The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:32 pm

MachineGhost wrote:
Fri May 23, 2014 11:36 am
Got my teeth cleaned for the first time since I started the regime, and there was hardly anything to remove.  No painful pulling or scraping requiring numbing agent; no flossing required.  But I had staining which took the most amount of time to deal with.  Overall, it took about 30 minutes.  I figure that's from either when I used Schulze's herbal formula which stains everything, the Closys reacting and oxidizing or a new idea this morning, the beet-based sublingual SOD.  We'll see.
Yesterday was also my first teeth cleaning since I started the regime in early July. My last one had been January 2020. I'd prior been getting them every four months so that it'd be less painful from the accumulation being removed from the last time it'd been removed.

This was the first time with this dentist office after 46 years with my prior dentist. Thus, first time with this dental hygienist. She remarked that my mouth care must be good because my gums were excellent and my teeth were also looking good. She found little tartar or calculus.

I had gone there concerned because my teeth at that point had a heavy brown stain, something I'd never prior experienced. But she was not concerned at all with the staining and easily removed it.

With my prior hygienist because I am so sensitive to anything going on in my mouth I'd always get a "topical" to numb my mouth somewhat while the teeth cleaning was going on. Even with that topical I'd still feel pain during the cleaning.

Yesterday I felt ZERO pain with the teeth cleaning. Had never prior experienced that. No topical had been used. I don't know if that was due to the new hygienist being superior to all the ones I'd ever prior had or it was due to the Dr. Ellie regime I'd been faithfully following for the prior five months. I had stopped flossing totally after starting her regime.

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:53 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:46 pm
Reub wrote: I tried a WaterPik recently and it seems to have cracked two of my fillings. Dentists must love these things!
That is simply not possible. The force of the water is not powerful enough to even damage your gums, let alone your teeth and fillings. You probably broke them by grinding / clenching in your sleep, or biting accidentally on something hard like an unpopped popcorn kernel or olive pit. Or maybe the filling was past its useful life and would have needed replacement regardless.
I was going to ask you this question regarding popcorn. My first meal of the day is not usually until early afternoon and it is 13 cups of plain popcorn made in one of those 1980s hot air popcorn makers. While it is popping out I spray some olive oil on it then liberally spread nutritional yeast on it when it is done.

Are there any issues eating popcorn when it relates to mouth and teeth health? Since it is corn I assume that it is pure carbohydrates? Though I was surprised to see in the package how much protein is in popcorn. Seems like a a major danger to look out for when eating popcorn is what you have above?

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:56 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2015 2:54 pm
MachineGhost wrote: Of interest, here's the world's first dental citizen science campaign.  We'll put MangoMan out of business, yet! ;)

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ubio ... icrobiome/
We don't need any help; we are putting ourselves out of business on our own with  :-X  fluoride.  :'(

So let's say you get the test [not covered by insurance!!] and it actually isn't total BS. What is your dentist going to do with the information? Alter your saliva [not possible, and if it was: not covered by insurance!!]? I ran a similar test on my dog for an allergy issue and the test came back listing 20 different things he may be allergic to. Like grass, and carpet fibers. What am I supposed to do with that information? Not let him pee outside? Remove the wall-to-wall carpet covering roughly 2000 sq ft of floor? If it's not actionable, or expensive to rectify, what's the point?
Here the famed MachineGhost encounters and is confronted by the equally famed MangoMan logic!

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:05 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:15 pm
Abstract
J Clin Dent. 2011;22(1):1-5.
An in vitro comparative study determining bactericidal activity of stabilized chlorine dioxide and other oral rinses.
Drake D1, Villhauer AL.
Author information

    1Dows Institute for Dental Research, College of Dentistry, University of Iowa, Iowa City, IA, USA. david-drake@uiowa.edu

Abstract
OBJECTIVE:

The study was conducted to determine the bactericidal activity of a stabilized chlorine dioxide oral rinse (CloSYS Oral Rinse) compared to products currently available on the market.
METHODS:

Oral bacteria associated with gingivitis and periodontitis were exposed to rinses for one minute and five minutes. The numbers of colony forming units per milliliter (CFU/ml) were measured prior to and following exposure to determine the bactericidal activity.
RESULTS:

