Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Other discussions not related to the Permanent Portfolio

Moderator: Global Moderator

User avatar
Storm
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Storm » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:51 pm

TBV wrote: Neither Romney nor Ryan have to be libertarians or Austrians, though it would be great if they were.  They simply have to offer a level of competence that exceeds that of the current administration.  That shouldn't be hard.
After studying MMT/MMR, I'm pretty sure that a libertarian or Austrian economic policy would be the absolute worst thing you could do right now.  Europe is showing us what happens when you try austerity in the face of a depression.
"I came here for financial advice, but I've ended up with a bunch of shave soaps and apparently am about to start eating sardines.  Not that I'm complaining, of course." -ZedThou
User avatar
Benko
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1900
Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:40 am

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Benko » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:16 pm

Storm wrote:   Europe is showing us what happens when you try austerity in the face of a depression.
Has Europe really tried austerity i.e. spending less, or only the tax you more, but keep spending the same version of austerity?
It was good being the party of Robin Hood. Until they morphed into the Sheriff of Nottingham
User avatar
Storm
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Storm » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:34 pm

Simonjester wrote:
Storm wrote:
TBV wrote: Neither Romney nor Ryan have to be libertarians or Austrians, though it would be great if they were.  They simply have to offer a level of competence that exceeds that of the current administration.  That shouldn't be hard.
After studying MMT/MMR, I'm pretty sure that a libertarian or Austrian economic policy would be the absolute worst thing you could do right now.  Europe is showing us what happens when you try austerity in the face of a depression.
austerity to a socialist seems to be cutting police, fire, emergency services, infrastructure upkeep and entitlements that anybody who has ever taken them now has a life long "right" to..
austerity to a libertarian or Austrian seems to be cutting corruption, waste,  boondoggles and spending on programs they feel the private sector could fill the need for better..

while all the mmr discussions have tempered my views about limiting government spending in a fiat monetary system, i still think there is a lot room for libertarian or Austrian type cuts to spending or at least cuts to bad and wasteful spending that can be made without tipping it over into depression..  
Austerity, or at least the disastrous European version of it, seems to be cutting government spending while keeping tax rates at astronomically high levels.  If you did this for a decade or so pretty soon the government would have all of the money and the private sector would have none, as 50% tax rates keep halving every dollar spent.  What it seems to be causing in Greece and other places is an underground all cash economy to proliferate and tax evasion to become widespread.

I'll give their plan kudos for having bold things in it like cutting capital gains tax to 0%.  But, what Ryan's career in congress has shown is that they do pretty well about talking about tax cuts, while at the same time spending like drunken sailors and adding more regulation.  In the end it's just smoke and mirrors to appease their conservative base while simultaneously handing out government spending to the people that are currently giving Karl Rove $1 billion to play attack ads in swing states.
"I came here for financial advice, but I've ended up with a bunch of shave soaps and apparently am about to start eating sardines.  Not that I'm complaining, of course." -ZedThou
User avatar
Storm
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Storm » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:37 pm

One analogy I to the European austerity would be this:

A new college graduate has accumulated $100,000 in student loans.  He gets out of college and is lucky enough to get an entry level job at a large company.  He's paying off his student loans very slowly but not really making much progress.  All of a sudden he gets laid off and is on unemployment.

The bank goes to him and says "I know you're unemployed, but we think you need to pay off your student loan debt in full from your unemployment checks."

It just doesn't work; you can't balance the deficit in the face of depression.
"I came here for financial advice, but I've ended up with a bunch of shave soaps and apparently am about to start eating sardines.  Not that I'm complaining, of course." -ZedThou
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Ad Orientem » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:40 pm

Reub wrote: In the eyes of many socialist types, the very mention of words like austerity and fiscal sensibility brings about a gut wrenching reaction leading one to surmise that they have already felt it's effects.
Based on their track record I would say the same was true of the neo-Con Republicans who have been busily bankrupting this country over the last few decades.
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
User avatar
Coffee
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 733
Joined: Wed Oct 20, 2010 6:24 pm

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Coffee » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:46 pm

Romney picked Paul Ryan to make sure that people like me (people who view Romney as a closet liberal) won't stay home on election day.  Basically, to shore up the Conservative base.  Yes, we don't like Obama-- but you can't win elections entirely by getting people to vote against someone.  You have to give them something to vote for.

