or as a small group—are emphasized, since insurgents believe the entire nation is an area “behind enemy lines. Woodland survival and common fieldcraft, also known as “being good in the woods,” are also critical, though in my estimation many have little experience beyond camping next to a fire with a good sleeping bag while drinking beers. Apart from the few military members who have real experience, militias are not well suited for long periods in the field while being hunted by a hostile force. Most evasion movements for extremists consist of going from a known point of support like a base camp to supporting citizens. Fieldcraft, living off the land and moving undetected, are core skills that rural militias will use to their advantage if forced into an evasion scenario in swamp, high country, or mountainous terrain. Terrorist bomber Eric Robert Rudolph was so proficient in surviving and evading law enforcement in the rural North Carolina mountains that he staved off capture for nearly five years. It was his inability to acquire food in the long term that caught up with him. He was finally caught by a young sheriff deputy while scrounging in trash cans

2)

We also cannot discount the potential of skilled ex­Special Forces, navy SEALs, and/or civilian scuba divers conducting subsurface attacks to make the land and maritime realm a massive potential target. Militias or terrorists led by these highly trained commandos could carry out any range of direct actions using all of the resources identified in this chapter. They are highly motivated leaders and can turn weekend warriors into motivated terrorists, even if the results may not be professional. They can wreak havoc and build experience.

3)

Simple advanced intelligence and surveillance technologies are also widely available for the insurgent. Surveillance does not require advanced street-level skills when a two-hundred-dollar quadcopter drone can do the work and bring back high-definition video. The open-source intelligence capability of Google Earth combined with PowerPoint can provide an amateur insurgent with intelligence and planning tools the U.S. military did not have fifteen years ago.

4)

Virtually all of these new technologies can be moved, positioned autonomously by GPS programming, and detonated using a mobile phone. None of this is sophisticated, and insurgents from Yemen to Somalia to Afghanistan are building these technologies in basements and mud huts in nonpermissive war zones. Imagine the ingenuity that could be harnessed for terrorism in our soft, lazy, permissive America

5)

All of these incidents were rudimentary attacks. A real insurgency could bring in sophisticated planning using multidimensional axes of attack. Our fictional scenario showed a simultaneous national disruption campaign using multiple attacks. The goal is to instill fear and show the central government is weak. A campaign to set fire to oil and gas refineries would dry up gasoline and diesel supplies. If struck by dozens of remote kamikaze drone airplanes, they could take months to repair. The impact on major population centers, often assumed to be liberal enemies, would contribute to the “accelerationist” mindset of creating chaos to topple existing power structures.

6)

Ambushes, assassinations, assaults and beatings, arson, vandalism, desecration of places of worship, drive-by shootings, carjackings, robberies, and thefts are all part of the basic criminal portfolio available to virtually all white supremacist domestic extremist groups. Using these tactics, coupled with imagination and a devil-may-care attitude, TITUS paramilitaries could provoke a real civil war. Imagine an insurgency in America where the lessons learned by ISIS while fighting the Iraqi army, Russian separatists while fighting in Ukraine, and the Túpac Amaru while fighting the Peruvian army are brought to bear in a campaign of violence against Americans by Americans. Which of the domestic extremists have these basic combat capabilities, and how soon could they implement a campaign to rain terror down on their own countrymen and women? All of them. Given the right motivation, they could Make America Burn Again at their will.

7)

Another direct-action option is aggressive, high-profile arrests. Well over four hundred insurrectionists and counting have been arrested since January 6. They are usually confronted by a heavily armed SWAT team. These arrests are smash hits on social media. Weapons and gear-heavy militarized armed takedowns are terms TITUS understands … and fears. When insurgents are rolled up individually, it sends a powerful message to other militia members and prospective followers that the legitimate government has the legal ability to detain, try, and imprison people who incite rebellion. If they offer armed resistance or want to test their ability at close-quarters combat, they will find out the meaning of the SWAT motto, “Speed, surprise and violence of action.
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by Kbg » Sun Jul 31, 2022 10:49 pm

I agree with all and I really liked #7. :-)

At least with folks I run with via social media who I knew from my former life, we worry way more about the fractiousness and contention in society than this stuff. My generation spent a butt load of time in the Middle East and we've all seen societies up close who tend to settle difficult issues with violence. It's not a good thing
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Sun Aug 14, 2022 2:52 pm

KBG!