As expected, Listerine and Crest Pro-Health demonstrated complete kill on all bacteria exposed within one minute. Breath Rx exhibited the weakest levels of bactericidal effects overall. CloSYS and chlorhexidine rinses proved identical 100% kills against the periodontal pathogens at five minutes; in some cases, CloSYS oral rinse achieved a higher kill at the one-minute mark over the chlorhexidine rinse.
CONCLUSION:

The results demonstrated that CloSYS Oral Rinse has potential for providing a therapeutic benefit, making it an attractive option to induce compliance in patients concerned about taste and tooth discoloration during oral health therapy.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21290979

________________


Most of my periodontist colleagues recommend Listerine. You can also occasionally use hydrogen peroxide diluted 50/50 with water to get the oxigenizing effect Closys delivers if you think it is beneficial. Chlorhexidine is available by prescription only and has the negative side effect of temporarily staining your teeth brown.
I just checked and Closys does not contain chlorhexidine which makes sense since you clearly state it is only available by prescription. However, could the Closys have been the source of the brown staining on my teeth? And, what does the "temporarily" mean? That it can be removed mechanically?

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:09 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:57 am
Jack Jones wrote:
MangoMan wrote: As expected, Listerine and Crest Pro-Health demonstrated complete kill on all bacteria exposed within one minute. Breath Rx exhibited the weakest levels of bactericidal effects overall. CloSYS and chlorhexidine rinses proved identical 100% kills against the periodontal pathogens at five minutes; in some cases, CloSYS oral rinse achieved a higher kill at the one-minute mark over the chlorhexidine rinse.
It seems like there would be no benefit to using both, but I've definitely noticed a difference in breath quality after ceasing Closys use.
Get yourself a good quality tongue scraper [I like the one made by Philips/Discus Dental, makers of BreathRx]. Rinse with Listerine, floss, brush your teeth, scrape your tongue, rinse out the toothpaste, and finish with a bit of diluted peroxide, making sure the peroxide gets to the back of your tongue. If your breath still smells, you probably have bigger issues like gum disease.

Standard disclaimer: This is general advice and you should have your dentist evaluate your specific needs.
Is it possible for you to provide us with the Amazon URL for this item? I just did an Amazon search and could not seem close to finding it. Thanks!

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:21 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:41 am
Pug may question this, but as a 6 month experiment I have been brushing exclusively with Xylitol.

I am about 3 months in. There is no doubt that I have less plaque buildup and I have had zero gum issues. In the past, certainly every few weeks I'd have some level of gum irritation here or there for whatever reason, none since starting Xylitol.

You can search for how it works. And I'll give an update after my next checkup.

I'd also like to ask Pug, toothpaste is all marketing for the most part, right? If I look at "active" ingredients, it is mainly either Sodium Fluoride or Stannous Fluoride, and if I have one really expensive "Helps prevent bleeding gums" toothpaste with one vs. a cheaper alternative with the same active ingredient, they are basically the same?
Cortopassi!!!

One of the great minority in this topic that had been going on for about five years at the time of your response above who is is still active in the forum. Almost all the other participants except for you and pubchief seem to be long gone.

What is the update on your mouth care and its results?

If I am remembering correctly, Dr. Ellie loves Sodium Flouride but hates Stannous Flouride.

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:24 pm

WiseOne wrote:
Fri May 11, 2018 7:26 am
I kind of ignored the fluoride controversy for a while, but recently switched to a non-fluoride toothpaste. I figure that with the water fluoridated it doesn't make sense to double up given that NYC's water hovers around the EPA safe limit as it is. And also figured easier than messing around with reverse osmosis systems.

The one I'm using is Dr. Bronner's which uses coconut oil & flour. At my last checkup, the hygienist commented that my teeth were cleaner and with less plaque than usual. And, no cavities. Sample size of one visit but that's intriguing. I'm sticking with the plan.
Dr. Ellie is against water flouridation and recommends filtering it out if is is in your water supply. I checked with my town and my water is not flouridated.

She does recommend some exposure to flouridation but only in the context of her proscribed regime as so well described by MachineGhost in the first post in this topic. Or, by going to Dr. Ellie's web site. You can buy and read either or both of her two books. Or, you can basically get almost all of it for free on her web site.

