Aspirin

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Reub
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Aspirin

Post by Reub » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:20 pm

I read something earlier this week about the correlation between sustained use of aspirin and "wet" macular degeneration. There has been much evidence prior to this of reduced risk of heart disease, cancer, Alzheimer's disease, and Parkinson's for those who subscribe to an aspirin regimen. I have recently begun such a regimen on the advice of a family cardiologist (I run and have no symptoms of any of these illnesses) and am interested in your opinions on it's efficacy.

Is it really a miracle drug?
Last edited by Reub on Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Coffee » Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:31 pm

I saw the same report this week and was wondering about the same thing.  I've been taking a baby aspirin every night for probably the past year.

I do feel like my vision is getting worse.  It's probably the hypochondria, though.  :(
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Re: Aspirin

Post by notsheigetz » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:00 am

I'm not surprised any more when I hear that anything once recommended as beneficial gets linked to an undesirable side effect with long term use. It would actually be more surprising if that wasn't true. I used to take a daily aspirin but gave it up a long time ago. Ditto vitamin supplements as some studies have even suggested possible negative outcomes from long term use. I had whittled my own supplement regimen down to a daily dose of fish oil until I read a post right here on this forum about a week ago suggesting this too may do more harm than good. So now I'm supplement free.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Reub » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:45 am

I believe there is overwhelming evidence that an aspirin regimen reduces the risk of many forms of cancer by as much as 40% and has a great effect on heart attacks and strokes as well. This is very enticing evidence even with a slightly greater risk in MCD!
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Benko » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:31 am

This is not medical advise.

I don't like asprin and don't take take it because of possible long tern side effects*.  I suspect that its effects can be had by curcumin supps, fish oil and GLA. 


*If I injure myself eg twisted ankle I will take perhaps a days worth of ibuprofen (along with alternative stuff) eg 600 mg every 6 hours x 3-4 just to minimize the amount of inflammation that will develop, but asprin or nasids lpong term I view as a bad idea.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Benko » Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:38 am

notsheigetz wrote: I'm not surprised any more when I hear that anything once recommended as beneficial gets linked to an undesirable side effect with long term use. It would actually be more surprising if that wasn't true. I used to take a daily aspirin but gave it up a long time ago. Ditto vitamin supplements as some studies have even suggested possible negative outcomes from long term use. I had whittled my own supplement regimen down to a daily dose of fish oil until I read a post right here on this forum about a week ago suggesting this too may do more harm than good. So now I'm supplement free.
Do you avoid eating foods that are reported to be healthy as well?

Anyone can claim anything and for any heath promoting substance you will always find articles talking about its possible detrimental effects, but there is overwhelming evidence that e.g. EPA/DHA are healthy, levels of vit D obtainable only by significant sun exposure or supplementation are vital.  Or you can wait 50 years till it is all sorted out.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by notsheigetz » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:02 pm

Benko wrote: Do you avoid eating foods that are reported to be healthy as well?
I try to eat a balanced diet and avoid the junk (call it the PP diet). I think you might be missing my point. Just because something is reported to be healthy doesn't mean you can't get too much of a good thing.

"but there is overwhelming evidence that e.g. EPA/DHA are healthy" Agreed, but the data on long term use of fish oil supplements is just now coming in. It doesn't follow that just because something has been shown to be healthy in some short term studies that it is therefore a good idea to take it in pill form on a daily basis.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Benko » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:06 pm

"Just because something is reported to be healthy doesn't mean you can't get too much of a good thing.

You fears of overdoing things will prevent you from coming anywhere near the benefits you could have.

Benko wrote: levels of vit D obtainable only by significant sun exposure or supplementation are vital. 
Unless you live in a sunny area, and get significant sun exposure you are almost certainly grossly deficient in Vit d, to say nothing of more optimal levels. 

One can put more energy into diet and get many important factors from diet with e.g regular consumption of uncooked olive oil, berries, dark green leafy veggies, carrots or squash, salmon or sardines, curries, cooked tomato products, etc.

