LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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LAPD Response in Dorner Case

Post by MediumTex »

Okay, so it looks like the LAPD found Christopher Dorner and supervised his cremation, so that part of the story is over.  Dorner was a murderer and he's dead now.

However, as I look at other parts of the police response to this case, it's almost like the LAPD went out of its way to sort of validate some of the concerns that apparently pushed Droner over the edge in the first place--i.e., that the LAPD routinely engages in the use of excessive force and takes a generally sloppy approach to police work.

Two incidents in particular stand out for being almost comically outrageous.

First, early last Thursday morning two Hispanic women in a blue Toyota Tacoma pickup were delivering newspapers.  Reports had been that Dorner was driving a gray Nissan Titan pickup.  Apparently, police saw this blue Toyota Tacoma pickup in the same neighborhood as one of the LAPD officers who Dorner mentioned in his manifesto, and even though it was a different make, model and color from the vehicle Dorner was supposed to be driving and it was occupied by two Hispanic women instead of one black man, at least seven officers simply opened fire on the truck, hitting one of the women twice in the back and injuring the second woman with flying glass.  It looks like they fired 30 rounds or so, hitting their target with two of those rounds.
Law enforcement sources told The Times that at least seven officers opened fire. On Friday, the area was pockmarked with bullet holes in cars, trees, garage doors and roofs.

It was around 5 a.m. in Torrance on Thursday and police from nearby El Segundo had seen a pickup truck exit a freeway and head in the general direction of the Redbeam Avenue residence of a high-ranking Los Angeles police official, which was being guarded by a group of LAPD officers.

A radio call warned that Dorner might be on his way.

A few minutes later, a truck slowly rolled down the quiet residential street.

As the vehicle approached the house, officers opened fire, unloading a barrage of bullets into the back of the truck. When the shooting stopped, they quickly realized their mistake.

Residents said they wanted to know what happened.

"How do you mistake two Hispanic women, one who is 71, for a large black male?" said Richard Goo, 62, who counted five bullet holes in the entryway to his house.
Link to story

Here is a picture of the rear of the truck after the police shooting:

Image

It looks like the LAPD response so far has been to offer to buy the ladies a new truck (I'm not making this up).  Read more about the new truck offer [url=http://]here[/url].

***

The second incident also happened early last Thursday when a white man driving another pickup that was not silver and not a Nissan also had police simply open fire on his vehicle with no warning.
David Perdue was on his way to sneak in some surfing before work Thursday morning when police flagged him down. They asked who he was and where he was headed, then sent him on his way.

Seconds later, Perdue's attorney said, a Torrance police cruiser slammed into his pickup and officers opened fire; none of the bullets struck Perdue.

His pickup, police later explained, matched the description of the one belonging to Christopher Jordan Dorner — the ex-cop who has evaded authorities after allegedly killing three and wounding two more. But the pickups were different makes and colors. And Perdue looks nothing like Dorner: He's several inches shorter and about a hundred pounds lighter. And Perdue is white; Dorner is black.

"I don't want to use the word buffoonery but it really is unbridled police lawlessness," said Robert Sheahen, Perdue's attorney. "These people need training and they need restraint."
Link to story

***

Do these stories strike anyone else as bizarre?  What kind of cops open fire on a vehicle that doesn't match the description of the vehicle they are looking for and without even identifying who is in the car in the first place?  It's almost like it was the police who were on a vigilante mission to take out Dorner, which makes the whole thing look more like an intra-gang vendetta spilling out into the streets rather than a piece of professional police work focused on trying to locate and apprehend a murderer. 

Of course, when they found him the police radio traffic included the comment: "burn this motherfucker" shortly before the cabin burned down, and now the police are saying that they did not intend to burn down the cabin.  Really?  That's crazy.  How can they say such a thing when their own radio traffic is talking about their clear intention to burn the cabin.  Do they think people are that stupid?
In a separate clip carried by a local news channel, police are heard to say, “Fucking burn this motherfucker,”?  and “burn that fucking house down.”? This audio appears to be from earlier in the siege following the initial shootout between Dorner and cops.

