Mormonism - what you should know

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Mormonism - what you should know

Post by Storm » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:25 pm

I'm sort of inspired to post this as I just found out that MediumTex also has a Mormon background.  Personally, I was raised in southern California in a Mormon family.  We lived there until I was 7 years old, then moved to Provo, Utah, which is basically the center of Mormonism.  I'm not currently religious and it's been about 20 years since I've been to church.  Here is what you should know about my experience with Mormonism:

1.  There are a lot of good people in the Mormon church.
2.  I feel that overall, the Mormon religion teaches a good way to live your life.  Follow in Christ's teachings, love one another, follow the golden rule, and spend as much time as you can doing charity works and service to your fellow man.
3.  If you are a member, or live in Utah where the church is headquartered, you pretty much don't have to worry about poverty.  The church does a lot of really great charity work and provides food and help for the poor.  They really take care of a lot of impoverished members and non-members.

Now to the (possibly) negative:

1.  Mormons in Utah are different than the ones I met in California.  In California they are very accepting and happy to meet you.  In Utah, they are very judgemental, as in, "you don't look exactly the same as I do, so you must be not as religious as me."  This translates into a very cloistered society.  For example, I lived in a ward (church group) where there was only one family in the geographic area (a couple square miles) that was not Mormon.  This family was continuously harassed and proselytized to.  Once they were invited to church.  They were construction workers - your typical blue collar family.  They wore their best jeans to church, and everyone pointed at them and made comments behind their back about how tasteless it was for them to wear blue jeans to church, when clearly, everyone wore slacks to church.  They were just your average blue collar family, and didn't own a pair of slacks, or even know you were supposed to wear them, but they were judged because of their appearance rather than their willingness to accept the gospel.  They never came back to church, and personally, I don't blame them.  I learned on this and many other occasions that Utah Mormons are superficial and care more about the appearance of good and evil rather than actual good or evil acts.

2.  The Mormon religion has a lot of skeletons in it's closet.  Whether it's the mormon history of polygamy, which, I should point out, they no longer practice, or the time they were run out of Nauvoo, Illinois, they seem to have a polarizing effect on the surrounding community.  Here is a recount of the Mormons in Nauvoo, IL:
The Mormons in Nauvoo had a great impact on the surrounding area. They came to Nauvoo and created a very large and prosperous community. As they grew and became more successful, however, resentment of them grew. Hard work and determination made Nauvoo a successful community, while political disputes and jealousy caused it to fail.

Joseph Smith was born in Sharon, Vermont, on December 23, 1805. When he was eleven years old his family moved to Manchester, New York. He did not know what religious group to join when he was young. In 1820 he believed God and Jesus told him not to join any existing church, but to prepare for important tasks. Smith said an angel named Moroni visited him in 1823 and told him where to find gold plates with important writing on them. He received them four years later. In 1830 he published his translation of them called the Book of Mormon. On April 6, 1830, Smith and five others established the "Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" at Fayette, New York. Smith was the church leader. In 1831 Smith moved to Kirtland, Ohio, in an attempt to expand his congregation. At twenty-six years of age, he was tall, good-looking, and charming, as well as a very persuasive speaker. He converted many to his new church.

From the beginning the Kirtland church had many problems. The Mormons started a bank that failed in 1837, largely because the country was going through an economic depression. To the local people, however, it did not matter that the country was in a difficult economic condition. They blamed the Mormons for the failure of the bank.

Mormon communities had also sprung up in Mentor, Ohio, and Independence, Missouri. Three years before the bank failure in Kirtland, the Missouri Mormons had been forced to leave Independence and settle in a town in northern Missouri. After leaving Kirtland, Joseph Smith joined this growing community of Missouri Mormons. Missouri was a slave state and the Mormons had strong antislavery beliefs. This conflict as well as the growing size of the community and the fact that they held different beliefs than most Christians caused a growing conflict with the people of Missouri. After an election riot, Governor Lilburn W. Boggs said, "Mormons must be exterminated or driven from the state." A few days later, mobs joined by the Missouri State militia attacked a Mormon settlement killing twenty people in what was called the "massacre at Haun's Mill." After this the Mormons were ordered to leave Missouri. Joseph Smith and some other Mormon leaders agreed to remain under arrest in Missouri.

About fifteen thousand Missouri Mormons fled to the free state of Illinois where they were welcomed. A few months later. Smith escaped prison and joined his people in Illinois. There they established the city of Nauvoo. Joseph Smith thought this swampy land in the bend of the Mississippi River would be a perfect place for the Mormons to settle. The non-Mormon residents watched in awe and with a little jealousy as the hard-working Mormons began to prosper. They dug canals to drain the swampy land, and they built brick houses and structures while most other residents of this area lived in simple log cabins.

