Super-Early Retirement Poll

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For those of you who retired before the age of 40, or plan to do so, what was/is your dating or marital situation?

Poll runs till Sat Nov 22, 2053 5:30 am

Single, not living with a girlfriend or boyfriend
2
29%
Single, living with a girlfriend or boyfriend
2
29%
Divorced without children
0
No votes
Divorced with children
1
14%
Married without children
2
29%
Married with children
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 7
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Tortoise
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Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by Tortoise » Mon Dec 05, 2011 11:45 am

It seems like a lot (if not most) of this forum's members have either retired very early or have a goal of doing so.

I've been married for a little over a year. My opinion is that the ideal situation for a person determined to retire super-early is to be single, without children, and not living with a girlfriend or boyfriend. When someone else depends heavily on you--financially, emotionally, whatever--meeting that person's various expectations can be extremely hard to do if you're spending almost every waking moment devoted to building a small business or living a spartan lifestyle to quickly accumulate a large nest egg. One possible exception to this might be if you're married without children, and your spouse is one of those very rare people who shares and supports your goal of super-early retirement 100% and is willing to put up with whatever that entails.

My own father practically lived at work when I was a child, and while I'm deeply appreciative of how his hard work kept us financially secure, his absence put a tremendous strain on our relationship.
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by Lone Wolf » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:12 pm

I find the whole "really early retirement" subject fascinating.  Not because I want to attempt this myself but rather because I think it's instructive to see how much people are able to accomplish.

Spending time with my kids is something I look forward to doing each and every day.  It's awesome and I'm reluctant to trade away even a single day of it.  Therefore, ultra-early retirement (either via not having a family or working unbelievably hard) is totally unappealing.

Yet I still feel like I can learn a lot from the Early Retirement Extreme crowd and others.  The overriding message is that saving money can be a real pleasure and that you really can make do with far less than you might imagine.  Maybe you can't retire at 35... but maybe you can take a lower-paying job that lets you come home for dinner on time.  Maybe you can't buy nothing but 100-pound bags of beans and rice for food... but maybe you can make going out to eat a special occasion.

To me, it's a lot like watching someone like Benedikt Magnússon deadlift 1000+ pounds.  I may not want to turn myself into a 375-pound hulk unable to tie his shoelaces without his face turning red. but maybe I can become a much, much stronger person than I am today.
Last edited by Lone Wolf on Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by stone » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:22 pm

Lone Wolf, I sometimes wonder whether adversity is simply what people are seeking. Perhaps people set some early retirement goal to make things tough rather than to make things nice ???

Some drug abuse also seems to me to be more about trying to create something to struggle with than "pleasure seeking" or whatever.
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by moda0306 » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:43 pm

I see the goal of saving to the extreme being less for an actual early retirement, per se, and more about getting myself financially to a place where I can make money the way I want to and at the pace I feel comfortable, and maybe NEVER fully retire because I like what I do.

Kind of roundabout logic but it works for me.
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by stone » Mon Dec 05, 2011 12:54 pm

moda, I know someone who is an "emeritus professor" (ie doesn't get paid anymore because he's elderly) and a total workaholic.
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by jackely » Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:29 pm

Lone Wolf wrote: I find the whole "really early retirement" subject fascinating.  Not because I want to attempt this myself but rather because I think it's instructive to see how much people are able to accomplish.
I've never had a goal of retiring "super-early" mostly because it would have been unrealistic raising a family of five and being married to a (now deceased) wife who spent money like a drunken sailor.

But even now, at age 62, my current goal is to retire super-late, if I can. My dad retired at 58 and he's still alive at 92, having spent 34 years in unproductive idleness with an exciting day being playing a game of cards with friends. Watching him live that way has left me with no desire to follow in his footsteps.

When you think about the major milestones in your life - birth, graduation, marriage, starting your career, having kids, retiring and then ..... well, what comes next? The one that comes immediately to mind leaves me not as eager to retire as I once was.

Still, anyone who thinks they can do it I say go for it. Even if you change your mind when you reach your goal I doubt that you will regret it. Even if you decide not to retire, at least you will be able to do what you want to do. Many days I wish I was in that kind of situation.
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by Storm » Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:25 pm

jackh wrote: When you think about the major milestones in your life - birth, graduation, marriage, starting your career, having kids, retiring and then ..... well, what comes next? The one that comes immediately to mind leaves me not as eager to retire as I once was.