You are MY official military expert!

Several minutes ago I went to the World II section of my military history library and chose this book to read.

A World at Arms: A Global History of World War II 2nd Edition
Gerhard L. Weinberg

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/0521618266/ ... l_huc_item

It IS a long book - nearly 1,200 pages. That led me to go to Amazon to see what others said about it before I decided to invest that much time in one book.

Seems extremely worthwhile as it has 147 reviews, averaging 4+ stars.

You ever come across in it all your military history studies?

I do now note that mine is a first edition (1994) while a second edition came out 11 years later in 2005. Have no idea how much the content changed in the second edition.

But this review seemed to be an extremely ringing review of the book, particularly since this reviewer read this 1,200 page book THREE times!


The Greatest WWII Book ever written.
Reviewed in the United States on August 27, 2021
Gerhard Weinberg is without a doubt, and this is coming from a person with a bookcase full of only WWII History books from all realms, the foremost historian of World War II. While this book may not be any easy "read" for those without a good general knowledge of the subject - "A World at Arms" is a Masterpiece none the less. I think for a couple of reasons:

1) Although it is an amazing 1,200 pages, every page is a complete summary of a major on near major event, occurrence, or incident. If one could imagine an entire Encyclopedia of 100,000 pages on WWII, this book is its summary.
2) Weinberg brings 2nd, 3rd, and 4th degree explanations, incites, reasons, and common sense, to all major questions and again occurrences that happened - that I have read from NO ONE else.

The only drawback I have is that the maps are very poor for his explanations - those in the back of the book. However, I do realize that you can't put very large maps in a book, so I just went and bought a colorful WWII maps booklet. Problem solved.

I've read this now 3 times, and could see how someone could now teach a class on WWII, were they to read this book. Not because I'm a teacher, but because this book is so thorough. I very highly recommend this book. - Eric Olmstead - Selah, WA.
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by Kbg » Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:46 am

V,

I can't really comment on whether it is good or not and at 1200 pages the author better be a very good writer.

It may be an excellent book, but WW2 is a huge topic and I'm a little doubtful anyone could pull off writing a really excellent book on the entire war. It's just too big and complex for any one person to really grasp it all with any depth. Obviously a high level sketch would be doable, but you probably wouldn't learn a whole lot more than you already know unless you know hardly anything about WW2.

I think one of the best WW2 books on the Pacific is Hirohito's War by Francis Pike. It is excellent and does a superb job of covering the entire war, not just the American centric version of the war.

Antony Beevor's books on the European side are very good but he doesn't have a single book on that theater. Rick Atkinson has an excellent series on WW2 that is highly readable but is completely the American Army's experience. In sum, Beevor for Russian/German east front, Atkinson for western front American/German. Beevor's Stalingrad is considered one of the best books ever in all the WW2 literature.

Two excellent personal accounts are

Guy Sajer's The Forgotten solider

E.B. Sledge's With the Old Breed

If you like or are interested in this stuff, I'm pretty confident you will enjoy and not regret the purchase of any of the above.
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:12 pm

Kbg wrote:
Mon Aug 15, 2022 8:46 am

V,

I can't really comment on whether it is good or not and at 1200 pages the author better be a very good writer.

It may be an excellent book, but WW2 is a huge topic and I'm a little doubtful anyone could pull off writing a really excellent book on the entire war. It's just too big and complex for any one person to really grasp it all with any depth. Obviously a high level sketch would be doable, but you probably wouldn't learn a whole lot more than you already know unless you know hardly anything about WW2.

I think one of the best WW2 books on the Pacific is Hirohito's War by Francis Pike. It is excellent and does a superb job of covering the entire war, not just the American centric version of the war.

Antony Beevor's books on the European side are very good but he doesn't have a single book on that theater. Rick Atkinson has an excellent series on WW2 that is highly readable but is completely the American Army's experience. In sum, Beevor for Russian/German east front, Atkinson for western front American/German. Beevor's Stalingrad is considered one of the best books ever in all the WW2 literature.