But it is not clear you are doing that (the term balanced diet suggests not).  NB I'd far rather see you do the diet suggestions and only take supplements one cant get from food
Last edited by Benko on Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by notsheigetz » Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:40 pm

Benko wrote: "Just because something is reported to be healthy doesn't mean you can't get too much of a good thing.

You fears of overdoing things will prevent you from coming anywhere near the benefits you could have.
And your insults to another person's intelligence will keep you from being listened to.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Reub » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:42 pm

I believe that the sizeable beneficial effects of an aspirin regimen for reducing heart disease, cancer, etc. are indisputable. Are they not? If so, don't they warrant the slight increase in risk for GI bleeding and MCD?
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Benko » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:41 pm

Reub wrote: I believe that the sizeable beneficial effects of an aspirin regimen for reducing heart disease, cancer, etc. are indisputable. Are they not? If so, don't they warrant the slight increase in risk for GI bleeding and MCD?
I'm not concerned about gi bleeding.  There are other ways to produce the same (and superior benefits as asprin).

28% increased risk of hearing loss if regularly taking aspirin long-term (this was low dose asprin)
http://www.thenaturalrecoveryplan.com/a ... llers.html

Not a perfect study, and I am biased and have other personal concerns that may or may not generalize. 
YOu have to either follow your doctors orders or look into it and decide for yourself,


note well:
"Aspirin is not effective in protecting a person from a first cardiac event  a heart attack or stroke," said study author Dr. Antonio Nicolucci, head of the department of clinical pharmacology at nonprofit biomedical research organization Consorzio Mario Negri Sud in Santa Maria Imbaro, Italy. "In addition, taking aspirin has significant risks, and thus shouldn't be part of primary prevention unless you're at moderate to high risk of heart disease."
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Re: Aspirin

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:47 am

Reub wrote: Is it really a miracle drug?
No, aspirin just lowers inflammation which is the root cause of any disease.  However, there's better and safer alternatives to lowering inflammation.  Aspirin's efficacy is poor vs long-term side effects.

But, if that's all you can get Boobus Americanus to take, then its better than nothing at all. *shrug*
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Re: Aspirin

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:09 am

Reub wrote: I believe that the sizeable beneficial effects of an aspirin regimen for reducing heart disease, cancer, etc. are indisputable. Are they not? If so, don't they warrant the slight increase in risk for GI bleeding and MCD?
All aspirin does is lower inflammation and interferes with clotting to indirectly reduce a risk of heart attack or stroke.  That's all.  It has no other positive benefits.  Compared to the multitude of positive benefits of, say, fish oil, its not worth losing any sleep over.  Let's see, the serious list so far includes intestinal bleeding, macular degeneration, flu death, hemorrhaging, strokes, brain bleeding, crohn's disease and hearing loss.
The researchers found that although aspirin in conventional daily or alternate day doses reduced the risk of total cardiovascular disease events by 10 per cent, this was largely due to a reduction in non-fatal heart attacks. It did not include a reduction in other cardiovascular disease events including death from heart attack, or fatal or non-fatal stroke.

The study also showed that this benefit was almost entirely offset by a 30 per cent increase in risk of life-threatening or debilitating internal bleeding events. This means that while one cardiovascular disease event was averted for every 120 people treated with aspirin for about six years, one in 73 people suffered from potentially significant bleeding during the same period.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Reub » Mon Jan 28, 2013 8:34 am

I believe that there are studies that show that aspirin does reduce the risk of non-fatal first heart attacks as well as certain strokes and the aforementioned Alzheimer's Disease and Parkinson's. It also helps to prevent Deep Vein Thrombosis that can occur in the legs and then travel and kill you, doesn't it?