Still, anyone who thinks they can do it I say go for it. Even if you change your mind when you reach your goal I doubt that you will regret it. Even if you decide not to retire, at least you will be able to do what you want to do. Many days I wish I was in that kind of situation.
I think retirement has a different meaning for everyone.  For someone reaching 65, retirement might mean moving to a beach house in Florida and not doing much all day long.  For a lot of us that want to retire early, retirement just means freedom to do what we want and not worry about paying our bills.  For example, I would love the freedom to try starting businesses, without having to worry about paying bills.  A lot of businesses can be started with little to no cash investment, if you are willing to sacrifice your time and hard work.  I think this is what is exciting about early retirement - the chance to change careers or start your own company without the pressures and stress of not making it financially.
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by jackely » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:08 pm

Storm wrote: For a lot of us that want to retire early, retirement just means freedom to do what we want and not worry about paying our bills. 
I suspect that's what most younger people mean when they talk about early retirement - like the 34 year old guy who said he and his wife were workaholics and hoped to retire at 45. Say what? How can two workaholics retire at 45?

At my age I can relate to what football players like Brett Favre who have a hard time retiring must be feel about hanging up their cleats. There is more of a feeling of finality to it.
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by One day at a time » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:08 am

I spent a number of years reading everything seemingly printed on early retirement.  For anyone seriously considering this approach, I recommend taking a good look at the partial retirement option.  It lets your interest compound and avoids the existential risk that comes with front loading your work life at the expense of your personal life.  The best book on it, at least when I was actively exploring these ideas several years ago, was Live More, Work Less: The Way Into Semi-Retirement by Bob Clyatt.  He's a father and husband, with a masters from MIT in finance, so a lot of the real life issues are addressed.  His book confirmed my suspicions that, like with most financial advice books, the pure early retirement books often glossed over the different types of risks involved.  In fact, partial retirement seems to be a very PP-esque work/life choice in that it encompasses the many future uncertainties that being alive entails.   
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by MediumTex » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:11 am

I was talking to my 4 year old son about this topic and he commented that he was an early retiree.

I explained to him that you can't retire until you start working.

This does, however, raise the interesting issue of life-cycle earning years.  If you assume that an average person lives to be 80 years old  and doesn't enter the workforce on a full time basis until age 23 and exits the workforce at age 65, what you have is a person who draws on the resources of society for 80 years but only engages in productive full time wage activity for a little less than half of that period.  I find this to be fascinating, especially when compared to agricultural societies where people basically work form birth to death.

The idea of someone reducing this period of full time work as part of the life cycle even more through early retirement is really amazing.  The point I would make, though, is that compared to the history of our species, virtually all people in modern industrialized nations are enjoying a form of early retirement.  OTOH, I'm sure a lot of cavemen would say that they had more free time on their hands than many of us do, even though they may have never fully retired.
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by Tyler » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:32 am

Yeah -- that early-retiring workaholic is (hopefully) me.  ;)

I can't see myself going without work completely.  I'd get bored with no immediate goals to chase.  But we absolutely look forward to not working for a living.  My wife has talked about wanting to go back to school for something completely different.  And I can totally see myself consulting off and on and picking my projects or perhaps doing volunteer work, but certainly not being a slave to the stress and hours of a "typical" work week. 

The best description I've heard of retirement is "every night is a Friday night and every morning is a Saturday morning."  I'd enjoy the opportunity to earn a few bucks on a 7-day weekend.  ;D

BTW, for the sake of the survey -- married, dual engineers, no kids.  And we're both habitual savers -- our expenses aren't really that much different now than when we first graduated college.  Retiring super-early at 40 probably won't work, but 45 looks realistic for us. 

FWIW, as long as both partners are on the same page when it comes to spending & saving, I'm a big believer that marriage is a huge help in retiring early.  The expenses aren't really any higher, but you save twice as fast.
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by Tortoise » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:38 am

That Live More, Work Less book sounds interesting. I'll check it out. There are certain lucrative careers I considered but didn't go into specifically because I knew they would require me to work 60+ hour weeks on a regular basis. I like money, but I guess I like free time even more.