Two excellent personal accounts are

Guy Sajer's The Forgotten solider

E.B. Sledge's With the Old Breed

If you like or are interested in this stuff, I'm pretty confident you will enjoy and not regret the purchase of any of the above.


Finished the book tonight! The author is / was a brilliant writer! I have read many, many, many books on World War II, including several on the same topic, e.g., Pearl Harbor. So I knew a lot going into it. However, the book was almost all things I had never previously known and he did not have that many pages on the well known things, again e.g., Pearl Harbor.

I'd rate the book A+++++++++++. A book well worth rereading in a studying fashion. I read the 1990 version. I may buy the 2013 version to read to see if he has any new nuggets in that one that are not in the 1990 version I just read.

Of the authors you name above ... I have read:

Antony Beevor The Fall of Berlin 1945

Here is one "nugget" I read in this book that I was astounded to read. The extent of Japan's plan for its new empire. Did you know this / ever seen such a detailed list? This is just one of the many, many examples of items he had in this book which were completely new to me.

Capture.JPG
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by Xan » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:14 pm

Kind of strange to plan to take over Alaska and Washington. Why stop at the Oregon and Idaho borders? I guess they figured that was far enough?
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:26 pm

Xan wrote:
Wed Aug 31, 2022 9:14 pm

Kind of strange to plan to take over Alaska and Washington. Why stop at the Oregon and Idaho borders? I guess they figured that was far enough?


That was the most shocking part to me that they had designs on our country!

I had known about the balloons that they sent over to our country in an attempt to put our forests on fire. But they had no seeming success.

This was one case in which censorship actually played a positive role in helping us win a war.

The Japanese stopped sending the balloons over because they never read of any successes in our newspapers. The reason why they never read any of it was because it was all censored out of the newspapers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fu-Go_balloon_bomb
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by Kbg » Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:47 am

Looks like you read Pike, correct?

Yeah, it is a really good book and I think he nailed the bigger picture of the Asian/Pacific war...it didn't start at Pearl Harbor, Singapore and the Philippines in Dec of 41.

The more I've come to understand how the Japanese fought I completely get why US soldiers and marines despised their opponents and I have very little military admiration for their admirals and generals. They just flat out didn't care about human life whether it was the peoples they took over, their prisoners or their own servicemen. They pretty much define nihilism for me.

They certainly didn't lack ego did they. :-) For the most part, I'd give Japan a D to an F in grand strategy during that time period. They did some really, really stupid stuff. Once the Aussies and the Yanks figured out they could beat Japanese infantry in the Solomons, game over. On the naval side the not so well known story is how the Japanese didn't appreciate the power of submarines.
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Thu Sep 01, 2022 9:39 am

Kbg wrote:
Thu Sep 01, 2022 8:47 am

Looks like you read Pike, correct?

Yeah, it is a really good book and I think he nailed the bigger picture of the Asian/Pacific war...it didn't start at Pearl Harbor, Singapore and the Philippines in Dec of 41.

The more I've come to understand how the Japanese fought I completely get why US soldiers and marines despised their opponents and I have very little military admiration for their admirals and generals. They just flat out didn't care about human life whether it was the peoples they took over, their prisoners or their own servicemen. They pretty much define nihilism for me.

They certainly didn't lack ego did they. :-) For the most part, I'd give Japan a D to an F in grand strategy during that time period. They did some really, really stupid stuff. Once the Aussies and the Yanks figured out they could beat Japanese infantry in the Solomons, game over. On the naval side the not so well known story is how the Japanese didn't appreciate the power of submarines.


No, from my book reading records I could not see that I'd read the Pike book.