In addition the great effects on reducing cancer have recently been documented in the NY Times:

"One of the new studies examined patient data from dozens of large, long-term randomized controlled trials involving tens of thousands of men and women. Researchers at the University of Oxford found that after three years of daily aspirin use, the risk of developing cancer was reduced by almost 25 percent when compared with a control group not taking aspirin. After five years, the risk of dying of cancer was reduced by 37 percent among those taking aspirin.

A second paper that analyzed five large randomized controlled studies in Britain found that over six and a half years on average, daily aspirin use reduced the risk of metastatic cancer by 36 percent and the risk of adenocarcinomas — common solid cancers including colon, lung and prostate cancer — by 46 percent.

Daily aspirin use also reduced the risk of progressing to metastatic disease, particularly in patients with colorectal cancer, the studies reported."

Aren't these benefits of aspirin very significant? Have any scientific studies on fish oil or turmeric (which I also take) demonstrated comparable findings?
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Benko » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:28 am

Reub wrote:
Aren't these benefits of aspirin very significant?
Risk/benefit; not medical advise; your call; see above.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Reub » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:40 am

Benko, what is the scientific evidence of the risk and how significant is it? I think that the benefits may be huge.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Kriegsspiel » Mon Jan 28, 2013 12:21 pm

Reub wrote: I believe that the sizeable beneficial effects of an aspirin regimen for reducing heart disease, cancer, etc. are indisputable. Are they not? If so, don't they warrant the slight increase in risk for GI bleeding and MCD?
I will have to track down the title, but I read a book by a medical professional a while ago that turned a lot of commonly held beliefs upside down.  I don't want to put too much out there in case I'm not remembering correctly, but I think aspirin regimens were one of his things that was in the category of preparing for an unlikely/non-fatal/treatable event by increasing your chances of a worse thing happening.  IE, almost certain chance of GI bleeding to prevent a low likelihood of heart disease.  Something like that.  I'll see if I can find out the title of the book.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by MachineGhost » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:22 pm

Reub wrote: Aren't these benefits of aspirin very significant? Have any scientific studies on fish oil or turmeric (which I also take) demonstrated comparable findings?
It's "significant" in as far as anyone not understanding the mechanism, i.e. lowing COX-2 enzyme expression which overexpression is a necessary pre-condition for some cancer formation.  But, there are much safer natural bioagents that also do the exact same and have a lot of other positive benefits to boot that aspirin does not.  Even statins reduce the risk of cancer by lowering inflammation.  Yet, I'd be hard pressed to decide which is more toxic, the aspirin or the statin.

If you're taking a healthy variety of supplements and eating a Paleo 2.0 diet, adding a drug with negative side effects is sort of pointless. 

The real issue here is 50+ years of propaganda from the pharmaceutical industry complex in pushing us all to believe in "miracle drugs" when no such thing has ever existed and likely will never exist because the allopathic-reductionist model of the body just simply does not work without negative side effects, even at the genetic level (which is the future of drugs).  Just like government action, there are "unintended consequences" to using drugs.  The safest drug I can think of is the outdated, off patent, first generation blood pressure drugs that no one prescribes anymore because self-interested profit and state-of-the-art faddism is more important than safety or efficacy.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Reub » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:06 pm

The difference is that there is little or no money to be made on aspirin. There is no incentive for drug companies to slant or even manufacture positive results, unlike their other drugs.

Again there is scientific evidence that an aspirin regimen reduces the risk of many common cancers by close to 40%! It also reduces heart attacks significantly. Alzheimers disease as well. Parkinsons. What else has been scientifically shown to come close?
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Benko » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:32 pm

Reub wrote: The difference is that there is little or no money to be made on aspirin. There is no incentive for drug companies to slant or even manufacture positive results, unlike their other drugs.

Again there is scientific evidence that an aspirin regimen reduces the risk of many common cancers by close to 40%! It also reduces heart attacks significantly. Alzheimers disease as well. Parkinsons. What else has been scientifically shown to come close?
Reub,

If there is no money to be made on asprin, how much do you think there is to be made on tumeric?