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:27 pm

Mark Leavy wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 6:48 pm
It's really not that hard. Just stop eating carbohydrates.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK8259/

It balances the PH in your mouth (tartar, decay) and starves S mutans. (caries)
Dr. Ellie in her books well explains that it is not the sugar per se that causes the cavities but the food the sugar feeds the bad bacteria which grow enough sufficiently to then damage your teeth.

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:31 pm

thisisallen wrote:
Sun May 20, 2018 9:40 am
Mark Leavy wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 6:48 pm
It's really not that hard. Just stop eating carbohydrates.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK8259/

It balances the PH in your mouth (tartar, decay) and starves S mutans. (caries)
Mark, isn’t that like “robbing Peter to pay Paul” because carbs have good benefits also, especially if you’re a vegetarian.
Using Xylitol mints or gum will create more saliva in your mouth to help keep the bacteria from damaging the teeth.
Exactly in line with Dr. Ellie's regime.

She says you can eat whatever you want as long as you follow up the bad food by finishing the meal with eating alkaline food to counteract the acid producing food you eat. Or, follow what you prescribe above. She explains that the xylitol mints or gum allows your saliva to produce substances which do not promote the production of the bad bacteria but, instead, results in their deaths.

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:34 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:19 pm
Some people do better eating few carbs and more fat, some people do better eating carbs and fewer fats. Everyone just needs to figure out which kind of people they are.
I assume that this can only be done through trial and error?

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:37 pm

Cortopassi wrote:
Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:29 pm
Cortopassi wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 9:41 am
Pug may question this, but as a 6 month experiment I have been brushing exclusively with Xylitol.

I am about 3 months in. There is no doubt that I have less plaque buildup and I have had zero gum issues. In the past, certainly every few weeks I'd have some level of gum irritation here or there for whatever reason, none since starting Xylitol.

You can search for how it works. And I'll give an update after my next checkup.

I'd also like to ask Pug, toothpaste is all marketing for the most part, right? If I look at "active" ingredients, it is mainly either Sodium Fluoride or Stannous Fluoride, and if I have one really expensive "Helps prevent bleeding gums" toothpaste with one vs. a cheaper alternative with the same active ingredient, they are basically the same?
Just got back from my latest visit after 6 months of nearly exclusive Xylitol brushing.

--Dentist rolled her eyes when I told her what I did
--No cavities
--Gum probing numbers seemed better than last time, a lot of 1s and 2s

Overall, I think I had a lot less intermittent gum problems strictly using Xylitol. She told me I should split the difference, brush once a day with fluoride, once with Xylitol. I can live with that.

So my teeth didn't fall out and my gums seem healthier. I would say it was at least on par if not slightly better than fluoride toothpaste for me, for a short time period.
Here was an update... but I will still take one as of today! Thanks!

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:43 pm

williswine wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 4:08 pm
vnatale wrote:
Sat Nov 16, 2019 9:24 pm
williswine wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:38 am
Peelu USA (no affiliation) sells dental fibers made from the same tree as that chewing stick. I have been using http://peelu.com/dental-fibers/spearmint-25-oz/ for years now and my dental hygienist is always amazed at how little plaque I have. I don't really like the taste of it but it leaves my mouth and teeth so clean and it does not leave a toothpaste after taste that sometimes affects my sleep. Added bonus is that it is not a liquid so travels really easy. Oh, and it lasts a long long time (just like my crystal deodorant stick).

I'm however wondering if the system mentioned in the first post wouldn't do an even better job even though it certainly costs a lot more and has many more chemicals involved.  Wonder what Dr Ellie would say, maybe don't change a thing!
Link does not work. And, peelu seems to no longer exist? With the endorsement above, I was going to buy some!

Vinny
Vinny, I didn't realize you were PMing people until now. I haven't used Peelu in a long while as I can't find it as easily as I once did. I've switched to the system in the first post. It prevents tartar buildup big time so my hygienist rarely if ever has to use powered tools. I have had some decay under this system but I can't always follow it to the letter when I'm on the road...
When did you make the switch? Have you stayed with it? What have the latest results been?