Some evidence suggests that (at least for older retirees), retirement can actually be hazardous to one's health--especially if it is not filled with regular physical and mental activity.

I had a course in grad school taught by a professor who was in his mid-90s! And the guy was still as sharp as ever (far sharper than I!), physically healthy, and had an obvious passion for teaching. I think he must have discovered the fountain of youth :)
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by Tyler » Tue Dec 06, 2011 12:51 am

Yeah, partial retirement sounds pretty appealing to me, too.  I like the idea of "retiring" from a high-work, high-reward job and earning just enough to pay the bills doing something really enjoyable while my savings in the PP just chug away without being touched for a while.  Just gotta get to that threshold.  

And thanks for the teaching reference, Tortoise -- that's also on my "watch list" for potential retirement activities.  Sounds fun.

BTW, even though I'm an admitted workaholic, I've mellowed over time and I now do whatever I can to avoid 60 hour weeks.  In my line of work it is absolutely required from time to time, but as I've matured in my career I've come to realize that (unless you're paid by the hour) hours alone really don't make you any more money.  They just wear you out.  On no yearly review has any employer ever had a field for "# of hours worked this year."  I think the process of appreciating the calming effect of mental down time has been a big driver in making me think seriously about early/partial retirement.

And going back to my belief that marriage makes early retirement twice as achievable, the corollary to that is that marriage is a worthy investment.  But unlike the PP, that investment definitely requires active management.   ;)  You've gotta make the time for that.
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by bigamish » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:04 am

One day at a time wrote: The best book on it, at least when I was actively exploring these ideas several years ago, was Live More, Work Less: The Way Into Semi-Retirement by Bob Clyatt.    
Seconded.  This book provides the basic model by which Mrs. Amish & I wish to do something less lucrative but more fun with our lives post-45-50.  

Be careful about expecting teaching (I assume adjunct teaching at a college/university) to pay the bills during semi-retirement.  In the University System of Georgia, you typically make in the neighborhood of $3K per 3 credit course.  

My wife is a nurse, and so has a very portable job with extremely cool (and abundant) seasonal part-time possibilities.  I am probably going to get back to my roots and work seasonally as a national/state park ranger/interpreter and teach (probably online) sporadically to keep fresh in my field.  
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by MediumTex » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:42 am

bigamish wrote: This book provides the basic model by which Mrs. Amish & I wish to do something less lucrative but more fun with our lives post-45-50.  
How about farming?

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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by bigamish » Tue Dec 06, 2011 6:36 pm

MediumTex wrote: How about farming?

Image
Sadly, I suspect the wearing of PP-style leather chaps might not sit well within the Amish farming community.

As an aside, is it just me or do those two in the back look kinda bad-ass?
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by MediumTex » Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:07 pm

bigamish wrote:
MediumTex wrote: Image
As an aside, is it just me or do those two in the back look kinda bad-ass?
I think that is an Amish rap group.

They're called "The Buggy Dawgs".
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by One day at a time » Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:49 pm

Funny to bring up the Amish and farming...probably the big oversight in Clyatt's book, IMHO, is not taking a more unconventional look at how to reduce one's overhead.  Especially in the first edition of the book, the strategy is tilted towards younger, high earning professionals.  The Amish are excellent examples of how to apply a lot of these principals with a more back the land, lower income focus (minus the beards and buggies, of course.)  It's definitely the golden era of urban homesteading ideas in print right now.  For example, using intensive growing methods, you can definitely feed your family on a 0.10 acre lot, if you've got the right sun exposure.  As an alternate, check out this baby:

http://www.urbanfoodfarms.com/pd-urban- ... system.cfm

I'm sure you can build one of those for far less with a greenhouse kit and some guidance from your local hydroponics guy.  If you live in a sunny place, your inputs are minimal. 

As for energy, I live in Portland, Oregon, and a co-worker homesteaded in Alaska for 17 years.  Right now, she heats her house with wood, which they get for free on Mt. Hood each year.  (The forest service has a window of time where you can do this, I think to reduce the forest fire risk from overgrowth.)  When I lived back in the Midwest, pellet stoves were very economical options.

As for partial retirement with an agricultural bent, my impression is that The Contrary Farmer by Gene Logsdon is the book to read.  It certainly inspired me. 