You've made up your mind (which is your call and your right).  I've answered your questions (including link in my earlier post to research listing complications) and MG has given you more information including mechanism of some effects (cox).  Yes there is more research data on the asprin, but neither MG nor I would go near asprin long term.

Your body; your call.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Benko » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:34 pm

NB more research data existing on asprin obviously says nothing about whether asprin is more effective or safe.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by MachineGhost » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:05 am

Reub wrote: The difference is that there is little or no money to be made on aspirin. There is no incentive for drug companies to slant or even manufacture positive results, unlike their other drugs.

Again there is scientific evidence that an aspirin regimen reduces the risk of many common cancers by close to 40%! It also reduces heart attacks significantly. Alzheimers disease as well. Parkinsons. What else has been scientifically shown to come close?
I actually understand that, but if you look at the murky origins of aspirin being touted for disease prevention, you'll find that it is coming from the expensive brand-name aspirins that cost an arm and a leg over generic.  I believe St. Jude's and Bayer.  Now, maybe it doesn't cost an inflated $600 a month covered by insurance, but the difference is enough of a profit margin to exploit marketing, branding and sponsor self-serving research.  Same industry complex game, just with an OTC product.

I'd like to see the evidence that aspirin reduces risk of cancer by a whopping 40% and is also not offset by at least such an increase for any other disease.  As far as I know, aspirin only prevents sudden heart attacks and strokes from abnormal clots by interfering with platelet formation.  That's its primary raison d'etre supported by the conventional wisdom.

Also, do you know if you are personally a resistant or a non-responder to aspirin?  It would serve no benefit if you are in the 10-20% of people that are.  Or if you have Type 2 diabetes.
Last edited by MachineGhost on Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Reub » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:17 pm

This from the same article:

"A second paper that analyzed five large randomized controlled studies in Britain found that over six and a half years on average, daily aspirin use reduced the risk of metastatic cancer by 36 percent and the risk of adenocarcinomas — common solid cancers including colon, lung and prostate cancer — by 46 percent.

Daily aspirin use also reduced the risk of progressing to metastatic disease, particularly in patients with colorectal cancer, the studies reported.

The studies, led by Dr. Peter M. Rothwell, a professor of clinical neurology at the University of Oxford, were published in the medical journal The Lancet. A third paper by Dr. Rothwell and his colleagues, published in The Lancet Oncology, compared the findings of observational studies and randomized trials of aspirin."

That sure seems significant! Cancer and heart disease prevention is much more beneficial, at least to me, than slightly increasing a risk of hearing loss or vision or even GI bleeding.
Last edited by Reub on Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by Gumby » Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:28 pm

Reub wrote:Cancer and heart disease prevention is much more beneficial, at least to me, than slightly increasing a risk of hearing loss or vision or even GI bleeding.
Proponents of daily Aspirin generally downplay the long term risks of aspirin use.

See:

http://njms2.umdnj.edu/hwmedweb/archive ... rchive.htm
http://google.com/search?q=aspirin+internal+bleeding

It's also worth pointing out that any "benefit/harm" you may read about for any drug/food/whatever in a newspaper headline or media segment is often wrong. Here's why...

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/arc ... ce/308269/

Media editors don't have the scientific knowledge to filter bad scientific findings or understand that correlation does not equal causation. So, the flawed studies that tend to make headlines soon become "conventional wisdom".
Last edited by Gumby on Tue Jan 29, 2013 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Aspirin

Post by MachineGhost » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:54 am

Reub wrote: That sure seems significant! Cancer and heart disease prevention is much more beneficial, at least to me, than slightly increasing a risk of hearing loss or vision or even GI bleeding.
To me, a 15% probability of getting macular degeneration or 10% for GI bleeding at the 10 year mark is not "slight".  I already have significant amounts of hearing loss and would hardly want to speed it up even more!

I would rather use safer and direct anti-cancer bioagents, i.e. Vitamin D, curcumin, iodine, etc..
Last edited by MachineGhost on Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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