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:48 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Sun Apr 19, 2020 12:15 pm
Brush 3x/day. Change brush every 2 months. Run thru dishwasher every 2 weeks.
Floss at bedtime.
Use listerine before each brushing and/or flossing. It will not discolor your teeth. Chlorhexidine rinse will, but that is by Rx only.
Night guard is a good idea if ANY signs of grinding or clenching. Damage is slow and progressive.
Time between professional cleaning varies by patient. I have some that could come once a year or maybe less and be fine. I have others that should probably come every 2 months but don't.
Not sure why your guy would continue to practice at 73 unless he is bad with money or hates his wife and is trying to avoid her.
Holistic dentistry is a crock/scam in my opinion, YMMV.

Not sure what I will do when this ends. My son can take over my practice completely or I can continue part time. Prob depends on how draconian the new regulations to practice are and how serious the threat of ill health is to me. I am working now for fun, not necessity. Full time would be too much, but 12 hours per week is still enjoyable and my back is a lot happier.
That is the most aggressive recommendation I've seen anywhere. I think I've seen the recommendation for six months. If I use one toothbrush (electric) in the morning and a different one at night (manual) does that extend your change recommendation to 4 months for each?

Regarding the cleaning of the brush. Dr. Ellie recommends swishing the brush in Listerine for a few seconds and then rinsing it in water. Letting the brush dry for a full 24 hours -- hence the need for two different brushes. She says bacteria die with no moisture? Thus, if you used the same brush for both brushings it'd not sufficiently dry out and bacteria would continue to multiply on the brush.

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Wed Dec 09, 2020 7:54 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Wed Dec 09, 2020 6:13 pm
Trident has the same amount of xylitol as Ellie's but is half the price.
Where can I find the list of ingredients in the Trident xylitol gum? I looked at one Trident product at Amazon but could not find any list of ingredients.

I buy the bulk version at Ellie's and at 15% or 20% off.

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by thisisallen » Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:32 am

This is a good place to buy the mints (and all vitamin/supplement oriented products). They regularly have sales at least 10% - they send emails to their mailing list - and free shipping on $50+ orders.

https://www.vitacost.com/productsearch. ... ol%20mints
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:45 am

thisisallen wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:32 am
This is a good place to buy the mints (and all vitamin/supplement oriented products). They regularly have sales at least 10% - they send emails to their mailing list - and free shipping on $50+ orders.

https://www.vitacost.com/productsearch. ... ol%20mints
Thanks!

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Kriegsspiel » Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:29 pm

Man I change my toothbrush every month or so. It's something you put in your mouth every day, no need to let it get disgusting. They're 85 cents.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:12 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:29 pm
Man I change my toothbrush every month or so. It's something you put in your mouth every day, no need to let it get disgusting. They're 85 cents.
85 cents!!!! What kind of toothbrushes do you buy???!!! How about using a quality toothbrush? One that cleans well and does not lead to self-damage? But I guess if that was happening to you, you'd know and would have stopped using them.

I just paid $21 (including tax) for four replacement brush heads for my Oral B electric and the hand toothbrushes go for about $5.

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:06 pm

vnatale wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:12 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:29 pm
Man I change my toothbrush every month or so. It's something you put in your mouth every day, no need to let it get disgusting. They're 85 cents.
85 cents!!!! What kind of toothbrushes do you buy???!!! How about using a quality toothbrush? One that cleans well and does not lead to self-damage? But I guess if that was happening to you, you'd know and would have stopped using them.

I just paid $21 (including tax) for four replacement brush heads for my Oral B electric and the hand toothbrushes go for about $5.

Vinny
I just buy the cheap ones at the grocery store, they do a great job. I don't know what you mean by "self-damage," you mean to my mouth? I've been brushing my teeth for a really long time; I'm pretty good at not hurting myself ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ No dental issues.

Paying $5 for a toothbrush sounds pretty fucking insane to me. I don't really get the battery powered ones either, since I have muscles, but if it makes you feel good...
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:15 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:06 pm
vnatale wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:12 pm
Kriegsspiel wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 7:29 pm
Man I change my toothbrush every month or so. It's something you put in your mouth every day, no need to let it get disgusting. They're 85 cents.
85 cents!!!! What kind of toothbrushes do you buy???!!! How about using a quality toothbrush? One that cleans well and does not lead to self-damage? But I guess if that was happening to you, you'd know and would have stopped using them.