Within a few years the population reached twenty thousand, which made it the largest city in Illinois. A big part of the reason for this growth was the great success of the Mormon missionaries. In England, where economic times were very hard, they found a population willing to accept Mormonism and move to America. Most of the immigrants settled in Nauvoo. For the most part they were poor and had little or no farming skills. While Nauvoo looked busy and prosperous, its economy was for the most part based on the construction of housing and public buildings for the rapidly growing population. What they needed and did not have was industry to provide jobs and income. Once construction was completed many were unemployed in Nauvoo. The leaders of Nauvoo spent a lot of time trying to attract industry to their community. Among the industries they discussed but never obtained were a railroad, a cotton mill, and a pottery plant.

Much of the economy of Nauvoo was based on credit. After a few years, the weak economy of the town became more of a problem. The lack of money and old debts from Ohio and Missouri caused the Mormons to resort to declaring bankruptcies and other maneuvers to clear their debts. One thing they did that caused them big problems in the area was the general policy not to repay debts owed to non-Mormons. These tilings caused economic problems in Nauvoo and political problems for Mormons in the state of Illinois. Joseph Smith, the Mormon leader, was blamed for these decisions.

Mormon leaders felt safe from retaliation for some of these economic decisions partly because they had their own militia called the "Nauvoo Legion." This army was chartered by the state of Illinois shortly after Nauvoo was established. The Legion, which had ceremonial duties within the church, soon evolved into an army whose main job was to protect the leadership of the church. The non-Mormons of the area saw this army as a threat to them.

As time went on relations between Mormons and non-Mormons in Illinois quickly deteriorated. Joseph Smith was killed by an angry mob in 1844. The next year a group of three hundred non-Mormons began to attack and burn Mormon homes in rural areas around Nauvoo. The Mormons formed a posse and retaliated. This violence was the beginning of the end for the Mormons in Illinois.

In 1844 the Illinois General Assembly asked the Mormons to leave the state and withdrew the charter for the city of Nauvoo. From there, the Mormons left in 1845 to resettle in Salt Lake City, Utah
Before Nauvoo, they were run out of Missouri by an executive order allowing the killing of Mormons:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_E ... e_Order_44

They also had their own militia, the Danites:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danite

All in all, Joseph Smith was a pretty shady individual.  He claimed the Book of Mormon was translated through him from solid gold plates carved with hieroglyphs.  Nobody ever saw the plates but him, and the person who transcribed them for him into English decided to throw away the manuscript and see if he would translate it the same way a second time - it turns out he couldn't and the second time through the translation changed.  Surprise, surprise...

I could go on and on about Joseph Smith, but suffice it to say, he leaves a lot to be desired if you consider him a modern day prophet, as many Mormons do.

3.  The Mormon church is very cult-like.  I won't go into all of the crazy cult-like things that they do, but suffice it to say that magic underwear is the least of their issues.  The temple rituals seem to be a mix of Kaballah and occult mysticism.

This is really just the tip of the iceberg, but I thought I would open it up for discussion in case there are others that are interested in the Mormon church - especially since we could have a PotUS that is Mormon soon.

If you have questions about the LDS/Mormon Church, please fire away.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by Pointedstick » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:56 pm

My best friend at work is a Mormon, and he and his wife are absolutely lovely people. Interestingly enough, he's a Californian Mormon and not from Utah. All the contact with Mormons I've had has been positive, and I really approve of their philosophy of preparedness and self-reliance, but I could never become one of them. At the very least, I'm just too much of a Scrooge to be able to stomach the 10% tithe! But I generally think they do good work and they don't try to oppress me, so hey, more power to 'em for living the way they want and not the way the rest of society pushes us.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by Reub » Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:56 pm

In the interest of fairness, should we also start a thread on Black Liberation Theology as well?
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by l82start » Mon Aug 06, 2012 1:43 am

i lived in a small Mormon town for quite a few years and found them to be friendly enough to outsiders, i got a visit from the missionary's once or twice a year and always invited them in for a chat, they never pushed hard, i also borrowed a few missionary to work on a charitable project i had going an a couple of occasions and they were glad to jump in and help even though it wasn't church related .. 

on the down side i did meet some with the superiority complex storm mentioned and there is the clannish aspect to any religion that seeks to be good by insulating themselves from bad or outside influences and ideas..
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:31 am

Storm wrote: This is really just the tip of the iceberg, but I thought I would open it up for discussion in case there are others that are interested in the Mormon church - especially since we could have a PotUS that is Mormon soon.
What are the practical implication of having a President that is from such a cultlike religion?  Is there anything in particular in terms of a "Manifest Destiny" world vision Romney would have in such a position of power?  I haven't personally observed Romney's Mormonism to be a cause for concern so far, probably because the media hasn't made a big deal out of it, but now that I reflect more on it, I wonder if there is any basis to be alarmed?  The overtones with tyrant religious extremists in the Middle East is a little hard to ignore.  Given Nostradamus' alleged prophecies for these times, Obama seems a lot less likely to start WWIII by pissing off the Shites.  So now I'm feeling rather uncomfortable.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Aug 06, 2012 7:40 am

