Is the stick a dying art?

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glennds
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Is the stick a dying art?

Post by glennds » Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:05 am

I was traveling in the EU recently, and I went to rent a car in France. I ended up with a fun little 5 speed Citroen.
The guy at the rental place asked me three times if I was okay with a stick aka standard transmission. I asked him why he was going out of his way to confirm it. He told me most Americans don't even know how to drive a stick, and in fact they only keep automatic cars at the rental agency for Americans.

When I got home I asked around and here's what I found. Most people over a certain age (50-55) learned how to drive one at one point but it's been decades since they last did it and many would be reluctant to try it again, especially in a foreign country. Almost all people under 40 have no idea how to drive one. A car salesman told me most dealerships can't even provide a standard transmission unless you special order it and wait 6-12 weeks.

So is the ability to drive a stick a dying art among Americans? As long as all cars are automatic, I guess it doesn't matter. But if manual is common in the rest of the world, it could be a disadvantage not knowing how to drive one. Not to mention IMO it's a lot more fun.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by joypog » Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:36 am

Yes. I've heard it's now difficult to buy manual transmissions outside of sports packages.

When the kids go off to college I'm gonna get myself a little hatchback with a stick (again). But I'm in my mid 40's so at the tail end of your timeline....

Actually, maybe I'll get one in ten years when my daughter starts driving. I think it's a useful skill to have learned. For example my wife learned her first care on a stick, then drove auto for a decade years, but an half hour in an empty parking lot and she was back like a nothing happened.

Helps that Houston is about as flat as they come.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by glennds » Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:01 pm

Desert wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 11:45 am
Yeah, I think it's dying rapidly in the U.S. With the integration of engine controls with transmission controls, an automatic provides better fuel economy and performance. It's tough to argue for manual trans from any practical viewpoint.
From a pure performance standpoint, I've heard that the technology is better and faster at shifting than the best high performance human driver. But I don't think that refers to all automatics. Probably only the most high end high performance cars.

I assume lower cost of production is why manual is the standard in Europe? Maybe the insurance and liability environment in the US has some part in it too because after all, a manual requires (gulp) more driver skill.
Last edited by glennds on Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Xan
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by Xan » Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:04 pm

Definitely a shame. Folks don't know what they're missing out on. It's so much fun!

And, it's safer. I really believe it helps the driver to be engaged with driving. But then take for example my Honda minivan: from a dead stop, give it a little gas, just enough for it to decide to shift to 2nd. Then floor it. Absolutely nothing happens for probably 1.5 seconds. That's a long time if you're turning left across a highway, have maneuvered into position, and then need to give it the beans. It's frankly very dangerous. The dealer says this is the expected behavior of the Honda transmission.

I really wish it were a stick like my other car. Then it wouldn't try to kill me.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by joypog » Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:48 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:04 pm
Honda minivan
ODYSSEY OWNERS UNITE!
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by flyingpylon » Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:04 pm

Xan wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:04 pm
Definitely a shame. Folks don't know what they're missing out on. It's so much fun!

And, it's safer. I really believe it helps the driver to be engaged with driving. But then take for example my Honda minivan: from a dead stop, give it a little gas, just enough for it to decide to shift to 2nd. Then floor it. Absolutely nothing happens for probably 1.5 seconds. That's a long time if you're turning left across a highway, have maneuvered into position, and then need to give it the beans. It's frankly very dangerous. The dealer says this is the expected behavior of the Honda transmission.

I really wish it were a stick like my other car. Then it wouldn't try to kill me.
We can thank fuel mileage regulations for this sort of thing. My Mazda CX-5 is similar and I agree that's it's actually dangerous in certain situations. Fortunately the CX-5 also has a "sport" mode which makes it far more responsive and it can also be shifted manually if desired.

I had a few cars with manual transmissions back in the day and while they are fun, they can be a PITA in stop & go traffic.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by I Shrugged » Thu Jul 28, 2022 4:12 pm

Every time I feel nostalgic about driving a manual, I remember my creaky left knee.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by boglerdude » Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:15 pm

Got a bargain on a 2015 Cooper S from a Toyota dealer, sat on the lot too long. Online they sell for 5k more since there's a national pool of folks looking for manual.