Link to story
Why not just come out and tell the truth and say: "Our officers were REALLY pissed off at this guy, and everyone knew he would never be taken into custody alive.  We just decided at the scene that burning him alive would be the best way to make him suffer for what he did to us.  Apparently he shot himself in the head before he could suffer in the flames, but we did our best to make him suffer.  We hoped he would suffer.  Maybe he did suffer a little before he died."

Very strange and sad story overall.  Dorner was clearly a murderer who needed to be stopped, but I think that the LAPD is probably going to need to do more than buy a new truck for an old woman who was shot in the back to smooth over the reckless aggressiveness of their overall response.  That's my perspective on this, anyway.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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Simonjester wrote: very illegal too, they declared themselves judge jury and executioner, and Waco'ed him, i don't remember that being a part of the American justice system...
Is anyone surprised?  California is the same state that spawned the cop who shot a man in the back while he was held face down by two other officers because he apparently couldn't tell the difference between his tazer and his pistol.  Oh yeah, the man died and the cop got 2 freaking years for blatant homicide (at best).

I'm particularly sympathetic to vigilante justice in certain situations where there's no fear of mistaken identity and justice has no chance of being served.  The names of these officers will be entered into the public record at some point and there's not a snowball's chance in hell of them facing justice.  If it had been my wife and daughter that had been gunned down by 7 cops without cause there would probably be a manhunt for me at some point.  Luckily these LEO's incompetence extends to their marksmanship and both victims survived.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

Post by Bean »

I know this comment will be viewed as political, but this is why law abiding citizens should be armed just as much as the police.

Another thing about this is the lense of the news coverage.  There were some people defending this guy.  Makes me nuts.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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MediumTex wrote: Do these stories strike anyone else as bizarre?  What kind of cops open fire on a vehicle that doesn't match the description of the vehicle they are looking for and without even identifying who is in the car in the first place?  It's almost like it was the police who were on a vigilante mission to take out Dorner, which makes the whole thing look more like an intra-gang vendetta spilling out into the streets rather than a piece of professional police work focused on trying to locate and apprehend a murderer.
They were frightened. Dorner was one of them. He knew their tactics. He was out to get them.

Cops are used to being in control. Everything about their job, their uniform, their weapons and armor, the media--it all reinforces this. Dorner ripped that all away and showed the world how little control they really had. It made them jumpy and nervous. They were just behaving the way a frightened predator behaves: it lashes out against anything in an attempt to re-assert its dominance.

This whole sorry affair did very little to bolster my already very low opinion of the police.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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TennPaGa wrote: I don't have a TV, so I'm curious... How did the 3 main cable news networks (FNN, CNN, MSNBC) cover this?  Was any of the coverage consistent with the views here (i.e. skeptical of the LAPD)?
I haven't watched any of the TV coverage of the event.  I have mostly just been reading the various L.A. Times stories and the comments to them.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

Post by Reub »

Simonjester wrote:   very illegal too, they declared themselves judge jury and executioner, and Waco'ed him, i don't remember that being a part of the American justice system...
Possibly they are just emulating our POTUS?
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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Reub wrote:
Simonjester wrote:   very illegal too, they declared themselves judge jury and executioner, and Waco'ed him, i don't remember that being a part of the American justice system...
Possibly they are just emulating our POTUS?
Different manifestations of the same basic institutional dysfunction. 

Violence always spins out of control, no matter how much you try to focus and contain it.

This is a lesson that all levels of government are constantly in the process of learning, forgetting, and then re-learning.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

Post by MediumTex »

Does anyone remember the final scene with the armored bus in that Clint Eastwood film "The Gauntlet"?

I was thinking about the bullet-riddled bus from the movie when I saw that bullet-riddled truck that the newspaper carriers were driving.

As over the top as that scene seemed at the time, in retrospect maybe it wasn't all that far off the mark (except, of course, that the rogue cop in the film wasn't killed).
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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MediumTex wrote: It's almost like it was the police who were on a vigilante mission to take out Dorner, which makes the whole thing look more like an intra-gang vendetta spilling out into the streets rather than a piece of professional police work focused on trying to locate and apprehend a murderer.
You hit the nail on the head, MT. Dorner made this personal by killing multiple police officers in multiple shootouts. After that happened, he was wanted dead or deader by the entire police force--regardless of the rule of law.