Paul Ryan is that "something to vote for."
"Now remember, when things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is. "
User avatar
Jan Van
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 717
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:42 am
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Jan Van » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:29 am

Benko wrote: Ryan is honest, ...
Another honest politician I suppose, just bad memory...

Presented With Letters, Ryan Admits Requesting Stimulus Cash

In Paul Ryan’s home state, he supported US energy funds while decrying stimulus program

Really, how long before everybody gets tired of this? There's a lot to be said for this: http://firecongress.org/
"Well, if you're gonna sin you might as well be original" -- Mike "The Cool-Person"
"Yeah, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man" -- The Dude
User avatar
MediumTex
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 9096
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by MediumTex » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:38 am

jmourik wrote:
Benko wrote: Ryan is honest, ...
Another honest politician I suppose, just bad memory...

Presented With Letters, Ryan Admits Requesting Stimulus Cash

In Paul Ryan’s home state, he supported US energy funds while decrying stimulus program

Really, how long before everybody gets tired of this? There's a lot to be said for this: http://firecongress.org/
Are you suggesting that a politician might be a hypocrite and that Paul Ryan is unremarkable in that regard?
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
User avatar
Jan Van
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 717
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2010 5:42 am
Location: Charlotte, NC

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Jan Van » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:44 am

MediumTex wrote: Are you suggesting that a politician might be a hypocrite and that Paul Ryan is unremarkable in that regard?
Ehhh.... :-)

I'm just wondering how people still manage to vote for these, ehhh, politicians...
"Well, if you're gonna sin you might as well be original" -- Mike "The Cool-Person"
"Yeah, well, that’s just, like, your opinion, man" -- The Dude
User avatar
MediumTex
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 9096
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by MediumTex » Fri Aug 17, 2012 10:47 am

jmourik wrote:
MediumTex wrote: Are you suggesting that a politician might be a hypocrite and that Paul Ryan is unremarkable in that regard?
Ehhh.... :-)

I'm just wondering how people still manage to vote for these, ehhh, politicians...
With the right kind of propaganda, I think that anyone can be made to look like a hero.

If I woke up one day and was a major politician, just for fun I might call a press conference and announce to my constituents how sorry I was that my colleagues and I had participated in a multi-generational conspiracy to steal their money and freedom.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
notsheigetz
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 684
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 5:18 pm

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by notsheigetz » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:12 am

A priceless piece on Paul Ryan, entitled "Satan, thy name is Paul Ryan....

http://takimag.com/article/satan_thy_na ... z23uUY5ewi

I think it will be an interesting experiment to see if the American people are smart enough to not fall for the logical fallacy of using Ad Hominem attacks in place of arguments. I tend to think they are not but it will be interesting to observe.
This space available for rent.
User avatar
MachineGhost
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 10054
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:31 am

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by MachineGhost » Sat Aug 18, 2012 12:00 pm

notsheigetz wrote: I think it will be an interesting experiment to see if the American people are smart enough to not fall for the logical fallacy of using Ad Hominem attacks in place of arguments. I tend to think they are not but it will be interesting to observe.
I'm disappointed that from all the fine details, Ryan turns out to be just another hypocritical Republican.  He sure talks a good game.
"All generous minds have a horror of what are commonly called 'Facts'. They are the brute beasts of the intellectual domain." -- Thomas Hobbes

Disclaimer: I am not a broker, dealer, investment advisor, physician, theologian or prophet.  I should not be considered as legally permitted to render such advice!
Reub
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3158
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:44 pm