Had you read any of the Gordon Prange books? These are the two that I read. Both excellent:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NGZB2GW/?r ... l_huc_item

At Dawn We Slept: The Untold Story of Pearl Harbor; Revised Edition Kindle Edition

At 7:53 a.m., December 7, 1941, America's national consciousness and confidence were rocked as the first wave of Japanese warplanes took aim at the U.S. Naval fleet stationed at Pearl Harbor. As intense and absorbing as a suspense novel, At Dawn We Slept is the unparalleled and exhaustive account of the Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor. It is widely regarded as the definitive assessment of the events surrounding one of the most daring and brilliant naval operations of all time. Through extensive research and interviews with American and Japanese leaders, Gordon W. Prange has written a remarkable historical account of the assault that-sixty years later-America cannot forget.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00JOW20SU/?r ... l_huc_item

Pearl Harbor: The Verdict of History

In the predawn hours of December 7, 1941, a Japanese carrier group sailed toward Hawaii. A few minutes before 8:00 a.m., they received the order to rain death on the American base at Pearl Harbor, sinking dozens of ships, destroying hundreds of airplanes, and taking the lives of over two thousand servicemen. The carnage lasted only two hours, but more than seventy years later, terrible questions remain unanswered.

How did the Japanese slip past the American radar? Why were the Hawaiian defense forces so woefully underprepared? What, if anything, did American intelligence know before the first Japanese pilot shouted “Tora! Tora! Tora!”? In this incomparable volume, Pearl Harbor experts Gordon W. Prange, Donald M. Goldstein, and Katherine V. Dillon tackle dozens of thorny issues in an attempt to determine who was at fault for one of the most shocking military disasters in history.


The book I recently read goes over all (and more) of you describe above regarding the Japanese.

Of how colonized countries were initially happy to be taken over by the Japanese until they realized that they were even worse off.

Thought Pearl Harbor was in itself a success ... it was not for the long-term.

The Japanese also did misuse their submarines.

I recommend you read the 1,200 page book and guarantee even you will come away with a lot you did not previously know.
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:23 pm

Am about to start this one:

A True History of the United States: Indigenous Genocide, Racialized Slavery, Hyper-Capitalism, Militarist Imperialism and Other Overlooked Aspects of American Exceptionalism (Truth to Power)

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B08HL93XGK/ ... l_huc_item

This is the book's author: "Daniel A. Sjursen is a retired U.S. Army officer, contributing editor at Antiwar.com, senior fellow at the Center for International Policy (CIP), and director of the Eisenhower Media Network (EMN). His work has appeared in the NY Times, LA Times, The Nation, Huff Post, The Hill, Salon, The American Conservative, Mother Jones, ScheerPost and Tom Dispatch, among other publications. He served combat tours in Iraq and Afghanistan and later taught history at West Point. He is the author of a memoir and critical analysis of the Iraq War, "Ghostriders of Baghdad: Soldiers, Civilians, and the Myth of the Surge" and "Patriotic Dissent: America in the Age of Endless War." Along with fellow vet Chris "Henri" Henriksen, he co-hosts the podcast “Fortress on a Hill.” Follow him on Twitter @SkepticalVet He lives with his two sons in Lawrence, KS."


This book or the author known to you?
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:32 pm

From the Preface of the book:

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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Mon Sep 12, 2022 9:34 pm

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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Tue Sep 13, 2022 8:36 pm

If there was a higher grade than A+ ..... this book would get it!

A sampling:

Blood Has Been Shed: From Lexington to Bunker Hill
In chapter 4 we left our anguished — and hopelessly divided — American colonists on the verge of rebellion, just twelve years after the defeat of France in the Seven Years’ War. With the benefit of hindsight, revolution appears all but inevitable, yet nothing was predetermined. Some spark was needed to engulf the continent in bloodshed. It would come in Massachusetts.

On the eve of war the British, like so many regular imperial armies before them, believed they could intimidate the rebels with a display of impressive uniforms, lockstep marching, and a basic show of force. In and around Boston the British sought to seize large stores of colonial arms and, in that strategic vein, marched out of the city toward the village of Concord in April 1775. They bet wrong: the overt show of military force actually raised tensions, radicalized the populace, and caused conflict.

Besides, seizing centralized armories would not in itself work in America, due to one characteristic of the colonists: they were armed. Consider, for a moment, the radical ramifications of an armed populace. The Americans were unique in that, unlike Englishmen, Scots, or Irishmen, nearly all white men were gun owners. The tools were there. It seemed war would come eventually; it was a matter of when and where.