As soon as I read the police statements in the news that the cabin fire was accidental, I had to laugh out loud. There's no way in hell it was accidental. The police wanted Dorner to burn in hell, and they clearly did their best to speed that process along.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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Simonjester wrote:
Bean wrote: I know this comment will be viewed as political, but this is why law abiding citizens should be armed just as much as the police.
and own a fire proof house.. 
rammed earth looks like a better and better investment every day
There's the question of what to make the roof out of. Hard to avoid wood unless you're building an earthen dome home.

I keep trying to go over in my mind what I would do in a situation like that. I'm standing around in my vacation home, minding my own business when an extremely large and muscular man wearing body armor (I'm sure) and carrying a large rifle (I'm more sure) busts down my door and tells me to tie up my wife.

Stronger front door? I guess he might move onto another house if it was taking more than a second or two to enter. Maybe a barking dog might have caused him to try another house?

I dunno, man. It's pretty close to a nightmare scenario for a homeowner.
Simonjester wrote: not much of anything out there will stop military grade siege equipment or hardware.
rammed earth is bullet proof and fire proof, a steep tin roof wont burn easily, bastions and high small ground floor windows with well thought out fields of fire to keep attackers at rifle distance from all sides, reinforced doors exposed to those bastions make door ramming troublesome, if anything that can get past all that shows up, its time to sneak out the secret exit tunnel ;)

standing your ground against a serious siege is movie fiction, but keeping stray madmen out altogether, local police or small paramilitary groups out (for a limited time) is not impossible, making a house with those features built in that still looked "normal" and didn't stand out would be an interesting project..

it never hurts to imagine what you would do, where you could go for cover, what escape routes you have, and even what the best spots to shoot from and towards are (if you are a gun owner)... no matter what kind of house or apartment you live in, if nothing else its a fun exercise
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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MangoMan wrote:
Bean wrote: I know this comment will be viewed as political, but this is why law abiding citizens should be armed just as much as the police.
Regardless of which side of the gun control debate you fall on, please explain to me how the 2 hispanic women being armed would have helped here. If 7 cops opened fire on them, don't you realize if the gunfire was returned, the shooting wouldn't have stopped until the 2 women were dead? How would that solve anything? You'd have two dead, innocent victims that would still be alive if they had remained unarmed. At best, they would have taken a cop or 2 down with them, which would also solve nothing, except to get them a death-row sentence if they somehow survived. Sounds like a lose-lose proposition.
When law enforcement stops obeying the law, the citizenship needs the capability to defend itself.  Shoot first, ask question later defeats the entire reason there is a police force to protect the very people they shot.

Since you are asking a question that narrows the debate to your advantage, let me ask you the inverse of your question.  Is it ok for the police to shoot at unarmed women in vaguely similar truck to a fugitive with zero verification?
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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When first I moved to California, I made a resolution to avoid interacting with LAPD entirely. Even from afar they had a reputation for being corrupt, trigger happy, and believing themselves to be above the law. Living here has only strengthened that impression. We'd be safer without them.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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KevinW wrote: When first I moved to California, I made a resolution to avoid interacting with LAPD entirely. Even from afar they had a reputation for being corrupt, trigger happy, and believing themselves to be above the law. Living here has only strengthened that impression. We'd be safer without them.
I know that this is probably overstating it a bit, but sometimes the LAPD looks like just one more gang fighting for control of the streets.

Think about how outraged the public would be if a gang had been involved in settling a vendetta against a former gang member and in the process of attempting to kill the former gang member in dramatic style by filling his vehicle with bullets (sort of like the way they killed James Caan's character in The Godfather) they instead mistakenly shot up a vehicle with two innocent women who were simply delivering newspapers.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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There was a gallows-humor meme going, counting who caused more carnage, Dorner vs. LAPD. The last time I checked the "score" LAPD was ahead in shootings but Dorner was ahead in fatalities. I don't know the final number since keeping track was getting depressing.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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KevinW wrote: There was a gallows-humor meme going, counting who caused more carnage, Dorner vs. LAPD. The last time I checked the "score" LAPD was ahead in shootings but Dorner was ahead in fatalities. I don't know the final number since keeping track was getting depressing.
I would be pissed if that had been my cabin that they burned down.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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MangoMan wrote: I have a FOID card. I'm not trying to skew the debate, and I agree that is not ok for the police to do what they did. I'm merely wondering how having guns would have helped these women in this particular situation.
The truth is that it would not have helped them. In fact, maybe they even did own guns. Let's even go out on a limb and say that they both had concealed carry permits (unlikely) and were packing modern semi-auto handguns with grandfathered 17-round magazines (even more unlikely) or even that they had a disassembled AR-15 in a locked case under a seat (approaching fantasyland).