I also dont like the "safety" feature of closing off the back of modern cars with huge C-pillars, and relying on backup/blind spot cameras.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by Mark Leavy » Thu Jul 28, 2022 5:58 pm

glennds wrote:
Thu Jul 28, 2022 12:01 pm

From a pure performance standpoint, I've heard that the technology is better and faster at shifting than the best high performance human driver. But I don't think that refers to all automatics. Probably only the most high end high performance cars.
I see this argument all of the time. And it may be true under some sort of pure measurement and testing scenario. But on the road, an automatic transmission can't read your mind and has to figure out your intentions when you punch on the gas or hit a steep grade. I, on the other hand, can read my mind very well, and drop down into 3rd from 5th just as I punch it to pass a car. Or I can see that I have long steep downgrade ahead and drop the gear so I don't have to ride the brakes. An automatic will have you hitting the brakes on and off down the whole hill. For long, rolling uphills, the automatic can't see the road like I can and it will be constantly shifting in and out of the wrong gears.

No comparison in real life. I've never owned anything other than a manual, and when I get a rental car (almost always automatic), I have to be very careful not to kill myself - and allow for much more reaction time while doing stupid, dangerous stuff.

When renting overseas, I'm about 50/50 on getting a manual or automatic. Driving on the left side of the road with a manual is a trip. I thought it would take awhile to get used to shifting with my left hand, but it just happens without any thought. Fortunately the clutch is still on the left side. I always get tricked up by the windshield wipers and blinkers on cars with right hand steering. Forever flipping on the wipers when I try to signal.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by vnatale » Thu Jul 28, 2022 6:52 pm

I drove a few manuals for many years.

In 2007, I was pursuing a car replacement and one used car I was looking at was a manual. At that point I'd not driven one for many, many, many years and I had some concern if I'd be able to drive it. But within the first minute it all came back.

One of the reasons why I liked having one was that it fit into my ultra-frugal lifestyle with a manual getting two or three more miles per gallon than its automatic counterpart.

However, I think somewhere also along that time period I'd been told that automatic transmission had progressed to such a point that they provided superior miles per gallon than their manual counterpart. So it ended up for me, as someone stated above, what was the point for owning one.

I also have read the above how one of the reasons would be to have more control over the car but I've never felt like I have not had sufficient control over my automatic cars.
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by whatchamacallit » Thu Jul 28, 2022 10:34 pm

I feel like this topic has come up here before.

Seems like there is some sort of correlation with manual transmissions and the permanent portfolio.

My daily driver has been a manual transmission since I was 18. I fear there will be a day you can't buy one new any longer.

It has nothing to do with performance or gas mileage. It is just plain fun.



https://www.rd.com/article/why-american ... automatic/
According to CarMax, 96 percent of Americans drive automatics. And, unsurprisingly given that statistic, people just aren’t buying cars with manual transmissions in the United States. According to Edmunds.com, in 2018, they made up just 2 percent of all vehicles sold.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by Mountaineer » Fri Jul 29, 2022 6:16 am

I too am a fan of manual transmissions (53 Buick, 66 and 67 VW Beetles, 70 VW Bus, 75 VW Rabbit, 79 Mazda RX-7, 80 Chevy Citation, 83 Nissan Stanza, 86 Toyota 4 Runner, 90 Honda Accord), but alas, my last few vehicles are automatics (95 and 96 Volvo 850s, and our current 2012 Volvo XC-60 and 2018 Audi Q5). As a side comment, the Volvos and Q5 automatic transmissions respond literally instantly when stepping on the go pedal, never have had any lag at all.

When I taught my kids to drive (Mazda RX-7), I would take them out to the steepest hill in town after a rain (wet road) and teach them to start without drifting backwards or laying a strip of rubber. I thought if they could master that, it would benefit them for the rest of their driving lives; it was cheating if they had to use the handbrake as an aid. Nothing like learning to expertly drive in West Virginia with all the 2 lane, hilly, curvy, and sometimes snow covered roads. ;D
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by Tortoise » Fri Jul 29, 2022 7:13 pm

I taught my first girlfriend how to drive stick on our first date. Had a blast and scored major points.

Get your minds out of the gutter, you reprobates!
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by Kbg » Sat Jul 30, 2022 7:04 pm

Having grown up rural and lived in some big cities...stick or no stick is completely dependent on what your daily drive is like.

A crowded bumper to bumper city interstate...no thank you.