At about 4:00 a.m. on April 19, 1775, the British regulars, on the road to Concord, ran into a paltry colonial show of force: seventy or so militiamen had gathered — with muskets — on the Lexington town green. A British officer ordered them to disperse. They did not. No one knows who fired first, but it was the seasoned British regulars who fired last, at least for the moment. When the smoke cleared, several colonists — English subjects — lay dead, more were wounded, and the rest had fled. The road to Concord lay open, and the British took it.

Then, on the way back to their base in Boston, something happened. Colonists from neighboring towns, using hit-and-run tactics on home turf they knew thoroughly, inflicted hundreds of casualties on the withdrawing British redcoats. It was a bloody day, and it changed the course of American history.
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Wed Sep 14, 2022 9:20 pm

What do you know of the War of 1812?


Perception and Reality: Remembering the War of 1812
[The War of 1812] has revived, with added luster the renown which brightened the morning of our independence: it has called forth and organized the dormant resources of the [American] empire: it has tried and vindicated our republican institutions…which consists in the well earned respect of the world.

— “A Republican citizen of Baltimore” writing in a newspaper (1815)

Still, perhaps inevitably, both sides would claim a victory of sorts. Nationalist sentiment exploded among ascendant American Republicans, who claimed they had won a “second revolution” and smitten an empire. The decisive victory at the Battle of New Orleans, fought after the treaty had been negotiated, gave Americans the impression of victory. Since the end of the Napoleonic Wars made the issues of impressment and neutrals’ rights moot, the Republicans could also claim victory on the seas — even though the British agreed to nothing of the sort in the Treaty of Ghent. To a fervently patriotic American majority, the war seemed to vindicate both the nation’s independence and its republicanism. Indeed, more American towns and counties (fifty-seven) are now named for President Madison than any other president — including George Washington!

Canadians, too, claimed a victory and developed a new nationalism and origin myth around their collective defeat of the American invaders. Americans may know and care little about the War of 1812, but not so the Canadians. In Canada the war is widely seen as a pivotal, patriotic event, a noble defense of the northland against marauding American invaders. The British, well, they were mostly just glad all these wars were over; they never gave much attention to the American sideshow in the first place. From their perspective, they had punished the petulant Americans (even burning their capital!) and conceded nothing at the negotiating table.

So ended and so was remembered an utterly peculiar conflict.


It was a dumb war, in retrospect: unnecessary and ill advised. At best the War of 1812 resulted in a draw that cost the lives of many thousands; a draw that destroyed any hope of Indian autonomy east of the Mississippi. Still, like most wars, this conflict stirred up patriotism and jingoism, among Americans and Canadians. War, many politicians (usually miles away from the fighting) believe, can be a regenerative act, renewing the spirit of patriotism and uniting competing factions. That is a myth. It is almost never this way. Wars tend to be messy, divisive, and inconclusive, and that was especially true of this conflict. Things are lost when a nation embarks on combat: civil liberty at home, human empathy at the front, all sense of realism and proportion in the combatants’ capitals.

American mythmakers — two centuries’ worth of them — have spun the War of 1812 into a nationalistic yarn. They have focused on the victories of Andrew Jackson, ignored the US debacles in Canada, and turned an obscure song set to the tune of a British drinking ballad — “The Star-Spangled Banner” — into a national anthem. How ironic, then, that the anthem, a war song — which recently stirred up so much controversy on football Sundays — emerged from a conflict that should never have been fought and that we didn’t really win.10
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by Mountaineer » Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:38 am

.

Vinny, when you finish these books you keep excerpting voluminous quotes from, PLEASE do not move on to 1619 Project material. ;)

.
DNA has its own language (code), and language requires intelligence. There is no known mechanism by which matter can give birth to information, let alone language. It is unreasonable to believe the world could have happened by chance.
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Re: Question for Kbg?

Post by vnatale » Thu Sep 15, 2022 7:44 am

Mountaineer wrote:
Thu Sep 15, 2022 5:38 am

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Vinny, when you finish these books you keep excerpting voluminous quotes from, PLEASE do not move on to 1619 Project material. ;)

.


No worries. I will NOT be reading any those materials!
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