Finally, if you have access to reasonably priced plots of land, check out these craftsman home kits:

http://www.firstdaycottage.com/

There are so many good ideas out there these days. 
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by Wonk » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:20 pm

Tortoise wrote: It seems like a lot (if not most) of this forum's members have either retired very early or have a goal of doing so.

I've been married for a little over a year. My opinion is that the ideal situation for a person determined to retire super-early is to be single, without children, and not living with a girlfriend or boyfriend. When someone else depends heavily on you--financially, emotionally, whatever--meeting that person's various expectations can be extremely hard to do if you're spending almost every waking moment devoted to building a small business or living a spartan lifestyle to quickly accumulate a large nest egg. One possible exception to this might be if you're married without children, and your spouse is one of those very rare people who shares and supports your goal of super-early retirement 100% and is willing to put up with whatever that entails.

My own father practically lived at work when I was a child, and while I'm deeply appreciative of how his hard work kept us financially secure, his absence put a tremendous strain on our relationship.
I think entrepreneurship is the fastest means of acquiring wealth--and perhaps, early retirement.  Where a lot of people hurt themselves is in the "keeping up with the Joneses" materialism.  High house payments, car payments, designer clothing, expensive gadgets, eating at fancy restaurants,etc, can vaporize precious bootstrap capital that would otherwise be used to launch a new business.  Also, these expensive monthly commitments can trap a lot of people into keeping a J(ust)O(ver)B(roke). 

One of my recent ventures required the typical 80-hr workweek.  I wasn't married when I started but got married while I was running it.  She knew full well what she was buying into when marrying me.  I can't imagine having kids to support financially or emotionally during the critical early years.  After the company was acquired, I had enough to retire into a middle class lifestyle. 

After a few months of soul searching I finally figured out I didn't have it in me to retire from work--even if I had all the money in the world.  What I learned is the real payoff in a successful company isn't the big check at the end, it's the journey & overcoming adversity along the way(as cliched as that might sound).  Walking into something that only existed in your mind before is awesome.  That can't be replaced with 7 rounds of golf every week--at least not for me.

The newest wrinkle is the addition of a baby at the house.  I finally realize how difficult it is to maintain productivity when you add kids to the equation.  After some attempts at creating more time with polyphasic sleep in the past, I've been forced to adopt it again in earnest.  The 7-hour sleep has been replaced with the 4-hour sleep.  The extra 3 hours is absolutely critical to getting stuff done.  If you have some interest, here's a good place to start:

http://www.dustincurtis.com/sleep.html

I know it's possible to acquire enough wealth to retire early while having a family--it just requires much more effort and much less sleep.  The question most people should ask isn't "how can I retire early?" I think the more appropriate question should be "what will my life look like when I retire and will I be happy?"
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by Storm » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:27 pm

bigamish wrote:
MediumTex wrote: How about farming?

Image
Sadly, I suspect the wearing of PP-style leather chaps might not sit well within the Amish farming community.

As an aside, is it just me or do those two in the back look kinda bad-ass?
It looks like Schrute farms from The Office...
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by Storm » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:31 pm

Polyphasic sleep is something that has interested me for a while now.  I've been contemplating doing it, but it's unfortunately not very compatible with the typical 8-5 job.  Not very many employers understand that you absolutely must have those mid-morning and mid-afternoon naps, and from what I've heard, when you need that nap, your body basically shuts down completely.

Please let us know how it works for you.  Sorry for the thread-jack, but it's a very fascinating topic.
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by Wonk » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:40 pm

Storm wrote: Polyphasic sleep is something that has interested me for a while now.  I've been contemplating doing it, but it's unfortunately not very compatible with the typical 8-5 job.  Not very many employers understand that you absolutely must have those mid-morning and mid-afternoon naps, and from what I've heard, when you need that nap, your body basically shuts down completely.
It really depends on what setup you adopt.  An "Uberman" schedule (6 x 20m) is incompatible with most lifestyles regardless of income source.  I'm working on an "Everyman 3," although I've been more productive at "Everyman 2."  I suspect a "Siesta" setup of 6hr core + 20m nap at lunch break would work well for those who are not self employed.

You can miss naps and survive on Everyman setups, but you pay the price.  Skip a nap on Uberman and you are definitely toast.
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Re: Super-Early Retirement Poll

Post by ahhrunforthehills » Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:28 pm

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