A back country road with a couple of stop signs now and then...absolutely!
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by vnatale » Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:44 am

Am I correct in remembering that it was much more difficult to both eat and drive when driving a manual compared to an automatic? Had to keep having that right hand go to that device to change gears?
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by glennds » Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:48 am

vnatale wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:44 am
Am I correct in remembering that it was much more difficult to both eat and drive when driving a manual compared to an automatic? Had to keep having that right hand go to that device to change gears?
Trying to use a non hand-free cell phone would be pretty hard also. Texting would be out of the question.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by glennds » Sun Jul 31, 2022 7:50 am

Some cars offer both. I have a car that can be put into manual mode after which shifting happens manually using paddle shifters on the back of the steering wheel. No manually activated clutch though.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:33 am

My rental car last month was an automatic with paddle shifters. This was on the big island of Hawai'i and we had lots of steep hills and narrow winding roads. I hated it. You can't move directly from a high gear (say 5 or 7) to a low gear like 3. You have to step through the gears. Plus, you can't tell what gear you are in by putting your hand on the stick. You have to take your eyes off the road and look at the dash indicator.

Eventually, I got so pissed off at the thing I just left it in full automatic and dealt with riding the brakes down the hills and not ever trying to pass anyone.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by glennds » Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:52 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 11:33 am
My rental car last month was an automatic with paddle shifters. This was on the big island of Hawai'i and we had lots of steep hills and narrow winding roads. I hated it. You can't move directly from a high gear (say 5 or 7) to a low gear like 3. You have to step through the gears. Plus, you can't tell what gear you are in by putting your hand on the stick. You have to take your eyes off the road and look at the dash indicator.

Eventually, I got so pissed off at the thing I just left it in full automatic and dealt with riding the brakes down the hills and not ever trying to pass anyone.
Completely agree, paddle shifters are not the same.
What I hated about my manual rental car in Italy was that reverse and 1st were the same position, but you had to push the stick in to access reverse, and a beep would sound. It was too easy to try going into R and end up in 1st. I would have way preferred it if R had it's own dedicated position, usually far upper left or far lower right
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by Mark Leavy » Sun Jul 31, 2022 3:26 pm

glennds wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:52 pm
What I hated about my manual rental car in Italy was that reverse and 1st were the same position, but you had to push the stick in to access reverse, and a beep would sound.
Hah! That sounds like a horrible design. Must have been Fiat.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by Smith1776 » Sun Jul 31, 2022 4:36 pm

I remember when I was first learning to drive I learned on a stick shift. None of our family cars were automatic at the time (still aren't). Man, that was an experience.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by Kbg » Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:30 am

glennds wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:52 pm
What I hated about my manual rental car in Italy was that reverse and 1st were the same position, but you had to push the stick in to access reverse, and a beep would sound. It was too easy to try going into R and end up in 1st. I would have way preferred it if R had it's own dedicated position, usually far upper left or far lower right
The first time I ever drove one of these I was surprised that such a poor design ever saw the light of day.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by glennds » Mon Aug 01, 2022 12:22 pm

Kbg wrote:
Mon Aug 01, 2022 11:30 am
glennds wrote:
Sun Jul 31, 2022 12:52 pm
What I hated about my manual rental car in Italy was that reverse and 1st were the same position, but you had to push the stick in to access reverse, and a beep would sound. It was too easy to try going into R and end up in 1st. I would have way preferred it if R had it's own dedicated position, usually far upper left or far lower right
The first time I ever drove one of these I was surprised that such a poor design ever saw the light of day.
The car was a Skoda. Ever heard of it? I hadn't.
It's a car made in the Czech republic.
Honestly it was pretty good other than the gear shift pattern issue. I was just thankful it had Apple CarPlay. So long as a rental car comes with Car Play, I'm happy. It was just fantastic at navigating roundabouts and some truly bizarre road conditions.
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by Kbg » Mon Aug 01, 2022 2:04 pm

I think the one I drove was either a VW or Audi and it was about 4 years ago. IIRC the one I drove had an associated push button (switch) and it was pretty easy to mix up the two or forget which direction you had the car in. I imagine if I would have driven the car for longer (or was an owner) it probably wouldn't have been a big deal but the weird shifting combined with driving on the left side of the road made for some fun times. Luckily in first and reverse speed isn't an issue but I recall feeling lucky I didn't dent something while parking!
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Re: Is the stick a dying art?

Post by Xan » Mon Aug 01, 2022 8:57 pm

My Mustang has the "push to reverse" thing. Never been a problem. I think the issue is with a 6-speed there really isn't a good place to put another slot.
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