The best thing in their situation would be not to return fire, but to to drive away at top speed, which I sincerely hope they did! And if they did return fire, they probably would have been shot to death (although given the LAPD's marksmanship, maybe not). Tactically, returning fire from a surprised position with no cover against seven prepared, armed, and armored assailants when you're already inside a functioning means of high-speed escape strikes me as bad idea.

None of this is meant in any way to disparage citizens from being armed, even heavily armed, or even protecting themselves against unprovoked aggressive violence originating from any source. But it's a good idea to make sure you're generating real, actual safety through your deployment of an armed response, and not just becoming a bullet-riddled martyr. That may help others, but not you or your dependents.
Last edited by Pointedstick on Thu Feb 14, 2013 9:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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MangoMan wrote:
Bean wrote: I know this comment will be viewed as political, but this is why law abiding citizens should be armed just as much as the police.
Regardless of which side of the gun control debate you fall on, please explain to me how the 2 hispanic women being armed would have helped here. If 7 cops opened fire on them, don't you realize if the gunfire was returned, the shooting wouldn't have stopped until the 2 women were dead? How would that solve anything? You'd have two dead, innocent victims that would still be alive if they had remained unarmed. At best, they would have taken a cop or 2 down with them, which would also solve nothing, except to get them a death-row sentence if they somehow survived. Sounds like a lose-lose proposition.
California is full of nutbags and our justice system is a bad joke.  However, I find it hard to believe that we're so far gone as a society that any jury could be found that would sentence 2 mail ladies to death for killing one or two cops when they are attacked by 7 cops out of the blue and while engaged in perfectly lawful activity.

Having said that, you are absolutely correct that when out numbered and outgunned your chances of survival are slim.  Being armed just gives you an option other than "lay down and die."  Nobody is advocating that it's a great option.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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The amount of police arrogance and ineptitude displayed in this whole incident is astounding.  In a situation where they should be heroes, somehow they succeeded in making a mass murderer come across as more collected and in control than the police "protecting" us.    Acting clearly out of revenge, throwing due process out the window, blatant disregard for collateral life and property -- they sadly acted no better than the man they were chasing. 
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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Tyler wrote: The amount of police arrogance and ineptitude displayed in this whole incident is astounding.  In a situation where they should be heroes, somehow they succeeded in making a mass murderer come across as more collected and in control than the police "protecting" us.    Acting clearly out of revenge, throwing due process out the window, blatant disregard for collateral life and property -- they sadly acted no better than the man they were chasing.
If I was the chief, I would tell my officers something like the following:

Guys (and gals), when we are getting ready to execute a suspect that we really hate by burning down the structure he is hiding in, PLEASE don't get on the radio and talk about "burning that motherfucker down."  This is just a suggestion, but I would say that a best practice in that situation is not to use the word "fire", "burn" or any similar terms on a channel that might be monitored by the media or the public.  Our PR organization does a good job of smoothing these things over, but let's not make their job any harder than it already is.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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To put the cherry on top of this whole fiasco, it now looks like some or all of the people who helped lead the police to Dorner may not get paid any reward money due to a loophole in the language of the reward notices. Specifically, Dorner was never "apprehended":
A legal loophole could prevent good Samaritans, instrumental in ending the manhunt for a fugitive ex-cop accused of killing four people, from claiming more than $1 million in reward money because Christopher Dorner died and was not captured.

Last weekend, Los Angeles Mayor Antonio Villaraigosa pledged $1 million, sourced from private individuals, companies and unions, "for information that will lead to Mr. Dorner's capture."

The L.A. City Council followed up with its own promise of a $100,000 reward, for information "leading to the identification, apprehension and conviction of Christopher Dorner."