I just paid $21 (including tax) for four replacement brush heads for my Oral B electric and the hand toothbrushes go for about $5.

Vinny
I just buy the cheap ones at the grocery store, they do a great job. I don't know what you mean by "self-damage," you mean to my mouth? I've been brushing my teeth for a really long time; I'm pretty good at not hurting myself ^-^ ^-^ ^-^ No dental issues.

Paying $5 for a toothbrush sounds pretty fucking insane to me. I don't really get the battery powered ones either, since I have muscles, but if it makes you feel good...
You can do "self-damage" by using a brush with too hard bristles or brushing (or flossing) too aggressively. At one point I was guilty of the latter and was causing self-damage. My dentist noticed this and advised me to back off some, which I did.

I use the electric one in the morning and the non-electric (manual) one at night.

Dr. Ellie agrees with you that there is no need for an electric toothbrush. However, I already owned one (actually three) and its brushes cost about the same as the manual ones do.

Vinny
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by Kriegsspiel » Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:24 pm

vnatale wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:15 pm
You can do "self-damage" by using a brush with too hard bristles or brushing (or flossing) too aggressively. At one point I was guilty of the latter and was causing self-damage. My dentist noticed this and advised me to back off some, which I did.
Not me, no issues. I'm pretty sure I mastered brushing when I was a child, so there's hope for you yet if you want to stop throwing money away!
Dr. Ellie agrees with you that there is no need for an electric toothbrush. However, I already owned one (actually three) and its brushes cost about the same as the manual ones do.

Vinny
Sounds like they cost 6x as much as my manual ones do. Not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, but I'd just hate the idea of wasting money on something so unnecessary.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by thisisallen » Sat Dec 12, 2020 12:24 pm

Kriegsspiel wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:24 pm
vnatale wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:15 pm
You can do "self-damage" by using a brush with too hard bristles or brushing (or flossing) too aggressively. At one point I was guilty of the latter and was causing self-damage. My dentist noticed this and advised me to back off some, which I did.
Not me, no issues. I'm pretty sure I mastered brushing when I was a child, so there's hope for you yet if you want to stop throwing money away!
Dr. Ellie agrees with you that there is no need for an electric toothbrush. However, I already owned one (actually three) and its brushes cost about the same as the manual ones do.

Vinny
Sounds like they cost 6x as much as my manual ones do. Not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, but I'd just hate the idea of wasting money on something so unnecessary.
May be that the manual vs electric toothbrush difference lies in the greater amount of brushing the electric does. This is the advice of my hygienist who thinks that the greater amount of “passes” on the teeth is more useful.
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Sat Dec 12, 2020 5:53 pm

MangoMan wrote:
Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:08 pm
Ugh. I swore to myself I wouldn't comment on this thread anymore.

Stop being cheap about toothbrushes. They are NOT all the same. An electric is way better. Buy a rechargeable OralB Vitality for $20 and a supply of the small 'cross action' replacement heads. The amount you save on dentist and periodontist bills will be several orders of magnitude the additional cost of the brushes.

I have no doubt I said this earlier in this thread. If you're going to post anything here, please read the entire thread beforehand bc it almost certainly has already been covered.
Several nights ago I read everything that was in here, from the start.

I am almost certain that you'd not prior said any of the above, which is quite helpful.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by vnatale » Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:30 pm

For those of you who want to follow MangoMan's recommendation to use an electric toothbrush the following may be of value to you. Luckily of the three that I own one of them was THE one that they recommend. The Oral B Pro 1000.

The Best Electric Toothbrush
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/revi ... oothbrush/

By the way, this New York Times web site is an excellent, objective source for researching potential purchases.

Vinny
Above provided by: Vinny, who always says: "I only regret that I have but one lap to give to my cats." AND "I'm a more-is-more person."
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Re: The Permanent Tooth and Gum Care Regime

Post by boglerdude » Mon Dec 14, 2020 1:00 pm

^ Just ordered that a few hours ago. And some heads https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07NN1P7W1/
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