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Reub » Sat Aug 18, 2012 1:55 pm

You have to look at their innate tendencies when they're not out campaigning. Romney believes in capitalism. Obama does not. Ryan has put forth a real plan to reduce the debt. Obama has not. Romney actually likes our allies. Obama does not. R/R believe in work, not welfare. The Big "O" does not.  R/R want smaller, less obtrusive govt. Big "O" does not. R/R believe in accessing real, useful forms of energy. Obama wants us all on bicycles with windmills on top. I won't even mention what Biden might or might not believe in because he is a joke.
User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8864
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Pointedstick » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:34 pm

Reub wrote: You have to look at their innate tendencies when they're not out campaigning. Romney believes in capitalism. Obama does not.
The form of Capitalism and Romney and Ryan believe in looks an awful like the kind that Obama believes in. All three supported TARP and most of the big bailouts of the era. The only real difference I can see is the kinds of institutions that they prefer: Obama bailed out the automakers while Romney and Ryan would have (rightfully) let them crash and burn, but I suspect that they'd be even more willing to bail out financial companies than Obama is.

Then let's see, there's the various big government subsidies to favored industries. Romney claims that he would end wind power subsidies, and Obama made some noise about ending farm subsidies, but couldn't get it done. Something makes me suspect that R/R wouldn't touch the money spigot either once the lobbyists start crowing about all the jobs that the federal payola is supporting.
Reub wrote: Ryan has put forth a real plan to reduce the debt. Obama has not.
The Ryan plan is a joke, so neither of them has. But this is actually a good thing, since balancing the budget would entail removing assets from the private sector. If they balanced the budget, where would we buy 30-year treasuries? In the crazy messed-up monetary system we seem to be stuck with, a balanced budget is the last thing people should want. The issue is the equitability of the distribution of printed, borrowed, deficit-spent dollars, not their mere existence to begin with.
Reub wrote:Romney actually likes our allies. Obama does not.
I'll agree with you there, but again I'm not sure how much of a difference it actually makes in practice. What we're really talking about here is the middle east, and let's be honest: our influence there is much smaller than we like to pretend it is. The rivalries in that area are old, and the people there are just going to do to each other what they're going to to, in my opinion.
Reub wrote:R/R believe in work, not welfare. The Big "O" does not.
This one is kind of debatable, but I see where you're coming from so I'll agree. But again, in practice I'm not sure how big of a difference it actually makes. Congress is the body that controls the purse strings of the welfare programs, not the president. All the president can really do is make noise about it, but congress has the actual power.
Reub wrote: R/R want smaller, less obtrusive govt.
From mittromney.com:
Mitt Romney will complete a high-tech fence to enhance border security.
Governor Romney will ensure that we have the officers on the ground we need to gain control of the border.
A Romney Administration will work to develop an efficient, effective system of exit verification to ensure people do not overstay their visas.
Now that doesn't sound intrusive at all ;)
Reub wrote:R/R believe in accessing real, useful forms of energy. Obama wants us all on bicycles with windmills on top.
That's pretty much true, and his kowtowing to the anti-development, anti-human existence eco-nazis is a constant source of frustration to me as well. But again, it's really congress that has the power here, not the president.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
User avatar
craigr
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2540
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:26 pm

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by craigr » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:37 pm

MediumTex wrote:
jmourik wrote:
Benko wrote: Ryan is honest, ...
Another honest politician I suppose, just bad memory...