Reub wrote: In the interest of fairness, should we also start a thread on Black Liberation Theology as well?
lolololololololololool
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by Storm » Mon Aug 06, 2012 8:09 am

Like, I said, this is just the tip of the iceberg.  Personally, I don't think having a PotUS that is Mormon would be cause for alarm more than any other religion.  As much as some faiths disagree, the modern version of Mormonism is a pretty basic Christian religion.  It has a checkered past, but then again, so do most religions that have been around for some time.

There are some interesting prophecies that Mormons believe in around the "end-times".  They believe that we are living in the last days (don't most Christian religions?) and that before the second coming of Christ, the constitution of the US will hang "by a shoestring."  An anti-christ will rise to power (possibly in the middle east) and the US will fight against them.  Because Mormonism was founded during the 1800s it has a uniquely American-centric point of view that older religions don't have.

Another very interesting thing about Mormonism is that they are one of the few religions that believe that if you do very good in this life, are married in the temple, and are "exalted" to the highest part of the celestial kingdom (they believe in 3 kingdoms in heaven, telestial, terrestrial, and celestial), you can become a god yourself and give birth to your own planets and people.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by Reub » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:23 am

Remember these little "sermons" that demonstrate Black Liberation Theology at it's finest?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hPR5jnjtLo
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by WildAboutHarry » Mon Aug 06, 2012 9:26 am

Storm wrote:Like, I said, this is just the tip of the iceberg.  Personally, I don't think having a PotUS that is Mormon would be cause for alarm more than any other religion.  As much as some faiths disagree, the modern version of Mormonism is a pretty basic Christian religion.  It has a checkered past, but then again, so do most religions that have been around for some time.
Agree.

Dig back through the contemporary writings during the Kennedy-Nixon campaign in 1960.  Same stuff, Kennedy is a papist, Rome will run the U.S., Roman Catholics are part of a cult, etc.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by MediumTex » Mon Aug 06, 2012 10:27 am

Storm wrote: I'm sort of inspired to post this as I just found out that MediumTex also has a Mormon background. 
Although I find Mormonism to be a fascinating creation of the American imagination, I do not have any background in the LDS church other than finding it an interesting thing to read about.

I have known lots of Mormons, most of whom seemed like wonderful people.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by MediumTex » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:24 pm

TennPaGa wrote:
I think he was confused by this (as was I):
MediumTex wrote: As a former (or perhaps semi-former) Mormon, I hope we can come back to that topic some time and you can share your views from the rear view (or side view) mirror.
Perhaps you could discuss your experiences with Black Liberation Theology instead? ;)
I'm sorry, I was referring to Storm as the former Mormon, not me.

I should have said it this way:

Storm, since you are a former (or perhaps semi-former) Mormon, I hope we can come back to that topic some time and you can share your views from the rear view (or side view) mirror.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by Storm » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:50 pm

Thanks for the clarification.  I did misread your comment.  In any case, I do find some parts of the Mormon teachings interesting, like emergency preparedness - they believe having 1 years food supply is important.

But, I'm not very religious any more, and as pointedstick said, I'm too greedy to pay 10% to a wealthy church that really doesn't need my money...
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by MediumTex » Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:56 pm

Storm wrote: Thanks for the clarification.  I did misread your comment.  In any case, I do find some parts of the Mormon teachings interesting, like emergency preparedness - they believe having 1 years food supply is important.
I think that the Mormon approach to emergency preparedness is very impressive.  It has a PP-like quality to it.

I also love the sense of community that Mormons seem to experience.  In a bad situation, such community is hugely important.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by notsheigetz » Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:28 pm

MediumTex wrote: I think that the Mormon approach to emergency preparedness is very impressive.  It has a PP-like quality to it.
Stayed with my wife's cousin in Ogden one night a couple of years ago on a trip to Yellowstone and I was also impressed with the stacks of toilet paper all the way up to the ceiling in the bedroom we were sleeping in. Talk about preparedness! I don't care much for TV so the fact that the living room was almost completely filled with emergency supplies blocking out the TV didn't bother me that much.

Don't know if this was typical Mormonism or not but I thought it was a little weird.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by Reub » Mon Aug 06, 2012 6:00 pm

The Black Liberation Theologists seem like nice people as well. And, I believe, they have a fond wish for sharing the wealth.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:04 pm

TennPaGa wrote: FWIW, I expect Romney's religion influences his world view.  I think this is generally true of people: their world view is very much influenced by their culture.  That said, I think it is a bit silly to try to try to guess, based on the tenets of his religion, what his policies might be.  It becomes an exercise in projection.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but, Romney has stated he will attack Iran after he is elected and he is not even President yet.  Even Bush Jr was not that bold about Iraq.  So what agenda is this implying?