But Dorner, accused of killing four people and threatening the lives of several dozen more, was never captured, apprehended or convicted. Instead, he died following a standoff with police near Big Bear, Calif., when the cabin in which he was barricaded burned down with him inside.


Source: http://news.yahoo.com/legal-loophole-co ... ories.html
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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Tortoise wrote: To put the cherry on top of this whole fiasco, it now looks like some or all of the people who helped lead the police to Dorner may not get paid any reward money due to a loophole in the language of the reward notices. Specifically, Dorner was never "apprehended":
Ah...  So perhaps the guy on the radio yelling to "burn that motherfucker down" was the police accountant!  The whole thing is so screwed up that actually wouldn't surprise me any more. 

-faceplam-

 
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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Tyler wrote:
Tortoise wrote: To put the cherry on top of this whole fiasco, it now looks like some or all of the people who helped lead the police to Dorner may not get paid any reward money due to a loophole in the language of the reward notices. Specifically, Dorner was never "apprehended":
Ah...  So perhaps the guy on the radio yelling to "burn that motherfucker down" was the police accountant!  The whole thing is so screwed up that actually wouldn't surprise me any more. 

-faceplam-
I really hope that no one took that reward seriously.

If the reward was always premised upon him being apprehended, and the police were always intent upon killing him prior to apprehending him, then the reward could have been a trillion dollars, it wouldn't have mattered.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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I was watching an in-depth CNN program about Dorner the other day, and surprisingly, most of the people they interviewed who knew Dorner said that he--although clearly having some hang-ups and emotional issues--had an extremely strong sense of integrity and right vs. wrong. They basically said that if Dorner said he was telling the truth, he probably was.

Dorner filed a report against his training officer for the use of excessive force against a mentally ill man during an arrest, but the LAPD ruled that the report was false and they fired Dorner for supposedly lying. Because Dorner prized honesty and integrity above all else, that enraged him and made him flip out. He wanted desperately to clear his good name. And the rest is history.

Anyways, it's sounding like Dorner was probably telling the truth about his training officer and about being fired unjustly. The LAPD rejected Dorner and his honesty the way an immune system rejects an invading virus. Dorner clearly did the wrong thing by going on that killing rampage, but it's interesting how he may have accomplished his main objective of drawing national attention to the true nature of the LAPD and other law enforcement agencies.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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Tortoise wrote: I was watching an in-depth CNN program about Dorner the other day, and surprisingly, most of the people they interviewed who knew Dorner said that he--although clearly having some hang-ups and emotional issues--had an extremely strong sense of integrity and right vs. wrong. They basically said that if Dorner said he was telling the truth, he probably was.

Dorner filed a report against his training officer for the use of excessive force against a mentally ill man during an arrest, but the LAPD ruled that the report was false and they fired Dorner for supposedly lying. Because Dorner prized honesty and integrity above all else, that enraged him and made him flip out. He wanted desperately to clear his good name. And the rest is history.

Anyways, it's sounding like Dorner was probably telling the truth about his training officer and about being fired unjustly. The LAPD rejected Dorner and his honesty the way an immune system rejects an invading virus. Dorner clearly did the wrong thing by going on that killing rampage, but it's interesting how he may have accomplished his main objective of drawing national attention to the true nature of the LAPD and other law enforcement agencies.
Dorner carjacked a man at gunpoint. He invaded a private residence, tied up an elderly couple, and stole their truck. He used someone else's home as the location of his last stand, committed suicide inside of it, and his actions caused the police to burn it to the ground. He murdered innocents, including the child and soon-to-be son-in-law of a police commissioner he believed wronged him.

It's hard for me to reconcile those deeds with any kind of integrity or moral compass, no matter how sincerely he believed his bad actions served a good purpose, or however polite he was to his victims (according to some news stories I've read).

I would agree though that he was very successful in drawing attention to the violence and brutality of the LAPD.
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Re: LAPD Response in Dorner Case

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I agree fully that Dorner's supposed integrity went completely out the window once he flipped out and his violence started affecting innocent people.

I guess the main thing that stood out to me were the reports by people who knew Dorner personally that he was such an honest person with such a rigid code of personal ethics prior to the LAPD fiasco. I wouldn't have guessed that at all if I hadn't watched the interviews.
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