Presented With Letters, Ryan Admits Requesting Stimulus Cash

In Paul Ryan’s home state, he supported US energy funds while decrying stimulus program

Really, how long before everybody gets tired of this? There's a lot to be said for this: http://firecongress.org/
Are you suggesting that a politician might be a hypocrite and that Paul Ryan is unremarkable in that regard?
And I quote from the politics sticky in the main forum:

"If you want to bash on politicians you can go to a number of sites to do so. Politicians are liars, even your personal favorite. Screaming about it on an Internet forum isn't going to change this immutable law of the Universe."
Reub
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3158
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:44 pm

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Reub » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:50 pm

Was Reagan a liar? Was Truman? Was Eisenhower? Was Lincoln? Was JFK? Were they all liars?
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Ad Orientem » Sat Aug 18, 2012 3:59 pm

Reub wrote: Was Reagan a liar? Was Truman? Was Eisenhower? Was Lincoln? Was JFK? Were they all liars?
Yes, Not Sure, Yes, Yes and Yes.
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
User avatar
Ad Orientem
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 3483
Joined: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:47 pm
Location: Florida USA
Contact:

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Ad Orientem » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:07 pm

As an addendum to my previous the fact that a president lied occasionally does not mean they weren't great presidents. The nature of the job in the modern world makes the occasional lie necessary. The question is did they lie rarely and only when necessary for a specific reason (Ike Lincoln)? Or did they make a habit out of it because it was a reflection of their character (JFK)?
Trumpism is not a philosophy or a movement. It's a cult.
User avatar
craigr
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 2540
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:26 pm

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by craigr » Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:23 pm

Reub wrote: Was Reagan a liar? Was Truman? Was Eisenhower? Was Lincoln? Was JFK? Were they all liars?
Almost certainly. Just depends what they were lying about and the repercussions of the lies. It is all a matter of degrees.
Last edited by craigr on Sat Aug 18, 2012 4:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8864
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Pointedstick » Sat Aug 18, 2012 5:01 pm

Reub wrote: Was Reagan a liar? Was Truman? Was Eisenhower? Was Lincoln? Was JFK? Were they all liars?
Yes, absolutely. One cannot intentionally become politically successful in a democracy without being or becoming a liar, a panderer, or both. And the more power we're talking about, the truer this becomes. I suggest reading some more Hans-Hermann Hoppe, especially Democracy: The God That Failed.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
User avatar
Storm
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 1652
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:04 pm

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Storm » Sat Aug 18, 2012 8:56 pm

This just in:  Romney's tax plan is mathematically impossible:  http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-08-0 ... able-.html

Who knew?
"I came here for financial advice, but I've ended up with a bunch of shave soaps and apparently am about to start eating sardines.  Not that I'm complaining, of course." -ZedThou
User avatar
MediumTex
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 9096
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by MediumTex » Sat Aug 18, 2012 10:50 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Reub wrote: Was Reagan a liar? Was Truman? Was Eisenhower? Was Lincoln? Was JFK? Were they all liars?
Yes, absolutely. One cannot intentionally become politically successful in a democracy without being or becoming a liar, a panderer, or both. And the more power we're talking about, the truer this becomes. I suggest reading some more Hans-Hermann Hoppe, especially Democracy: The God That Failed.
This is an interesting topic.  I think that politicians lie in the way that fish swim--it's just a fundamental part of their basic existence.  There really isn't an ethical or moral dimension to politicians and lying, any more than there is an ethical or moral dimension to a fish swimming.

I don't mean that as an insult, any more than it would be an insult to say that something a snake did was "snake-like."
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
User avatar
6 Iron
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 339
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:12 pm

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by 6 Iron » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:04 pm

Pointedstick wrote:
Reub wrote: Was Reagan a liar? Was Truman? Was Eisenhower? Was Lincoln? Was JFK? Were they all liars?
Yes, absolutely. One cannot intentionally become politically successful in a democracy without being or becoming a liar, a panderer, or both. And the more power we're talking about, the truer this becomes. I suggest reading some more Hans-Hermann Hoppe, especially Democracy: The God That Failed.
This is interesting. Politics is the art of the possible, asking people to compromise. I suspect we all have principles that we would say are rigidly fixed, and others where we have wiggle room. Being a liar or panderer could apply to every person that has ever existed at one time or another, and while I have no great love for politicians, I am aware of the constraints in which they operate. I do have a genuine beef with their investment performance, compared to the average investor, but I do not want to derail this thread.
User avatar
MediumTex
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 9096
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2010 11:47 pm
Contact:

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by MediumTex » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:15 pm

6 Iron wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
Reub wrote: Was Reagan a liar? Was Truman? Was Eisenhower? Was Lincoln? Was JFK? Were they all liars?
Yes, absolutely. One cannot intentionally become politically successful in a democracy without being or becoming a liar, a panderer, or both. And the more power we're talking about, the truer this becomes. I suggest reading some more Hans-Hermann Hoppe, especially Democracy: The God That Failed.
This is interesting. Politics is the art of the possible, asking people to compromise. I suspect we all have principles that we would say are rigidly fixed, and others where we have wiggle room. Being a liar or panderer could apply to every person that has ever existed at one time or another, and while I have no great love for politicians, I am aware of the constraints in which they operate. I do have a genuine beef with their investment performance, compared to the average investor, but I do not want to derail this thread.
Having personally known a few politicians over the years, I'm pretty sure most of them would describe themelves as simply pragmatic public servants.

No one sees himself as anything but well-intentioned.

Politics is just an ugly business, and MANY people have a deep desire to be told what they want to hear.
Q: “Do you have funny shaped balloons?”
A: “Not unless round is funny.”
User avatar
Pointedstick
Executive Member
Executive Member
Posts: 8864
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2012 9:21 pm
Contact:

Re: Romney Picks Paul Ryan

Post by Pointedstick » Sat Aug 18, 2012 11:19 pm

MediumTex wrote:
Pointedstick wrote:
Reub wrote: Was Reagan a liar? Was Truman? Was Eisenhower? Was Lincoln? Was JFK? Were they all liars?
Yes, absolutely. One cannot intentionally become politically successful in a democracy without being or becoming a liar, a panderer, or both. And the more power we're talking about, the truer this becomes. I suggest reading some more Hans-Hermann Hoppe, especially Democracy: The God That Failed.
This is an interesting topic.  I think that politicians lie in the way that fish swim--it's just a fundamental part of their basic existence.  There really isn't an ethical or moral dimension to politicians and lying, any more than there is an ethical or moral dimension to a fish swimming.

I don't mean that as an insult, any more than it would be an insult to say that something a snake did was "snake-like."
Absolutely. This is actually one of Hoppe's central theses. Lying and pandering are career skills to politicians and essential traits for those who aspire to politics; even politicians who mean well must get elected and stay elected, and this will entail making promises they can't keep, tarring their opponents, or exaggerating the truth, especially if their opponent does it first and they feel they need to keep up. In this way, even well-meaning or aspiring politicians are corrupted by the nature of the institutions they aspire to as they must first commit immoral acts to reach the position of power they imagine they will use to commit moral acts.

The next problem is related to the length of their tenure. Elected politicians essentially own, control, and can profit from their guardianship of their territory only for the length of their terms. The shorter their terms, the shorter their time horizons must be. The nature of politicians' short-term control means they have a strong incentive to consume or redistribute the societal surplus--especially if it will aid their re-election chances--and little to no incentive to improve their territory's long-term capital stock.

Finally, we have to understand what it is that politicians actually do. They do not derive their living from producing goods or services, nor selling those that others have produced. Rather, they are paid to determine of the victims of the state's violence corps, otherwise known as the military and police forces. Should the violence corps be turned against perceived foreign enemies? Domestic terrorists? Pot growers? Wealthy businessmen? Women seeking abortions? Universities who admit too few minorities? People building their own houses without permission?

A politician's job is the creation of law, and every law is an order to do violence against a specified group. And a democratically-elected politician is one whose lawmaking powers will be skewed toward short-term gain for themselves and their voters.
Human behavior is economic behavior. The particulars may vary, but competition for limited resources remains a constant.
- CEO Nwabudike Morgan
Post Reply