But in his Olympic interview, Romney admitted he had an Eisenhower-view or some such on foreign policy.  I'm unfamiliar with that tenant, but it seemed to me that must be where the rubber met the road for "armed neutrality" vs "american imperialism" after WWII.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by Pointedstick » Mon Aug 06, 2012 11:14 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
TennPaGa wrote: FWIW, I expect Romney's religion influences his world view.  I think this is generally true of people: their world view is very much influenced by their culture.  That said, I think it is a bit silly to try to try to guess, based on the tenets of his religion, what his policies might be.  It becomes an exercise in projection.
Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but, Romney has stated he will attack Iran after he is elected and he is not even President yet.  Even Bush Jr was not that bold about Iraq.  So what agenda is this implying?
I'm pretty sure his agenda is to say whatever he thinks will get the conservatives to vote for him.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by notsheigetz » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:03 pm

MachineGhost wrote: Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but, Romney has stated he will attack Iran after he is elected and he is not even President yet.  Even Bush Jr was not that bold about Iraq.  So what agenda is this implying?
You aren't wrong. I seldom pay attention to anything that politicians say any more but I have a very vivid memory of Romney stating (probably in one of the debates though I'm not sure), that if elected president his first act will be to dispatch an air craft carrier to the Persian Gulf and prepare for war.  I found that alarming on two levels, not just that he is itching for a fight with Iran but that he believes he has the power to initiate it on his own authority if elected.

I hope that during the presidential debates one of the moderators will bring this out in the open and press him on it. I tend to doubt it will happen unless they make Ron Paul one of the moderators (which, come to think of it, is a great idea).
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by Reub » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:33 pm

Don't we already have aircraft carriers in the Persian Gulf region?
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by MediumTex » Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:45 pm

notsheigetz wrote:
MachineGhost wrote: Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but, Romney has stated he will attack Iran after he is elected and he is not even President yet.  Even Bush Jr was not that bold about Iraq.  So what agenda is this implying?
You aren't wrong. I seldom pay attention to anything that politicians say any more but I have a very vivid memory of Romney stating (probably in one of the debates though I'm not sure), that if elected president his first act will be to dispatch an air craft carrier to the Persian Gulf and prepare for war.  I found that alarming on two levels, not just that he is itching for a fight with Iran but that he believes he has the power to initiate it on his own authority if elected.

I hope that during the presidential debates one of the moderators will bring this out in the open and press him on it. I tend to doubt it will happen unless they make Ron Paul one of the moderators (which, come to think of it, is a great idea).
All of that stuff is just campaign rhetoric.

It doesn't mean anything.

In 2000 George W. Bush campaigned on getting out of the "nation building" business and then proceeded to spend most of his eight years in office nation building in Afghanistan and Iraq.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by 6 Iron » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:05 pm

Reub wrote: Don't we already have aircraft carriers in the Persian Gulf region?
And one more soon to be heading that way, carrying my nephew.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by notsheigetz » Thu Aug 09, 2012 5:31 pm

MediumTex wrote: All of that stuff is just campaign rhetoric.

It doesn't mean anything.

In 2000 George W. Bush campaigned on getting out of the "nation building" business and then proceeded to spend most of his eight years in office nation building in Afghanistan and Iraq.
I get that - Like FDR campaigning on a promise to keep us out of WWII while secretly plotting to get us in.

But what else do we really have to go on besides what they say?

My gut tells me Romney is serious about what he says but I will be happy to be proved wrong if he wins.

And speaking of Afghanistan and presidential elections while the Olympics is underway I was reminded of something very interesting the other day about the 1980 Olympics. Jimmy Carter was president and we boycotted the Olympics that year. Does anybody remember why?
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by Reub » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:37 pm

I believe that Iran will blow up well before the election in November.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by MediumTex » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:07 pm

notsheigetz wrote: And speaking of Afghanistan and presidential elections while the Olympics is underway I was reminded of something very interesting the other day about the 1980 Olympics. Jimmy Carter was president and we boycotted the Olympics that year. Does anybody remember why?
Dispute involving the Soviet Union.  I don't remember what it was about.
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Re: Mormonism - what you should know

Post by 6 Iron » Thu Aug 09, 2012 10:38 pm

MediumTex wrote:
notsheigetz wrote: And speaking of Afghanistan and presidential elections while the Olympics is underway I was reminded of something very interesting the other day about the 1980 Olympics. Jimmy Carter was president and we boycotted the Olympics that year. Does anybody remember why?
Dispute involving the Soviet Union.  I don't remember what it was about.
It was the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in support of the then existing communist government, against Muslim rebels.
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